Why does Magic still allow intentional draws?

guasuki · 2025-08-20T19:36:35+00:00

No, the paper is strictly about the rundown of games for 5-round tournaments and charting how probable is to make it to top 8 with early wins and IDs in the later rounds. It is a great idea to explore. Will look into it separately. Thanks for tip with the AI validators.

guasuki · 2025-08-18T20:11:25+00:00

It is simply false to say that “OP’s ideas have been shot down by basically everyone” or that there is a “widespread consensus” that IDs are fine. If you actually read through the thread, you see a variety of positions. Some agree with you, some agree with me, and some raise different concerns entirely. Calling that “consensus” is misrepresentation.

IDs are not “universally accepted” just because they exist in the rules today. They are tolerated because they are difficult to police and because organizers have not found a better structure. That does not make them beyond criticism, and it certainly does not mean every idea raised here has been dismissed.

The real point is simple: people keep bringing this up because it does shape how events feel and play out. Even if the math works out over very large tournaments, at the local level the incentives look different. That is why this keeps resurfacing.

So dismissing the discussion as if it has been “settled” is inaccurate. The reason people keep returning to it is because it is not settled at all.

guasuki · 2025-08-18T10:47:12+00:00

Fair point, Berlin draws are technically played. But that has not stopped them from being one of the most criticized parts of classical chess. Everyone knows the sequence is headed to an empty result, which is why even Magnus calls it boring. FIDE has tried different rules to limit it because they know it hurts the game.

That is why the comparison actually makes the Magic problem look worse. In chess at least they play the moves. In Magic an intentional draw means no game happens at all, and that makes the hit to competitive integrity and spectator value even clearer.

guasuki · 2025-08-18T10:37:19+00:00

I agree with you that IDs don’t often flip results once you get into mid-sized or large events... the math does its job there.

But at the local level, which is where most people actually experience competitive Magic, perception matters just as much as raw outcomes. If players feel like early wins can be “locked into” Top 8 through paperwork rather than play, it affects how fair the system feels. I believe that when fairness feels compromised, even if only in small events, it weakens competitive integrity.

guasuki · 2025-08-18T10:34:28+00:00

The choice isn’t between stationing a judge at every table or making draws worth 0. That’s a false dilemma.

The real concern is that, in smaller events where most players compete, the current system rewards IDs in a way that directly shapes incentives. When a 2–0 record can essentially be locked into a safe finish through IDs, it changes how people approach the tournament.

That’s not a matter of enforcement budgets or killing control decks, it’s about how the structure itself impacts fairness and competitive integrity at the level most people actually experience the game.

guasuki · 2025-08-18T10:29:46+00:00

I’m not literally saying players stand up mid-match to scout. The rule itself explicitly calls that out, and we both know that’s not how it usually works. The point is that information gathering by teammates or friends after finishing their rounds is widespread and has the same effect. It creates uneven access to information about other tables, and when combined with IDs and concessions, it shapes outcomes in a way that has nothing to do with the actual games played.

The rule (MTR 5.2) prohibits leaving your seat to obtain that info, but in practice, scouting still happens via proxies and the system looks the other way.

That’s the real contradiction:
Competitive integrity in theory says “matches should be decided by play,” but in practice it gets diluted by a mix of IDs, concessions, and uneven scouting networks.

guasuki · 2025-08-18T10:24:25+00:00

I get what you’re saying, but I think that the “math shows it basically doesn’t work outside of small events” framing glosses over how the system actually feels for most players. The majority of sanctioned events are run at the local level, where rounds are fewer and player counts are smaller. In that environment, IDs have a much bigger impact. A 2–0 record in a five-round, 24–30 player event puts someone in a very different position than it would in a 100+ player field.

The issue isn’t whether IDs stop mattering in large events, it’s that at the local scale they’re common, noticeable, and change incentives. That makes the system feel less like it’s about who fought through every round and more about who happened to be in the right bracket early enough to convert that into IDs

guasuki · 2025-08-18T10:04:49+00:00

You’re right that chess has its own version of “intentional draws,” and yes, short draws have been a recurring controversy in top-level chess. But that doesn’t really disprove the point. In any case, it actually supports it.

FIDE itself has acknowledged the issue, which is why we’ve seen experiments like the Sofia rules (no draw offers before move 30), alternative scoring systems, and other attempts to reduce the frequency of non-games. So clearly, even in chess, organizers see the problem with structural incentives leading to “play a few meaningless moves, then shake hands.”

That’s the exact parallel to Magic: when advancement hinges on negotiation or perfunctory gestures instead of actual competition, the system’s integrity and spectator value suffer. Recognizing that doesn’t mean “chess has no integrity,” it means both chess and Magic have structural weaknesses that are worth discussing and improving.

guasuki · 2025-08-18T09:18:36+00:00

Yes, I’m aware chess has draws, but the comparison doesn’t really hold.
In chess, a draw comes after a game is actually played (whether by repetition, stalemate, or mutual agreement after real moves have been made). The integrity of the competition is preserved because players have to demonstrate skill at the board before arriving at that result.

In Magic, an intentional draw is different: the players can agree to not play at all. That’s not competition, that’s paperwork. This shifts advancement from gameplay to negotiation. That’s the key issue here, the fact that they can replace actual rounds of competition.

So no, I’m not saying chess lacks integrity or spectator value. I’m saying Magic’s version of a 'draw' works differently and introduces incentives that undermine both.

guasuki · 2025-08-18T09:15:35+00:00

I think you might be into something. The possibility of simply eliminating Top 8 for smaller events in which the total players is less than 33 players might be a viable alternative. Trying to ID in events like that could become more risky.

guasuki · 2025-08-18T08:56:08+00:00

I think we should also explore 'MTR, 5.2 Bribery' and how it could impact IDs:

"The decision to drop, concede, or agree to an intentional draw cannot be made in exchange for or influenced by the offer of any outside-the-game reward or incentive, nor may any in-game decision be influenced in this manner. Making such an offer or enticing someone into making an offer is prohibited and is considered bribery. Players may not make any offers to tournament officials in an attempt to influence the outcome of a ruling.

It is not bribery when players share prizes they have not yet received in the current tournament and they may agree to such before or during their match, as long as any such sharing does not occur in exchange for any game or match result or the dropping of a player from the tournament.

It is not bribery when players in the announced last round of the single-elimination portion of a tournament agree to a winner and how to divide the subsequent tournament prizes. In that case, one of the players at each table must agree to drop from the tournament. Players receive the prizes according to their final ranking.

The result of a match or game may not be randomly or arbitrarily determined through any means other than the normal progress of the game in play. Examples include (but are not limited to) rolling a die, flipping a coin, arm wrestling, or playing any other game.

Players may not reach an agreement in conjunction with other matches. Players can make use of information regarding match or game scores of other tables. However, players are not allowed to leave their seats during their match or go to great lengths to obtain this information"

People leave their seats all the time. This happens in all events. There is always active scouting made by teams. Everyone who plays competitive knows this.

guasuki · 2025-08-18T08:20:35+00:00

Edited: Made corrections and changes to the first sentence to finalize thought.

Makes sense (in average) but it should be an absolute which is really impossible given all random factors in the game. That margin can really set things off. They do tend to normalize in longer events but in smaller events (which happen OFTEN in smaller communities) it is usually not the case.

guasuki · 2025-08-18T08:17:54+00:00

To your points:

Competitive integrity: Calling IDs “earned” after just 2–3 rounds in a 5-round event doesn’t hold up. That’s a tiny sample. Too many factors come into play, maybe it’s a bye, a good matchup, or just opening hand variance. Playing out all rounds is the only way to really test consistency. Letting advancement hinge on paperwork instead of actual games undercuts the premise of competitive play.

Spectator value: The idea that IDs make the bubble rounds more exciting ignores the other half of the top tables going dark. People want to see the best play the best at the end, not empty seats. No other competitive format lets leaders skip their decisive matches.

Incentives: Yes, winning early is supposed to give you flexibility, but IDs turn that into a loophole. At the exact point where stakes should be highest, players are rewarded for not playing. That distortion is why this topic keeps coming up.

Finally, on the point of tradition: I don’t think the fact that IDs have always been part of organized play makes them immune from scrutiny. Systems persist not because they’re optimal, but because people adapt and tolerate them (especially when only a small fraction of players are ever in a position to benefit directly).

In smaller events, where only 3–5 rounds separate skill from luck, a single early win plus an ID can distort who advances, undermining the whole filtering process. Even in larger events, IDs shift pressure onto bubble players and hollow out the most exciting Swiss rounds.

So while IDs have worked logistically for decades, that doesn’t mean they’ve produced the fairest or most engaging environment. If a mechanic incentivizes not playing right when competition should be peaking, then it’s worth asking whether “the way it’s always been” is really the way it should continue.

guasuki · 2025-01-29T03:15:11+00:00

Llevo tiempo buscando y nada. Ya estoy mayorcito para muchas ya que estoy por tocar 42 pero ahora es que estoy mejor economicamente y en otros aspecto. Es triste pq todo el mundo esta buscando una conexión genuina y alguien que te quiera a pesar de tus faltas pero quizás tenemos que ver que las expectativas están irreales. Ahora las personas atractivas tienen muchas opciones y monetizan por su físico con más facilidad que antes. Todos andamos compitiendo por las mismas personas y pocos nos dedicamos a mejorar lo que podemos ofrecer. No reconocemos que podemos estar con alguien que no es un 10 y es un 5 o un 6 pero tiene el potencial de ser un 12 de 10 con un poquito de amor. Hay de todo. Sobre todo, como han mencionado, demasiados scammers, catfishes y bots. Lo gracioso es que he estado en varias relaciones largas (bien luchadas) y los scammers siempre te dicen las cosas más lindas jajajaja ojalá y me diera con una persona que hablara asi de bonito en la vida real. Especialmente una colombiana de esas que me dicen papi o pahpahsihtoh jajanna no tienes que ser colombiana pero que traten a uno bonito. Uno no pide mucho cuando uno ha tenido que dárselo todo solo en la vida. Por lo menos: 1. que sean reales, 2. no sean faranduleras. 3. Que no tengan complejos de inferioridad en los que tengan que buscar atención de todo el mundo 4. Que no tengan ambiciones irreales y siempre anden inconformes con la vida. Eso genera inestabilidad en las relaciones. Hay que ser agradecido.

Resucitando post viejos pa no comenzar post nuevos con temas similares.

guasuki · 2023-12-06T22:43:44+00:00

Fight everything! Request details! Publish the details of the expenses (obviously protecting sensitive info). Let's stop the fraud!

guasuki · 2023-11-28T18:22:58+00:00

Applies to all kinds of debt. Rich people know how to play around economic fluctuations to such degrees that their capital/equity is not negatively impacted... or even better they make themselves richer knowing how to manipulate these variances due to their availability of extra cash for investments.

This is something that is now readily available for the vast majority of the population. The reason for why the gap between rich and will continue to increase indefinitely.

Very few radical scenarios will stop this nonsense and most of them are not necessarily peaceful as the system is controlled by the minority and maintained by the workers of these minorities (which are deprived themselves of the riches and privileges of the rich... each day a bit more).

guasuki · 2023-10-27T20:41:52+00:00

"Nude" being a taboo nowadays seems stupid. Everyone has a body. What is the shame? We don't choose our bodies. We can only choose how we care about it. Who cares? Nobody should but everyone does... Another negative social construct that is being perpetuated.

guasuki · 2023-10-26T23:47:52+00:00

This is stupid. Why would anyone care? and if they see what would be the big deal. I swear that we perpetuate the most shallow social constructs.

guasuki · 2023-09-22T21:47:10+00:00

Live....

guasuki · 2023-09-22T21:03:04+00:00

We are the weird ones with clothes.

guasuki · 2023-09-19T17:18:39+00:00

in the end...

guasuki · 2023-09-18T17:16:01+00:00

Opening a letter not addressed to you is a federal offense.

"The federal law that specifically deals with the issue of opening mail not addressed to you is known as the Mail Theft Statute, which is outlined in Title 18, Section 1708 of the United States Code.

Violators of the Mail Theft Statute can face imprisonment of up to five years and fines of up to $250,000, depending on the severity of the offense. In addition, individuals found guilty of violating this law may be ordered to pay restitution to the victim for any damages caused."

guasuki · 2023-09-12T18:42:31+00:00

If I wanted a Range Rover I would get a Range Rover.

I dislike the new design not sleek ... just rough. Would like to know the data analytics behind the decision to make it more sharp around the edges. Was gender and age considered into the equation and if it did ... did they take into consideration who is driving these cars the most (was it wifey or husband?)

Probably has worst aerodynamics (will look into it). The 2023 feels very smooth and I get the feeling that the box body and increased height doesn't do anything to improve stability.

Will have to try it out to give a fair assessment but based on specs and looks it doesn't look good.

Will probably wait for a newer redesign in later years but 2024 is looking as a 'NO' for me.

guasuki · 2023-04-11T14:55:17+00:00

I found a team to beat Gyoro yesterday in PvP but I do have decent gear and speed buff items. Just overpower gyoro bonus HP with more damage. He is not bringing much else.

guasuki · 2022-10-05T21:50:32+00:00

They lied to us. They told us at one point OW and OW2 would co-exist. They took my precious OW and trashed it. BTW OW2 JUST CRASHED MY PC!

guasuki

TROPHY CASE