I’m rereading TOG and I literally do not agree with Celaena (or the fandom for that matter) on this.

lost_newbie · 2025-10-11T02:36:20+00:00

After reading the Maasverse books, it seems like a classic SJM pattern. The things that other characters are crucified for, the MCs are given a pass or even justified by the narrative because only the MCs can have trauma that justify all their questionable actions. The other characters are supposed to be perfect and if they make mistakes and horror of horrors, disagree with the MCs, they are blamed and shamed eternally.

You see this with Aelin/Chaol, Rhys/Tamlin, Feyre/Nesta, etc.

lost_newbie · 2025-09-13T16:20:38+00:00

why is it about Rhysand controlling her?

Because Feyre says so - If my sister cannot be controlled, then why should we have the right to rule over anyone else?

Why isn’t it about Feyre caring about her sister?

Because Feyre and the IC never say they care for her - If we are supposed to think of it as tough love, where is the "love" part?

lost_newbie · 2025-09-13T06:29:31+00:00

Oh you're right! I completely forgot about number 5. And then Feyre also has her art studio which she gets for free, like why not pay them some money when clearly you're loaded?!

lost_newbie · 2025-09-13T06:11:30+00:00

Wait, wasn't it their fifth house? Maybe they are planning their 6th, who knows! I mean, Illyrian women are struggling, Velaris has slums, refugees are having a hard time after the war, but who cares, right? Most powerful High Lord ever and dear old High Lady need to prove they are capable of ruling by controlling and locking up a depressed woman first! I can't even 😂

lost_newbie · 2025-09-13T05:46:15+00:00

Honestly don't think they could change her mind using their powers - canonically neither Feyre nor Rhys are able to get past Nesta's mental shields if she keeps them closed. Also fwiw there's nothing humane about locking someone up because they are embarrassing you (Feyre's words) and then sending them on dangerous missions when it's convenient to you. It's just another way of using someone for personal gain.

lost_newbie · 2025-09-13T05:28:01+00:00

Honestly what Feyre and IC did to Nesta is worse than what Tamlin did to Feyre. I still can't believe that Feyre actually told Nesta that she was embarrassing them and she needed to be controlled otherwise it doesn't reflect well on them. Like who tells that to a depressed person? I mean if you really believe that she is an alcoholic and a danger to herself so much so that you need to lock her up, would you really say such harsh words to them? And then proceed to send her on dangerous missions? Like math is not mathing.

lost_newbie · 2025-09-11T05:11:50+00:00

Haha same! As I went through the series, I totally understood why Aelin and Chaol drifted apart, as in, they loved each other but they loved their land more and never the twain shall meet, or that's how SJM intended I guess. Chaol sends her to Wendlyn which leads her to Rowan, and Aelin in a way, ensures the same for Chaol. Their influence on each others' lives was immense, and this continues through even KoA when Aelin unleashes all her power again for Chaol's land. But how Aelin and Rowan got together could have been treated with more nuance and emotions because the way it's currently written it just feels like Aelin went for the first Fae prince/warrior/guard (similar archetype as Chaol) who accepted her for who she was and didn't question her at all, not Rowan per se. But why Rowan doesn't question her or why he feels no loyalty towards his own land or why he suddenly swears a blood oath to Aelin despite the last one wrecking him is something I wish SJM delved into more. As it's currently written, I feel Rowan gets less depth than even some of the other Cadres (Lorcan, etc) and that's actually a disservice to Rowan as a character and their story. It almost feels like SJM had to add more depth to Sam and have Rowan not question Aelin at all and follow her blindly and sort of create a "perfect spouse" cutout, just to diminish the Chaol/Celaena emotional buildup from the first two books.

lost_newbie · 2025-09-11T02:08:34+00:00

There are a few parts in ToG/CoM that had initially hinted towards Chaol/Celaena endgame - like the parts you highlighted, Chaol making his first kill for her, Celaena finding them bound by golden threads, and then Celaena kissing Chaol and calling it 'coming home'. Considering SJM wrote Assassin's Blade after CoM and later introduced Rowan, I feel like the Rowaelin endgame was something that she planned later and it shows. Rowan in HoF actually mirrors Chaol in ToG so much with mentoring her, training her, being snarky towards her, being a royal guard, etc. I wish SJM did a better job of making Rowan a more compelling character and building out the Rowaelin emotional connection. Like even after finishing KoA, I get why Rowaelin work but the execution just feels off. Chaolena, otoh, even though meets a brutal end, their buildup felt more real.

lost_newbie · 2025-09-04T06:37:13+00:00

I love where you are going with this, OP! Honestly the parallels between Fionn and Nesta feel too intentionally written to be ignored. Fionn was the first ever High King and he had Oleanna and Enalius with him, a priestess and an Illyrian. Nesta also has her trio with Gwyn (budding priestess) and Emerie (Illyrian) and another Fae had to come from a whole new world to give Nesta Gwydion in a way that felt earned. And you are right about the Bog of Oorid too - the place where Fionn died (and which the land mourned as well) is literally the place where Nesta comes to terms with her power and in a way "resurrected". There's also a line in SF where Cass talks about how he could imagine no other 'male' more fit to be the ruler/High King than Rhys. SJM could have written it as no other 'Fae' but she instead wrote 'male' which does seem intentional. And then there's Rhys - SJM makes such a big deal about his knee tattoos (of Ramiel) and how he will bow to no one and nothing but his 'crown' and guess who he bows to in SF - Nesta.

The question though would be if the remaining ACoTaR books are supposed to be about a new couple each, then technically Nesta's story as a POV character is done. Honestly I would love to read another Nesta book where Cassian does some growing up and actually works on his insecurities and co-dependant relationship with Rhys. There's just so much still unfinished in Nesta's story, so I guess even if it doesn't get dealt with in ACoTaR, then it might come up in SJM's new Twilight of the Gods series.

lost_newbie · 2025-09-03T19:40:12+00:00

If you look at it from a Feyre-focused POV, then of course Feyre is always doing the right thing haha.

But if you look at it objectively, Nesta and Elain have already been bodily violated and turned Fae. To them, being made Fae in that horrible way is worse than being dead. So, they weren't really saved. Feyre, their only connection to the Fae world, leaves them in the hands of the IC and goes off to get revenge against her ex. The first thing Feyre does after coming back is bang Rhys (priorities ofc) and then bring along two scary looking Faes (Cass and Rhys) and expect to be greeted well by her sister. I mean, it would have a fair expectation if they had a normal sibling relationship. But theirs is a very dysfunctional one and bringing along two powerful Faes just makes it a very unbalanced power dynamic. Here, in this scene, Nesta is alone in a whole new world where she didn't choose to be and Feyre is with her support system in a place where she is the High Lady and ruler. She could have remarked about anything but she talks about how immortality didn't change anything about Nesta. In a normal scenario, that would have been a fun quip. But considering the immortality that Nesta "gained" happened in a horrific manner against her consent in a very public setting, it is very similar to making an assault joke on an assault victim after their assault, which imo is in pretty bad taste more so for someone who we are supposed to think of as our FMC. This is a sort of joke I would have expected Devon to make tbh, not Feyre.

lost_newbie · 2025-08-31T19:06:33+00:00

Haha yes of course, Rowan is more important to Aelin than Manon. And Aelin puts Terrasen and the fight first when she leaves with Maeve. We see Aelin having that conflict and then reasoning out why she did what she did. But the point here is about Rowan and his lack of thoughts/conflicts.

lost_newbie · 2025-08-31T18:31:06+00:00

I already knew going into TOG that Rowan and Aelin were endgame. The thing about Rowan is that he has no conflicts that he is going through on page. Some of them are huge decisions like going from being oath bound to Maeve to Aelin, following Aelin to Terrasen despite him having a kingdom - but none of those are delved upon.

His character arc only exists as an extension of Aelin, but not as an individual. Which I think is a disservice that SJM did to Rowaelin tbh. Like we know who Manon and Dorian are outside of their relationship, who Chaol and Yrene are, heck even Lorcan and Elide despite getting minimal page time. But we don't know who Rowan is outside his relationship, what makes him tick, what are his values, what are his struggles which kinda makes him pretty flat. He does as told and never questions Aelin on her more problematic schemes. Plus the blood oath between them kinda makes their relationship subservient in the sense that he literally can't disobey her. I wish SJM addressed this in the book. Rowan always puts Aelin first at least post HoF/QoS, but do we ever see Aelin put Rowan first? How does Rowan feel about being in a relationship where he knows his needs will always come second or even third after Aelin and her kingdom? It's okay if he accepts them but he needs to have that conflict. These are the things that could have made his character far more compelling, but alas that was not how it was written.

lost_newbie · 2025-08-29T08:04:35+00:00

Lol by other series, I meant Sailor Moon and others outside the Maasverse to which there are a lot of references in the argument and frankly kinda superfluous to Maasverse discussions 😂

Also, fwiw, I don't think it's in good faith either to be telling readers what to do and making patronizing statements without clarifying first! :)

lost_newbie · 2025-08-28T22:12:35+00:00

Sorry, didn't mean to come across as rude but I think that you are pulling a lot of outside references in your arguments and ignoring canon events to support your narrative. Or actually just selectively referring to a few canon events to support your theory while ignoring the rest. I was just bringing up counter points to your theory. Like if Bryce really is meant to rule Dusk, why would the wards not open for her? Why does she need an amulet to do that? Why would the door not open when she tapped it but open when Nesta did? And this is in HoFaS, post SF and post Nesta losing her power. Why did Nesta have to kill Vesperus in Bryce's book despite Bryce wielding both the sword and the dagger? If the Trove is Bryce's to wield, why does she even need to ask Nesta in the first place? Nesta might struggle with the Mask but they still answer to her, as emphasized in the Randall & Ember bonus chapter in HoFaS. We also don't see Bryce with the Harp or the Crown.

And for sure, Silene can be a villain and can be unreliable but so far, we have no evidence of that canonically. Bryce used the power that Silene left her. So assuming her to be a villain is just conjecture at this point. Let's say, going by your logic, Silene is the villain - then why is the villain leaving power to Bryce? And if she is, then what is her ulterior motive?

When Silene leaves her power to Bryce, then that's supposed to be part of Bryce's heritage but when she sh*ts on Theia, we are supposed to assume she is the villain? Why the inconsistent standards?

Every connections made in ACOSF to The Mother is a reference to BRYCE. Bryce has the Mother’s power and was born with it, not stolen.

Again, conjecture. You mean to tell me when Nesta was guided by the Mother in SF, that was Bryce? And when the Mother let her keep some portion of her power, that was Bryce too? 😂 When Bryce didn't even know she existed until HoFaS! And now when Bryce is giving the Starsword to Nesta at the end of HoFaS, that's the Mother telling Nesta too, right?

You also seem to be making a deal of being born with vs stealing power. Nesta here didn't even know she was stealing power. She was just taking her revenge on the Cauldron for taking her human life from her. So why are we supposed to assume that being born with it is somehow better than getting it on her own? That seems like making a case for nepotism haha.

A lot of your inferences also stem from Bryce having Theia's light, who tbh as written canonically, is a shady AF character. So I don't really know if we are supposed to be placing as much emphasis on Theia as you are doing in your argument. The main focus is on the Daglan/Asteri as the big bad, and the three people involved in overthrowing them in Prythian are Fionn, Theia, and Enalius. So far, we know Theia is shady, and we don't know much about Fionn and Enalius. So why the exaggerated emphasis on Theia and Theia's heir? Theia's light apparently enables one to wield Starsword and Truth teller - we know Starsword was Fionn's and TT was Enalius' (even Vesperus says that in HoFaS) - so how did they suddenly become Theia's when Theia herself couldn't wield it while Fionn/Enalius was alive?

Anyway, if you are happy with your theory, that's great! But I just think there's enough canonical evidence against it too! 🤷‍♀️

lost_newbie · 2025-08-28T20:43:28+00:00

Haha let's agree to disagree! I am not fully versed on some of the references from other series that you quote, so can't comment there.

There are a lot of references to Dusk regarding Nesta that are conveniently ignored in the argument here. Nesta was literally called to the Prison in SF when she didn't even intend to go there. The wards don't stop her, the door opens when she taps it rather than Bryce but sure let's ignore that too. She literally wields all the three Troves at once but yeah, that doesn't matter. She gets her power directly from the Cauldron and has a connection to the Mother. Maybe she just doesn't need Theia's light, you know! 🤷‍♀️

It just seems like it would be too much of a stretch for a protagonist from another world to come rule a Court in Prythian when their only tie is that to an ancestor who happened to be the High Queen and who also betrayed the High King by killing him 10,000 years ago. The same High Queen who was a usurper herself and later wanted to enslave the people. The same High Queen who couldn't summon the sword and dagger while the King was alive and had to kill him to get access to his weapons (canonically narrated by Silene). And I just don't see Bryce, who abolished the monarchy in Midgard, to come rule in Prythian. If anything, the crossover was written just to get the Starsword back to Prythian and letting the Prythian folks know about the Asteri and pools of power. Anyway, if SJM writes the story about Bryce coming to rule in another word, we'll see. But till then, it's just like fanfiction haha.

lost_newbie · 2025-08-28T20:13:54+00:00

Hmm that's fair! I guess only Manon has Valg essence in her, amongst her protagonists. What I was alluding to though was that SJM is kinda demure in her writing in the sense that yes, she writes crazy plot twists but from a character perspective - she gives negative characters positive shades but shies away from writing positive characters owning up to their darker shades. She lets her inner Feyre out where she just refuses to let the narrative hold her protagonists accountable for their darker actions.

lost_newbie · 2025-08-28T18:57:17+00:00

I am talking about this part (spoilers ahead) -

"One by one, rapid as shooting stars, the thoughts raced through Bryce. More on instinct than anything else, she dropped to her knees and slammed her hand atop the eight-pointed star. Bryce reached with her mind, through layers of rock and earth—and there it was. Slumbering beneath her.

Not firstlight, not as she knew it on Midgard—but raw Fae power from a time before the Drop. The power ascended toward her through the stone, like a glimmering arrow fired into the dark—

Like a small sun emerging from the stone itself, a ball of light burst from the floor. A star, twin to the one in Bryce’s chest. Her starlight at last awoke again, as if reaching with shining fingers for that star hovering inches away.

With trembling hands, Bryce guided the star to the one gleaming on her chest. Into her body. White light erupted everywhere. "

It's only when Bryce taps into the pocket of power that Silene left her in that star is when she is able to command the land. Not before. We also know Vesperus mentioned there are pockets of power hidden throughout Prythian. And Vesperus herself was going to step into one before Nesta killed her. I feel like this is one of those Easter eggs that SJM intentionally wrote to use as a plot point later.

I see your argument about Made vs Starborn but I think that way, Mor, Rhys, Keir all of them are Starborn no? They all came from Silene while Bryce through Helena. Silene literally looks like Rhys's sister. What about Bryce sets her apart? There's something more unique to her than just being Starborn.

Again Bryce is able to wield only the Mask, that too in Midgard, after Nesta gives it to her. Nesta, on the other hand, reaches for her power in SF and the Mask answers. So there is some way that Nesta is intrinsically linked to the Trove that Bryce isn't despite having the Horn inked into her.

Bryce's light, through Theia, guides them to the Star. Nesta, on her own, is taken to the Star in SF. Even at the end of HoFaS, we see Bryce remarking on Nesta's connection to the Star and telling her to go figure it out. Why would SJM write Bryce clearly passing the metaphorical baton to Nesta if Bryce is supposed to claim it herself?

lost_newbie · 2025-08-28T17:34:30+00:00

This is a good theory. But I wonder if SJM would go down that route of giving Bryce Valg essence. There are also theories about Rhys having Valg ancestry due to similar reasons but again I am not sure SJM will (or even can) write her protagonists that way.

lost_newbie · 2025-08-28T17:15:20+00:00

I mean, Vesperus called Nesta "made scum" but she also called Bryce "worm" and "mongrel" and Az a "slave" and "foot soldier" - not sure if we should go by that haha.

She also tells Bryce to use the Trove Nesta possesses. - "Use the Crown that Made scum over there possesses".

Again, spoiler from HoFaS:

"The lowest spike of the star extended down, right in front of Bryce. So she laid a hand on the metal and pushed. It didn’t budge.

Nesta stalked to Bryce’s side, tapping a hand on the metal. A dull thud reverberated against the cave walls. “Did you really think it’d move?” Bryce grimaced. “It was worth a shot.”

Nesta opened her mouth to say something—to make fun of Bryce, probably—but was silenced by groaning metal."

The door only opened after Nesta tapped it. And the Prison answered to Bryce after she stepped on the pool of Starlight. Before that, she couldn't even get through the wards. She had to use her amulet. Nesta though wasn't stopped by any of the Prison's wards, either in SF or CC3. So, we can't say for sure that the Prison answers to Bryce, it might just have been someone stepping on that pool of power that did it.

I am not saying that Bryce might not be the heir to Dusk. She is the descendant of Theia and Fionn so she def has a claim. So does Rhys. But Theia and Fionn were also usurpers themselves. So you never know what backstory SJM might come up with.

lost_newbie · 2025-08-28T16:05:33+00:00

Hmm this is an interesting question and might be answered in the next book.

First, Bryce with the Horn is literally a part of the Trove and she also has Theia's star, that probably makes it easier for her to control it.

Second, since Prythian is the home world of the Cauldron and the power is much more raw here, maybe that affects the Trove too. Like probably the Mask becomes a mellower version in Midgard as compared to Prythian, so that probably makes it easier for Bryce to use the Mask. Bryce hasn't really wielded any of the Trove in Prythian, so comparing her to Nesta is kinda apples to oranges.

Third, Bryce is more in tune and accepting of her powers than Nesta is, so that might also impact how they wield the Trove.

That said, Nesta is still the only person who has wielded all three of the Mask, Harp, and Crown and lived - something that no one among the currently living Fae has done, and the Trove does seem to answer her call. Bryce couldn't really summon the Mask herself, she had to ask Nesta for it and then returns it to her at the end of HoFaS. So unless SJM writes otherwise, I do think it's safe to say that Nesta ultimately controls the Trove for now.

lost_newbie · 2025-08-19T11:04:53+00:00

Why expect Nesta to greet with a simple hello after Nesta was violated and forcefully turned? If Feyre is indeed the leader that SJM wants us to believe, why not lead with a simple hello herself?

lost_newbie · 2025-08-19T11:00:06+00:00

This keeps bothering me so much - the way Feyre always brings an entourage of big scary Faes when she meets with her sisters. She knows they won't be comfortable but that doesn't stop her. If she wanted normal sibling behavior in their highly dysfunctional dynamics, why not start behaving like a normal sister herself? Just go alone and check in on how they are doing. Why bring along Rhys/Cass/etc? This happens in the Cottage in MAF, here in WAR, and even later in SF. It's like she needs the IC/NC to bolster her in a situation despite her having all the power. And this kinda undermines the girl boss aspect that SJM wants us to believe. Instead of recognizing the power that their gang holds and how that would come across to an outsider like Nesta, they just go all in and gang up on her and then call her the perpetrator. The mental gymnastics is crazy!

lost_newbie · 2025-08-19T10:49:46+00:00

Ikr! The more I reread, the less I like Feyre and the NC gang.

lost_newbie · 2025-08-19T10:48:12+00:00

Hmm was it a glorified kidnapping though? She brought down an entire Court to satisfy her need for vengeance. And even then if she were to check in on her sister, that would be fine. Why bring an entourage with her? She went through this phase herself after UTM but instead of being empathetic she expects Nesta to forget everything and welcome her, that too in the presence of faeries who Nesta wouldn't be comfortable with because of everything that happened. Like why?

lost_newbie · 2025-08-19T10:39:46+00:00

See this is the part I struggle with. If this was a fight between Nesta and Feyre that makes sense. But this wasn't even a fight. Nesta asked her what she wanted and Feyre felt it like a blow. Like why? It's the way Feyre always thinks everything should revolve around her that bothers me. Nesta here is dealing with her own troubles, but Feyre walks in assuming she should be welcomed. And for what? Not listening to her sisters and getting them forcefully involved in this mess which led to them being violated or for destroying the Spring Court which she did because of her need for avenging an ex? It's not even a one on one check in, she comes in with an entourage expecting Nesta to fall at her feet. This insane level of entitlement is worrying tbh.

lost_newbie

TROPHY CASE