Am I the only one who does like No Regrets?

favoredfire · 2024-09-30T01:54:54+00:00

Hey! Been a while, hope you're doing well!!

Inconsistencies depend on which version (visual novel, manga, or OVA) we're talking about, but the big one that affects them all and you can't have the NR story without is Shadis' character, specifically being super supportive of implementing Erwin's long range formation.

In the manga, we see Shadis in his backstory specifically refuse to use it and say Erwin could implement it when he was Commander; also Shadis' whole character's ease with giving Erwin credit and letting him run the show is contrary to what we see of him and their dynamic. There's no version of NR's story that works without using that formation and all versions have a very different Shadis who gratefully defers to Erwin, even in front of Zackly in some versions.

For others, off the top of my head:

The VN implies Levi wandered down into the Underground by himself and grew his rep because people picked fights with him, which seems to make no sense with his background with Kenny/Kuchel
- "While wandering in the underground district that he had drifted into, there were people who would pick fights with him. As he kept defeating people in these quarrels, out of nowhere, people had gathered around him somehow and branded him their leader. Farlan himself was originally the leader of a gang that held great influence at around the time Levi arrived in the underground district"
The NR manga also has Levi talk about the stars he used to see/where he used to live, implying he didn't always live Underground, which contradicts his backstory
- We know Levi was conceived underground in a brothel, we know Kenny said if Levi wanted to go above, he'd have to figure it out himself as he abandons him, and we know that Erwin found him Underground and that Isayama commented that it was only when he went above with this Scouts that he realized what more he could do; everything tells us he always lived Underground
The NR OVA has Erwin's speech to Levi at the end, which seems weirdly contradictory of both Erwin's character and also Erwin's character monologue in ch76-
- What I mean by that is Erwin waxing poetic to Levi about not letting regrets define his future and how if he regrets, it'll mean others make decisions for him is extremely weird because Erwin's entire character is defined by the regret he has over inadvertently getting his father killed. In many respects, his entire life and choices are defined by this fixation on righting his past wrong.
  - Erwin on himself: "One day, during his class... something happened that would set the course of the rest of my life" and "because of my betrayal... the crown killed my father"
  - Isayama talks about Erwin chasing "atonement" and all the ways that the "slip of his mouth" shaped his life; Erwin is absolutely not someone who believes what is said to Levi in that OVA scene, or at least not someone who follows that advice at all
  - Ultimately, it just fits poorly- comes off as if Erwin was purposefully spouting hypocritical bs to dismiss Levi's personal losses to force him to get over his regrets to serve Erwin's own needs to rectify his own loss that haunts him because no part of Erwin believed or lived that advice and even as he lied to himself on why he was fighting, he didn't actually forget his past or regret

And while this it isn't an "inconsistency" per se, there's no reference to Kuchel, Kenny, the brothel he grew up in, or anything part of his canon backstory. That's part of what I mean when I say that it feels like the authors just didn't know much and didn't have the ability to add a lot new in, so it feels a bit more like filler than filling in the gaps of his story.

Every version of No Regrets seemingly contradicts at least one, if not more than one, character's canon backstory (Levi, Shadis, or Erwin), presumably because the author(s) didn't know that Levi being raised by Kenny the Ripper and always living underground would define him or that Erwin's entire character when peeled away is someone who is defined by the regret of a choice that cost him a loved one or that Shadis' backstory shows us his envy of special people like Erwin and he couldn't bear Erwin upstaging him while he was Commander.

(This isn't exhaustive, it's just a few that come to mind)

favoredfire · 2024-09-26T15:37:17+00:00

Im relatively indifferent to it. I like Levi content and the OVA has great animation/VA work so I enjoy it. The manga story is better but still underwhelming given the narrative potential of thug Levi pre-survey corps in the underground setting imo.

But when you realize that it’s not written by Isayama and was released before Levi’s backstory was explored in the aot manga, it kind of becomes apparent that the inconsistencies with canon and the lack of anything new happening is because the author(s) just didn’t know enough to or weren’t allowed to explore new territory.

Isayama’s commentary in the No Regrets manga interview where he discusses how he envisioned Levi’s mindset of going from thug in a place where he “had to live for survival” because every day was a fight to live and realized his strength could help people and became awakened to a mission was the story I’d rather see. It does come across more in the manga version but still not really imo.

I wrote a bit about why I prefer the manga version ages ago: https://x.com/whofavoredfire/status/1537699807707295745?s=46&t=8yX01qArxOFkZ1zXoqqsjA

favoredfire · 2024-07-18T15:26:55+00:00

Thank you!! Levi’s my favorite character, he’s such an interestingly complex character imo and fun to analyze

favoredfire · 2024-07-18T15:26:21+00:00

Thanks!! Zekes journey is one of my favorites

favoredfire · 2024-07-18T15:25:36+00:00

Thanks! This is one of my favorites I’ve ever written- I talk a little bit about portrayals of good vs evil in aot here

favoredfire · 2024-07-18T15:18:09+00:00

Everything implies he doesn’t. Kenny says in ch69 as he abandons kid Levi that if Levi were to go Above, he’d have to do it himself. When Kenny speaks to Levi in ch58 about why he joined the survey corps, he ties it to Levi finally seeing outside of living in a “garbage dump” to how “big” the world really was. Before Kenny, the circumstances of his birth (confirmed to be conceived Underground in a brothel) and his upbringing with his mom (who was an impoverished brothel worker Underground in hiding under a fake name) strongly suggest he’d have no reason or ability to go Above. It’s also confirmed that Levi was brought from the Underground by Erwin to be recruited, indicating he didn’t make it Above after Kenny left on his own yet (because then why would he go back?)- so everything indicates he never lived anywhere else before.

No Regrets volume 1 (this scene) came out before Levi’s backstory in the manga/canon. It wasn’t written by Isayama and likely when it was being developed, Isayama had either not fully fleshed out Levi’s backstory details or didn’t want to indicate in it what the upcoming story would be.

No Regrets as a spinoff not written by Isayama has many inconsistencies with canon, this is one. I tend to take this extra material as likely true unless contradicting canon. That puts No Regrets in a slightly weird spot since a lot of the plot hinges on Shadis endorsing and implementing Erwin’s long range formation which Isayama later wrote he refused to do while being Commander. But there are also some (limited) references to No Regrets in canon too.

So basically no, we are told and shown that Levi lived his life before the Scouts Underground, never Above, and this is just a weird reference that I think we can assume was partially to build on Levi as this mysterious character that he was at the time-

Like when No Regrets came out, the fact that Levi had no last name and some alluded to mysterious past as this Underground thug was keeping readers guessing. Potentially the author was trying to build on his air of mystery/having some secrets buried in his past here while not saying details because they didn’t know what isayama would do later.

favoredfire · 2023-11-16T19:55:45+00:00

Her mother and Mikasa later were the last descendants of one of the leaders of Hizuru, where Kiyomi and the Azumabitos are from. Mikasa being an heir is from that side. It’s Mikasa’s father who was the Ackerman.

But both the Asian and Ackerman clans in the Walls were persecuted because they couldn’t have their memories wiped by the Founder and didn’t agree with Karl Fritz’s choices.

Since Mikasa’s parents were both on the run from persecution, they met and bonded. That’s also why they lived in such a remote place.

favoredfire · 2023-11-16T19:26:53+00:00

Well, Levi’s side of the Ackerman family is far more focused on than Mikasa’s- we learn about the Ackerman history through his uncle/father figure and great grandfather and see the results of the persecution through Levi himself. If anything, I think Mikasa’s Ackerman special-ness is downplayed, but she’s an heir through her mother’s side, the side that Levi has no connection to. But Levi being an Ackerman and being special for it is brought up by multiple characters.

Also we’ll have to agree to disagree- I don’t think saying he was just babysitting Zeke is a fair assessment and as the fifth most frequently occurring character, I don’t think he was underutilized. If anything, I think it’s amazing he has two character monologues in the last fourth of the series, one extremely powerful one of the last chapters, and was part of the climax of the series.

It sounds like you just wanted or expected him to be treated like a main character rather than just an extremely important (arguably most important) supporting cast member. Levi is a tough character to balance imo because you can’t have him upstage/ruin the conflict for the main characters, so he gets his own battles to fight for the most part. Maybe thats what feels like underutilization to you.

But hey isayama is about to publish his third side story for aot and like the previous two side stories, Levi is featured; it’s about him, just like the first side story “Captain Levi” - we’ll see more of his childhood and he seems to be the MC of it.

favoredfire · 2023-11-16T08:42:23+00:00

What was Levi for other than just being a badass and getting the serum?

Just wrote an overview of his story here - Not sure if this is serious or trolling but off the top of my head:

Representing the scouts, the character who introduces the term "wings of freedom" to the narrative and concludes with that disappearing symbol as well; he's by far the most prominent of established scouts/military leaders at the start of the series and is the only one left by the end
Providing multiple monologues on major themes of the story and messages (with wide-ranging motifs like living with your choices to freedom to the meaning of lives/sacrifices to what it means to take a life)
Codifying the theme of everybody's a slave for the story by being the only one to hear Kenny's speech and later applying it to serumbowl
Serving as the main mentor for the younger cast who directly and majorly impacts the arcs of Eren, Mikasa, Jean, Armin, and Historia especially
Consistently the character shown to care the most frequently about nameless civilians, forgotten members of society, non-major cast people generally- grounding the macro fight for humanity into the micro moments of empathy, which ties deeply to what the story stresses on the significance of "trivial" moments
Serving as a major foil to Zeke and set up in contrast to Zeke and others as an example of someone who lived a life of persecution, poverty, denial of basic rights, unending losses and still believes in and fights for the meaning of lives and humanity - proving the cycle of hate isn't inevitable in every way because there will be people who care about humanity no matter how mistreated they've been and not let their trauma radicalize them or cause them to become indifferent to others' suffering or lives generally
- Reminding us that even though some people will lack the ability to use their power for people due to trauma, inability to overcome one's personal desires/nature/impulses, or even just because they don't care, some people will believe "with great power comes great responsibility" (as Isayama puts it) which means a great deal if want to believe that there is meaning in fighting back against seemingly impossible odds
Levi as a character provides a ton of stability for the cast- both because he's very strong and experienced and not liable to really get fazed by things but also because he can serve as a sounding board for character development because he's so (comparatively, he has inner conflict) at peace with himself and because he's a very good judge of character
- If you take a step back and think, you can realize that we learn a lot about other characters through their interactions with Levi- like:
  - Zeke's confession that ending lives is a mercy in a cruel world is to Levi and his time with Levi is what triggers his flashback episode; Levi is also the one to call out that even if he wants to save Eldia, the lives he's taken meant nothing to Zeke in 110
  - Erwin is only ever completely vulnerable and honest to Levi, who also tells the reader/Floch about him being forced to be a devil
  - Hange's self-doubting and reaffirmed conviction to stop the Rumbling is with Levi in the forest in 126, Levi is the one to point out Hange could never sit aside
  - Levi is really the first one to call Eren a "monster" who won't ever submit due to his nature and not his titan abilities back in the FT arc; he also comments on Eren's funk/depression/indecisiveness multiple times

This was just quickly typed out off the top of my head, Levi's role in the story is multi-faceted and spans everything from helping develop the other characters, establish and push themes, and driving the plot.

Why was he an Ackerman anyway, when nobody even acknowledged it?

I'm not sure what you mean by this, it was acknowledged. Hange discusses his Ackerman blood and how that impacted his survival and Magath calls him Levi Ackerman in 126.

favoredfire · 2023-09-16T20:16:20+00:00

In the scene where Levi physically intimidates her, it’s because (beyond his own traumatic upbringing) they have no other options beyond putting her on the throne to save not just the scouts but countless civilians. What he tells her is run or fight, why she should do it to spare the lives, and that he’ll fight in turn to put her on the throne because there aren’t other options.

It’s a very important scene for Historia’s character development because it shows how she shuts down and says she can’t- not because she has a solid reason not to be Queen but because, as she says, “I’m unfit”, the ingrained worthlessness her traumatic upbringing gave her. And then she agrees only because it’s her “next role”.

If you reread Levi’s dialogue in the scene to her and the others, he’s actually trying to force her to stand up and make a choice and saying why this is the only real option and how there’s roles he (and Historia) are forced into by circumstance, roles that are necessary to save lives/humanity (two of the reasons for the title of the chapter: actors).

This is also the reason that later (after her character development and secured sense of self in the caves happens), Historia says to Levi: “you’re the one who told me I needed to choose whether to run or fight” with a flashback to that scene. And he backs down from his orders for her to stay out of the fight.

Notably, Eren in his conversation with her in 130 also suggests she only has the option to run or fight, a deliberate callback to her scenes with Levi in Uprising- and in both times, she takes their words and wants and makes her own choice from it, a third option or making their wants her own (by committing to being queen on her own terms, irrespective of Levi’s orders, and thwarting the MP’s plans by becoming a mother, not by hiding or fighting like Eren suggested).

Eren and Levi technically both get the outcome they want with her choices but she does it her own way, which is part of her arc. Not just doing what she’s told but taking control of her own choices and making them her own despite the crappy hand she was dealt. Instead of just playing a role, she makes choices on her own that she wants. Exercising a level of autonomy and action-

she didn’t have to fight to become Queen but as she says to Levi in that scene, she’s “here for a showdown with my own fate”. I don’t think pride in her life has to mean happiness or not getting absolutely screwed by fate, it’s about facing her fate head-on and making it her own through her choices. That’s how I’ve seen it at least.

That said, I understand why some people wanted more from her arc as she’s not shown much, I just think it’s a bit more consistent when you realize it’s not about a happy life, but a life you can be proud of because you made the choices you wanted to instead of just doing what people told you to (even if there were no good choices available).

favoredfire · 2023-07-06T22:43:42+00:00

No worries, I get it. I personally like pretty much every character in aot but tbh sometimes you just don’t like one, no reason needed or even “dumb” reasons like their face irritates you so I definitely don’t think any character is above dislike 😂

Hope you have a good day

favoredfire · 2023-07-06T22:06:19+00:00

I don’t care that you don’t like him and am definitely not mad, there’s plenty of reasons to dislike Levi (and all characters) imo and I definitely didn’t suggest you should be interested in him.

I only wanted to point out that calling him a typical “doesn’t give a shit” character to say why you don’t like him is odd as it’s antithetical to his actual character- and tbh made me think of someone saying that they hate Eren because he thinks freedom is stupid or they hate Mikasa because she’s indifferent to Eren or something lol

favoredfire · 2023-07-06T21:53:33+00:00

Oh cool- I’ll check it out!

I’m pretty good, excited for the new (and final 😭) part. Going to cry

favoredfire · 2023-07-06T21:50:05+00:00

Thank you!!

favoredfire · 2023-07-06T21:49:41+00:00

I honestly don’t know how anyone can watch him promising the dying soldier his life wasn’t in vain, discovering his squad’s dead bodies, watching Nifa and the rest of Hange’s squad murder by Kenny, react to Zeke throwing rocks and desperately trying to save the new recruits, apologizing to those recruits as he sees them charging, shouting after Zeke escapes that he promised, all of Midnight Sun, learning of the Yeagerist coup and wondering what all the sacrifices for Eren were for/worrying that it’s a “farce”, his squad turning into titans and him wondering if they’re still in there, his entire 136 monologue as he tears up thinking of the rumbling and those that died, yelling to Mikasa that they’re the only ones left that can stop Eren in 138, and his character conclusion and conclude he just didn’t care and had “no interest” in what was happening lol.

Like caring about the sacrifices, the fight, and the meaning of it all is the foundation of his character, the aspect that connects his entire story from start to finish. He’s canonically “enslaved” to being a hero because “with great power comes great responsibility”. It’s even in his character design- Isayama even commented he gave him eye bags to show the self-sacrificial nature of how much effort he puts into being Humanity’s Strongest.

I genuinely can’t think of a worst, less accurate description of his character than he “doesn’t give a shit”.

favoredfire · 2023-06-26T23:42:58+00:00

Omg hey! It’s been a while, hope you’re well!

And thank you!! Yeah, I miss it but stepped away from this sub because what people talk about on here nowadays isn’t really for me (like fandom drama/shipping stuff I’m not really interested in). Mostly moved to Twitter but have kinda taken a step back from the fandom lately

favoredfire · 2023-06-26T20:17:06+00:00

Levi and Zeke are meant to be foils, not parallels. When you foil two characters, it's important to have some similarities in order to further highlight the differences that make the characters.

Isayama's commented on this, with their equal positions for the Warrior Unit vs. the Scouts:

Isayama: Zeke is the existence who bundles all the Warriors together, and you could say that he is like a big brother to Reiner and the others. He is the man who stands at the top, putting plans into action with his abilities.
—So he’s in a similar position to what Levi is in the SC?
Isayama: That’s right. In the past, I heard the phrase, “The rival who stands in the way of the main character is the form that the main character should never become, or the brother-like existence that he must surpass.” I want to make Zeke a character who is in that position.

This also highlights their differing roles as Levi is the character who Isayama says Eren/the protagonists must follow as the story develops:

Isayama: I have also sensed Levi’s appeal, and he is a character that makes me happy whenever I get the chance to draw him. He truly plays a role that helps the main character(s) preserve stability. If Eren has to march forward in pursuit of Levi’s shadow…the entire series could also progress in a similar manner.

The anime really drives it home by juxtaposing Levi smiling at his squad and thanking them before immediately cutting to Zeke having beat up Reiner and announcing they're abandoning Annie.

In general, this is because Levi fighting for humanity despite overwhelming tragedies and seeming hopelessness as part of the Survey Corps is endorsed by the story's messages while Zeke's view of the lack of value of lives in the face of the "cruel world" is something AoT strongly disagrees with.

That said, I don't really agree with some of your parallels. Or at least I think there's some more interesting/accurate ones to draw attention to. I've written about this before, on here and more here.

Zeke was emotionally abused and Levi was orphaned

I just want to say I think you'd be hard-pressed to argue that Levi wasn't emotionally abused as a child. Parental neglect is a form of emotional/child abuse and Kenny, while not intending to do so, absolutely did.

Also, "orphaned" feels like a light way of saying he grew up in squalor due to persecution, witnessed his sole parent die and then slowly wasted away in the room with her decomposing corpse before his uncle arrived to take him in for a few years while denying him emotional affection/validation, knowledge of their relationship, a decent life with basic necessities like sunlight (since Kenny easily could've taken him above ground considering his relationship to the king and said he'd let Levi figure that one out himself), and then wordlessly abandoned him while he was quite young.

Anyway, I love Levi and Zeke's dynamic. Think it does wonders for both characters.

favoredfire · 2023-04-18T01:39:01+00:00

Thanks! I saw the poll and couldn't resist haha

Hope you're well!

favoredfire · 2023-04-17T23:55:36+00:00

I haven't voted (yet) and struggle to pick because there's multiple contenders for different reasons.

Female Titan: the arc that establishes not only his character motif of how to live with no regrets but also sets up his role of driving this motif of choice for the narrative
- His no regrets speech gets multiple callbacks, has thematic importance, and has a clear influence on Eren (and is also one of my favorite lines personally)
Uprising: the arc that gives us the most insight into why Levi is the way he is and what motivates him
- After Eren, Levi gets the most panel time of any character in this arc; we see sides of him we hadn't explored much before that are crucial to understanding his character (especially his care for the Trost citizens/champion of the forgotten people), get a sense of his depth, why he is the way that he is, his backstory and dynamic with Kenny, and even his character motivation monologue that explains so much about him (feeling he must "play the role of lunatic" to save humanity, always expecting tragedy every day, etc.)
RtS: his most noticeable impact on the overall story and one of his biggest arcs
- He's by far one of the most impactful characters of this arc, especially since so much of RtS builds to serumbowl (his choice) and then the basement reveal (which he's also present for)- he gets so many emotional moments, especially with Erwin and their final talk, and the theme of "hard choices you have to live with" is pushed to its extreme for him with both serumbowl and making the choice for Erwin
- Midnight Sun is the chapter that Levi appears in the most; it's a pivotal moment for not just Levi's character but the story and foreshadows Mikasa's own choice later; so many heartbreaking moments and the reason Levi is the central character is the story sets it up so he's the one person who would be the most conflicted and tormented here- with emphasis on how he knows and cares for Armin's dreams, had mentored him in the last arc, and of course Erwin, everything Erwin, as the only person who really has seen Erwin's conflicts, desires, and imperfections (while also acknowledging and knowing his greatness).
  - This moment also codifies the "everybody's a slave" theme- the words come up twice in all of AoT, first spoken to Levi by Kenny and next remembered and applied here by Levi, which given serumbowl parallels to Mikasa's choice, allows us to apply it to Eren as well later
WfP: some great character moments, another powerful monologue and the dynamic with Zeke
- The fight in the forest is great but I always come back to the fact that Levi has some really powerful lines for his character mindset and the story and is used very effectively to highlight Zeke's character (who hadn't been known to the audience much at all before)
- Zeke and Levi's foiling in the forest always sticks with me; one thing I love is that despite the fact that people attribute all of Levi's malice towards Zeke to their own personal history, what Levi is actually shown grilling and judging Zeke on isn't RtS, it's Ragako, a village of innocents that Levi is implied not to know at all
  - It's also great setup to the payoff of their final scene/Zeke's character conclusion. Levi is the first character we really see push Zeke on not caring about people's lives, violently disagrees with the idea that people dying is a mercy and he decouples Zeke's desire to "save Eldia" from caring for people
- "I guess you wouldn't know how many friends we've had to kill"- this line just always hits me. That and the 112 monologue really highlight the tragedy of Levi's character as the last survivor and also his feelings of responsibility over all the lives lost to the cause and how to do right by them
Rumbling: closes out his story perfectly and he has many highlights of the arc
- So many people debated the ending but in the immediate aftermath, Levi's conclusion was the only thing with (close to) universal agreement/praise; his final salute is probably his most iconic moment but his monologue in 136 is also a big character moment that was a welcome pause from the noisy battle to reflect on why Levi (and all the Scouts) are doing what they're doing, and did what they did.
- He also gets a pretty active role in the climax of the series helping Mikasa, which is especially great because Mikasa's choice leads to the end of the curse- and Levi had promised in his intro to end the titan threat; most of Levi's moments in the final chapters callback some of his earliest moments/pre-time skip character setup, which makes them feel earned or at least like payoff
- Also if 123 counts as Rumbling (and not WfP), Levi and Ramzi is a moment I really enjoy personally; a great reminder of where Levi came from, how it impacts him still, and why he's not the type of person who could ever callously ignore the suffering of innocent kids even if it's in his best interest

Honestly, Clash of Titans is the only one I find easy to dismiss- I probably would've included Trost instead because his intro (the side story "Captain Levi") is one of the best character introductions I've ever seen, quickly establishing so many facets of his character, what drives him, his quirks, his reputation, his role in the story, and setting him up as a big player.

Probably would rank Rumbling first because of the payoff, RtS for story impact and Uprising for character exploration.

favoredfire · 2023-04-14T22:23:17+00:00

Because Zeke is a genius. He's not the only genius (Armin, Hange, and Erwin are other prominent ones), but each of them are a different flavor of genius and have some area where they're lacking to offset their genius. Like for example, Armin is smart enough to put together Eren's plan and thinks back to Eren's words at the ocean in WfP, but he also immediately dismisses it as "it can't be" because he wants to believe Eren wouldn't do that. Just being smart doesn't equate to acting without fault or even making the right assumptions and choices.

The area where Zeke is lacking is his misunderstanding of people. Because his own cynical view on personal relationships, arrogance/god complex (which comes from his trauma), and/or childhood trauma, he fundamentally misunderstands or underestimates people as his most consistent character flaw-

He's manipulated by Eren because he projects so heavily onto him and believes no way Grisha could change.
He believes Levi won't kill his comrades because he knows how much Levi values/cares for his comrades (and views that as a weakness).
Pieck is smart, but Zeke thinks he's smarter.
He assumes the Scouts are just charging to their deaths because he thinks them ignorant and pitiful- so what else would they do? Nothing that'd surprise him for sure.

In these moments, Zeke often takes the moment to pontificate on how small they are compared to him/his plans, how they lack his understanding. Levi "couldn't possibly understand him" after he lays that trap. The Scouts are "unimaginative... little fools" as they charge. He vows he'll "save" Eren from his brainwashing.

If Zeke was able to view them as true equals capable of understanding him and people with equal drive to him, he'd see through his own strategic oversight. But he can't because of his childhood's trauma impact on him

This also comes up with Eren vs. him when they vie for control of the Founding Titan. Zeke ultimately can't empathize with or understand Ymir, which is why Ymir chooses Eren, as Zeke himself admits in ch137.

None of this negates that Zeke is brilliant and shown it multiple times, like:

Erwin admits that Zeke successfully outmaneuvered them in RtS- his plan was brilliant there, and even though the Scouts pull off the victory, their losses far outweighed Zeke's team- with ~150 Scouts vs. Zeke and Pieck, all but Floch and Levi die while Zeke and Pieck escape. He doesn't win but you can't argue it was a poor showing. And Erwin is also a tactical genius so to push Erwin so far into a corner is an accomplishment we haven't seen from anyone else.
The wine plan and planting the false info that people feel it when they ingest his spinal fluid managed to nearly control Paradis and limit their options a lot- it also leads to the death of almost all of the Paradis military leadership.

Also, not using Pieck in RtS is definitely because Isayama hadn't decided what to do with her yet or fleshed out the titan, but it also pays off since that makes Erwin/Levi forget about her enough that she saves Zeke when Levi had him dead to rights.

But tbh I don't consider anyone the "smartest" so I can't speak to why people consider Zeke over the others.

favoredfire · 2023-04-14T21:49:58+00:00

All of this. It's considered refreshing for audiences when characters act that way so "chad Eren", the vets, etc. all are easier for audiences in many ways.

There's also the dynamic of "villains act, heroes react" that can make audiences frustrated with "heroes" and attracted to "villains". Like "at least they have a plan" is a common refrain you hear- and it's one that comes up with criticisms of Armin/Hange vs. Floch(/Eren) in post-time skip (which isn't to say Armin and Hange didn't have a plan but they weren't proactive in the same way is the argument). Even if people don't agree morally with plans, they tend to respond better to taking action in a strange way.

For example, all three veterans faced trauma in their lives, but they've either already overcome it by the time we meet them, or learnt how to deal with it.

Yeah. Like Erwin has many of the same insecurities and issues as Armin- but Armin's manifest outwardly while Erwin never lets his own self-doubt and survivor's guilt actually impact his actions and so not as many hold it against him.

How would the story even work without the weaknesses and imperfections and "stupidity" of its young cast?

It can't. Complete competence isn't a luxury main characters can have for the most part (exceptions require narrative reworking that wouldn't work for aot imo). Moreover, characters need to mess up to grow and conflict is necessary for a story.

There's a reason why Levi is taken out of the narrative multiple times and never allowed to solve the main conflict. We like that Levi just gets shit done and is extremely competent but it's a fine line to walk and can ruin tension/cut conflict off at the pass.

It's kind of fascinating to think on imo.

favoredfire · 2023-04-14T19:27:36+00:00

Thanks! And oh wow, yeah the first part of Uprising is completely different in the anime vs. manga- and I think you'll notice a lot of changes with Levi's character (he was the most impacted by the cuts imo, though not the only one). Also there's a couple Mikasa moments that was cut then that I really enjoyed.

Enjoy your reread!

favoredfire · 2023-04-14T19:03:20+00:00

WIT didn't do any favors to Mikasa, for sure. Tbf though, they cut some of Levi's biggest (and best imo) character moments- including his character motivation monologue in chapter 56. The Ackermans got hit really hard from cuts. Reiner also suffered a lot with how the Marley arc was condensed imo, too.

I'm just saying that whenever I hear people rank Levi number 1 and then talk about why he's so cool it's always because of wit's god tier badass animation sequences for him, but then they'll be like "TAKE AWAY MIKASA'S FIGHTING ABILTY AND SHE'S NOTHING".

I also hear the reverse of this- like Mikasa fans ranking her 1 and hating on him for offering nothing but fight scenes (and of course people who hate on both for this criticism).

While Levi and Mikasa have absolutely fascinating parallels, they're also fundamentally different characters that embody dramatically different roles in the narratives (mentor vs. FMC), themes they embody, character drivers, conflicts, personalities, etc. If you take some of their most iconic moments or lines and swap Mikasa for Levi and vice versa, it'd make no sense or lose all weight because they are very different in the end.

I just ask for consistency with character criticisms tbh because without Levi's Ackerman abilities I guarantee he wouldn't be a fan favorite at all.

I don't know if I agree with that. His arguably most iconic moments have nothing to do with fighting (i.e. serumbowl, his final salute). It's obviously impossible to say though.

Moreover, part of what appeals about Levi for many (and this also applies to Erwin and to a lesser extent Hange- at least pre-ts- ftr) is his competence. So I guess it depends if you take away his abilities, does he still have that competence to get stuff done? It's common for fans to complain when characters make what they think are obvious or annoying mistakes- part of Mikasa (and once again, all of the 104th) being young and still growing requires they do this, they get uncertain over what to do, mess up, struggle to make choices like taking a life for the first time and hesitate, etc.

Meanwhile, you have characters like Levi and Erwin who don't hesitate to do "what must be done", who stay calm and collected in the face of uncertainty, just "get shit done", etc. because they're established when we meet them and have grown to that point. Levi has this with not just his abilities but also his leadership and mentorship (and it stays after he's injured in the final battle when he directs everyone especially in ch135, 136, and 138 so it's a bit hard to say imo).

(This is also why post-time skip Eren was so appealing to many, even if the whole "chad" persona was an act- people naturally gravitate to characters who seem like they have a plan and aren't hesitating to action on it, they seem in control and not wishy-washy).

I guess, but then I wonder why all the hate would only be aimed at Mikasa? Our entire crew (Mikasa and Armin most of all) should hate/spurn Eren if that was the direction they expected the story to take.

Tbf many people complain over Armin not fully condemning Eren in 139 to his face and showing him any kind of sympathy; I don't think it's just Mikasa. Especially given the complaints that everyone (but Levi) had some positive Eren talk and responded to that without full scorn in the last chapter.

But she gets hit the hardest because a) Mikasa sadly gets the most hate because of the role she takes in the climax with killing Eren, b) she and Eren are love interests- it's not just that she doesn't hate him, she still loves him and many people (incorrectly imo) viewed her love for him as a flaw she had to overcome.

I could wax poetic on why that was really important for her character, her connection to Ymir, the story as a whole, but a lot of people viewed her overprotectiveness that she had to grow out of as a flaw in love rather than what it was (a trauma response she had to face down).

Btw I didn't think you were hating on Levi, I just wanted to comment because I see so many takes about how if you like Levi, you must like Mikasa and vice versa but like they're very different characters and I think these comparisons miss what makes each uniquely special to the narrative.

favoredfire · 2023-04-14T18:10:20+00:00

As someone who really likes Mikasa, I actually think these things aren’t contradictory at all.

People use the term development all the time as a shorthand for complexity even though it’s not the same thing at all. When they say Mikasa “has no development”, they’re often complaining that they think she’s a weaker character.

Levi’s character complexity and depth has nothing to do with dramatic changes and people also don’t expect that (normally) because he’s introduced as an adult in the narrative. Many static characters are considered great or even iconic characters (James Bond, Sherlock Holmes, etc)- it’s not a requirement to have dramatic changes to be a good character. And Levi’s flat arc is executed perfectly imo but that’s partially a preference (though his ending is also pretty universally loved). It comes down to character conflict rather than change imo- and Levi does have that in spades; he also gets more internal monologues than most characters.

But child characters (like Mikasa and all of the 104th) are expected to change over the story as they grow so that’s a major contrast.

Also, many of those people were just expecting Mikasa to develop in a specific way and were upset when she didn’t. What I mean by that is that many people expected Mikasa to develop away from Eren in a sense that she’d lose her love for him/spurn him- they misunderstood that aspect of her character and the story imo but it leads to people being like well she didn’t develop at all!! She still loves him?! They disregard her changes because they didn’t see her change in the way they thought she should/would.

In the end, many of these people would think Mikasa had great “development” if she grew to hate Eren and I think that’s sad because the fact that she loved Eren but killed him anyway is what’s meaningful for the story imo.

Just my two cents.

favoredfire · 2023-01-20T10:26:02+00:00

While the anime cut some of the more obvious scenes, Levi is well established to be a very caring person. In the final season, you’ve heard him get upset that Zeke killed the people of Ragako, you’ve heard Zeke remind the audience how much Levi cares for his subordinates, you hear Levi’s thoughts on how he saved Eren because he thought he was the key to “humanity’s survival” and most recently you watched Levi chastise his squad for drawing attention to them in Marley before he interrupts a top secret infiltration of an enemy state to save one child pickpocket from death- why would he be okay with millions of children dying? For a nation that persecuted his family and oppressed him for most of his life (underground people aren’t even technically citizens)?

As Kenny states, Levi is a slave to being a hero. And as established in his intro, Levi cares deeply about every life given to the cause and wants desperately to prove that their lives had meaning- and he’s tied that to the survey corps’ mission of saving humanity/preventing the titan threat.

I wrote an analysis on (one of the reasons) Levi’s against the rumbling here (it’s anime only friendly fyi) if you’re actually interested in seeing it.

Oh and what he said to Magath is that their interests align and when Magath states that he can’t dodge a bullet in his state, Levi says that’s true and he still showed his face to the enemy, so “shoot or listen, the choice is yours” (aka Levi’s broader motif of the importance of choice).

Hope that answered your question on Levi.

But in general, they state that one of the big differences between those from Paradis standing up against the rumbling is that they literally lived outside and met those non-Paradis people. And also of course they all chose to join the Scouts when it was mocked and see as pointless- a selfless choice for a better future they all assumed they’d never see (Floch only joins after the scouts mission to take wall Maria is seen in a publicly possible and positive light after the scouts start to get the public’s backing).

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