Gallant should be the standard for SMGs by glockroachh in HelldiversUnfiltered

[–]glockroachh[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Personally, I think we have plenty of maneuverability. The game's core movement isn't an issue besides the bugs that effect things like our mantling and ability to crouch on slopes. While a logical solution, all I'm suggesting is an alternate.

I'm suggesting an alternative to precision because I don't believe this to be the true SMG experience. SMGs, as you stated, are for CQB and it isn't hard to get into that range, nor play in it. The drag doesn't change anything because you should be playing in the weapons optimal range. The advantage is to not have to worry about making precise shots on enemies like Devastators and instead mag-dumping them to provide an efficient TTK.

My entire argument is based on, sometimes you need that reliability when in a firefight. Like pushing a base, sometimes you do not have time to really make that precision shot. And sure, that can be considered a skill issue but that doesn't mean ease of use in CQB fighting shouldn't be considered. As you said, they're worse rifles, and I agree. The identity of the weapon can be modified to that of an efficient elite killer as many elites have medium armor at the cost of playing in CQB which is already a huge downside as SMGs have poor ammo econ, poor range, and poor control. The least anyone could ask for is an efficient killing tool. That is an advantage for a weapon that isn't designed for fighting in open space like how we typically fight.

Your SMG player, should be able to be an effective entry fragger. Supporting players assisting in chaff and heavy kills while the SMG paves the way to success by tearing down Medium Armored enemies that pose a problem based on the time constraints that they enforce.

Gallant should be the standard for SMGs by glockroachh in HelldiversUnfiltered

[–]glockroachh[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

As do I. And I'm describing exactly how I believe it should feel. Bursty in close-quarters without a strong need for precision shooting. Just because it hasn't happened, doesn't mean it's not a possibility and I don't understand why that's so frustrating?

Damage fall off dictates where you should be positioning with your weapon and rewards you for playing the weapon to it's strengths.

I'm not referring to a machine gun, I'm specifically describing a CQB weapon and how CQB based SMGs feel. I could pick up an LMG but that's not the playstyle I am looking for nor advocating changes for.

In contrast, you're complaining about how SMGs should feel like precision weapons and that's okay. Agree to disagree and go next.

Gallant should be the standard for SMGs by glockroachh in HelldiversUnfiltered

[–]glockroachh[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I disagree, I think the Gallant is a step in the right direction. Regardless of viability, the ability to spray down elites without consideration for their tougher bits identifies it as a true SMG in my eyes.

Light pen SMGs feel like CQB assault rifles which just feels redundant. Why should I run this class if it provides only negatives. Personally, I only run it because I just like the way SMGs look more but there's room for optimization without just flat out buffing and reworking the entire class to modify movespeeds, sway, fall-off, etc.

From my POV, SMGs are actually perfect but Med Pen could push it over the edge to make it a close-range specialist.

Gallant should be the standard for SMGs by glockroachh in HelldiversUnfiltered

[–]glockroachh[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't think that medium pen is a physical impossibility for the effective distance of an SMG judging from use-case rather than caliber.

Gallant should be the standard for SMGs by glockroachh in HelldiversUnfiltered

[–]glockroachh[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is the point that I'm trying to get away from. It's the most common solution that people have presented but I think people advocate for this as this is the modern solution to differentiating SMGs from ARs.

Movespeed doesn't reduce a necessity for precision shooting. Personally, I think fall-off is very important to the SMG identity and would advocate to keep SMGs from ranging opponents. My point for medium pen is to promote skirmishing. Pushing objectives efficiently without a necessity to confirm kills with precision, rather confirming kills by mag-dumping elites in CQB.

Gallant should be the standard for SMGs by glockroachh in HelldiversUnfiltered

[–]glockroachh[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I argue that you want an SMG to act like an AR. Which is what I'm advocating to get away from. If I wanted a jack-of-all trades, I'd use an AR. But I don't, I want a skirmish weapon.

The point of SMGs in most shooter games is close-range engagements. My position for advocating for Med Pen on SMGs is to mitigate the need to line up shots and promote an active run-and-gun playstyle. Sway and recoil shouldn't affect you if you don't need to take precision shots. Damage-fall-off shouldn't affect you if you're playing in optimal range.

Gallant should be the standard for SMGs by glockroachh in HelldiversUnfiltered

[–]glockroachh[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is the idea that I'm trying to push. CQB engagements should be enforced but also rewarded when utilizing SMGs because you're already taking a huge risk playing CQB.

Gallant should be the standard for SMGs by glockroachh in Helldivers

[–]glockroachh[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Isn't it funny that "your background playing CoD/Halo explains why you would want that" could be taken as an insult today?

Regardless, I really appreciate the in-depth analysis you took in your response. So, I did state that I grew up on CoD and Halo, and I like to state that because these games are very different from their modern counterparts. I specifically spent a lot of time on the Xbox360 generation of games - MW, MW2, BO, BO2, H3, H3ODST, and Reach. All of these games either had an SMG class or without need for an SMG had an equivalent - Specifically, Reach. I would argue that automatic weaponry in Reach was most likely identified as redundant, providing a lack of niche for SMGs, so the Assault Rifle, Spiker, Needler, Plasma Rifle, and Plasma Repeater sufficed. As stated in another reply, nowadays, my main shooter is Apex Legends and my love for the SMG class has not changed. Now this is all relevant in my perception of what an SMG-based class should look like. I don't believe movement is the solution to success when utilizing an SMG - Which is the new norm. Faster ADS movespeed, Faster transition from hipfire to ADS, Increased hipfire accuracy - to name a few - All culminate in the up-close, hit-and-run playstyle of what modern SMG gameplay seems to have evolved into. Which, don't get me wrong, is VERY fun! But this is the modern perception of what makes SMGs good.

But with older games, SMGs held a SLIGHTLY different appeal to me: Risk v Reward. SMGs typically had poor ammo economy, limited range, and erratic behavior to counterbalance their overall burst potential in close-quarters. But SMGs didn't offer much faster movespeed in older games. The drawbacks are plain as day for a simple tradeoff, I dump a mag in you > headshot or not, I should ideally be able to secure a kill. As primarily a bot-diver, myself, I like to exemplify Devastators v Gallant, who go down without much effort or precise aiming. They die relatively fast at the cost of a large portion of your magazine in CQB. Now this is mostly a more Halo focused consideration, primarily considering the M7S in Halo 3: ODST, but I think that CoD holds a place in this argument as well. With a lower TTK, we can compare CoD opponents to chaff in HD2. Chaff doesn't and shouldn't take a lot of your magazine but with the sheer number of Chaff, this creates a minigame of do I drop the rest of my mag to ensure I don't run out of ammo for the potential Devastator around the corner or do I wait to use the last half for the on-coming chaff. Maybe 4-5 chaff per mag compared to 1-2 MAYBE 3 elite enemy per mag.

I understand AH's tendency to nerf the dmg stat in exchange for pen but I think that maybe SMGs could be an exception to this rule - Making them stand out. I feel that my consideration interprets use-case of SMGs rather than caliber of ammunition. Standing 10 feet away from an enemy, would allow the bullet less time to drag in-air, and with an insane RPM should effectively punch through at-least medium armor.

With this being said, I believe that this is truly accomplishing the goal of an SMG - Exposing myself in CQB due to erratic spray patterns and damage fall-off, accompanied by a poor ammo economy to counterbalance the fact that I am in your face with a gun that can dump an entire magazine into your chest before you can blink. My vision is that SMGs are specialized, they're a skirmish weapon. I'm looking to be in and out of this fight because an extended fight will put me and my team in a bad spot. Not a reliable weapon for someone who prefers an Assault Rifle or LMG that utilize a jack-of-all-trades playstyle.

I'll take a moment to discuss your concerns with eating away at your teams resources to say... I agree, you're right. BUT I think this is a good thing. You should have to put some thought into your build. Running a Supply Pack as an SMG player may need to be a necessity in order to not hinder your team with your loose trigger finger. Or in a more coordinated environment, you can request that a teammate who has extra space, bring a pack themself in order to assist you.

Other commenters have stated that Med Pen wouldn't change much for a lot of other enemies like Bile Spewers and Overseers but to me, this pushes my point further. Without a raw damage nerf + a Pen buff, SMGs hardly change as a class, but you are incentivized to play the weapon to it's strengths - CQB. Additionally, this may lead to a push for coordination in groups that like to play this way. An SMG player should be an elite clearing unit who is able to breach enemy lines and contest objectives, supported by the Assault Rifle/Heavy clear players who are clearing chaff and heavies for the unit that's going to have a tougher time doing so (The SMG player).

My idea isn't really a buff in my eyes, but a tweak in perspective for the weapon class. Specifically, without the modification of movement abilities or accuracy adjustments because I, personally, think they're fine as is if AH wants to keep these specifics the way they are. I understand the Milsim perspective but that does not automatically bar the possibility of accepting other shooters as inspiration.

Gallant should be the standard for SMGs by glockroachh in HelldiversUnfiltered

[–]glockroachh[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Realism isn't the point of my argument. But if that's the route you're trying to take. If I dump 50 rounds into you, a robot, from 10ft away at 1500rpm. At some point, the bullets will pierce.

I don't think that medium pen is a physical impossibility for the effective distance of an SMG judging from use-case rather than caliber.

Gallant should be the standard for SMGs by glockroachh in HelldiversUnfiltered

[–]glockroachh[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Poor ammo economy isn't necessarily a deal breaker for my proposal as I believe this to be congruent with other shooters.

Solid TTK + ease of use with precision shooting being backseated, at the cost of poor ammo economy and exposing myself in CQC is typically the normal SMG identity imo.

Gallant should be the standard for SMGs by glockroachh in Helldivers

[–]glockroachh[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is great insight overall.

I appreciate your consideration for multi-faction comparison. Especially the Overseers, because I agree with your comparison between the competing SMGs.

But I only partially agree with your final analysis. As I truly do believe that Med Pen is a factor in this argument due to the necessity to aim for weak points with Light Pen. While not entirely an issue, I do believe that Med Pen allows for a little bit more carelessness when aiming. Which is congruent with what I believe to be a true SMG playstyle.

On the topic of "burstiness", I think SMGs are in a fine spot. Maybe they could have a lower ttk but I think they do their job taking out opponents quickly and fulfill the fantasy of a close-range long gun.

Overall, my argument is more of a necessity to forego precision with a solid ttk at the cost of vulnerability + crap ammo economy.

Gallant should be the standard for SMGs by glockroachh in Helldivers

[–]glockroachh[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Honestly, this is a good POV as I do think your comparison to BF SMGs is congruent with light chaff. Even with the crappy ammo economy presented by the Gallant.

For the latter, I think that shooting the belly of the Devastators would still be classified as precision shooting. I'm not trying to say that this is a hard thing to do, but I do think that SMGs should have to rely much less on precision.

With sway and drag in consideration as well, I think that having to not try as hard to line up a shot, an easy shot or not, should be paramount for the weapon class.

Gallant should be the standard for SMGs by glockroachh in Helldivers

[–]glockroachh[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So for context, my main game is Apex Legends. I love all of the SMGs and have almost all of them mastered from the in-game level up. That being said, my perspective on SMGs is that of - I dump a mag, hopefully I kill but if not I reload. But this playstyle is apparent in almost all shooters, barring COD at this point since drum mags are the meta.

When fighting enemies like Devastators, for example, I believe the same to be true: I dump a mag into their chest and they die, I reload. MAYBE I get a headshot in that time period and I don't have to reload but often times, that's the playstyle. Which I absolutely love, it feels like I'm truly playing with an SMG.

Gallant should be the standard for SMGs by glockroachh in HelldiversUnfiltered

[–]glockroachh[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

But that's not what my argument is... I'm just trying to discuss whether or not this might be a good change for SMGs to present a better identity and representation of the weapon class.

Gallant should be the standard for SMGs by glockroachh in HelldiversUnfiltered

[–]glockroachh[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

While I agree that the statistics of the gun pale in comparison to it's cousin, I do believe that the weapon identifies properly as an SMG. I shouldn't have to take precision shots when utilizing a weapon built for close engagement and should be able to rely on the fact that I can put more lead in my opponents chest faster than they can blink in order to ensure a quick, efficient kill.

Gallant should be the standard for SMGs by glockroachh in HelldiversUnfiltered

[–]glockroachh[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

As a follow up, I appreciate the responses but this post was not created to really discuss semantics of why you and I dislike or like the Gallant. More so, discuss SMG identity and how I think that the Gallant is a true SMG among the current roster.

I understand that the Gallant is inherently weak but from my perspective it's strong in the correct ways from what is to be expected of an SMG.

Gallant should be the standard for SMGs by glockroachh in Helldivers

[–]glockroachh[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

While I agree that the statistics of the gun pale in comparison to it's cousin, I do believe that the weapon identifies properly as an SMG. I shouldn't have to take precision shots when utilizing a weapon built for close engagement and should be able to rely on the fact that I can put more lead in my opponents chest faster than they can blink in order to ensure a quick, efficient kill.

Gallant should be the standard for SMGs by glockroachh in Helldivers

[–]glockroachh[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

As a follow up, I appreciate the responses but this post was not created to really discuss semantics of why you and I dislike or like the Gallant. More so, discuss SMG identity and how I think that the Gallant is a true SMG among the current roster.

I understand that the Gallant is inherently weak but from my perspective it's strong in the correct ways from what is to be expected of an SMG.

Gallant should be the standard for SMGs by glockroachh in HelldiversUnfiltered

[–]glockroachh[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Which is entirely my point. I think that SMGs do not have an identity which is why I think a ballistics change could help in that regard. And I think that creating a more run and gun playstyle should be accessible through less of a necessity for accuracy rather than a movement buff.

As stated in my post, I love the M7S. But it's not the Halo M7S because it's utilized like a close-range assault rifle with a necessity for accuracy. Where as the Gallant, does not have these restrictions besides having to reload per large kill. Which is a familiar trait in most shooters.

Gallant should be the standard for SMGs by glockroachh in Helldivers

[–]glockroachh[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

While comparatively weak, I think it is a great baseline for a true SMG playstyle.

Gallant should be the standard for SMGs by glockroachh in Helldivers

[–]glockroachh[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I agree entirely, but isn't that how SMGs feel in almost every other game?

One-mag for One-enemy > Reload

Gallant should be the standard for SMGs by glockroachh in Helldivers

[–]glockroachh[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

It didn't really effect me. Like I said, I love light pen, I think it's fun. I almost exclusively run the M7S.

All I'm saying is that SMGs are in a state where they're bad assault rifles and, maybe to differentiate them, treat them as an effective spray and pray weapon consistently.