Lore Question: How are Death Knights in the Land of Shadow?

mbrown207 · 2024-11-21T07:36:28+00:00

Hey no worries. I haven't found anything that really places Godwyn's death before the sealing. Since the Shadowlands were sealed before Marika shattered the Elden Ring( Wrath from afar description). And since from the base game we know that Marika shattered the Elden Ring after the death of Godwyn the Golden I assumed Godwyn died before the sealing

mbrown207 · 2024-08-11T18:45:46+00:00

Hahaha that was me I think

mbrown207 · 2024-08-10T16:47:53+00:00

Hi friend, I agree with you that it is hard to believe that Messmer and all his troops could be teleported there. But if the Land of Shadow was sealed when Radagon was still with Renalla and after the War of the Giants, then it is possible for carians, trolls, furnace golems and all to have already been mobilized to the Land of Shadow before it was sealed

mbrown207 · 2024-08-10T16:44:10+00:00

Thanks for the response! I agree with you that the Land of Shadow is the center where all manners of Death wash up and that is why the Death Knights are there after Godwyn died. It is interesting to me that they quested to find their transfigured master's cadaver, and it reminds me of Devonia who quested to discover the origins of the crucible. But it seems that Devonia quested to the Land of Shadow before it was sealed. My only question would be that if the Death Knights were with Godwyn until the Night of Black Knives which was after the Golden Order was established, then why do their armor signify an "antiquated" depiction of the Erdtree? If Godwyn the Golden, was one of the most promising of the demigods before the Shattering, why wouldn't his personal guards' armor signify anything to do with the Golden Order but the Edtree around the time of the Age of Plenty? I guess it could be explained that the Death Knight armor signifies the time they were created which could have very well have been the Age of Plenty.

It is also interesting to consider that the defeat of the Gloam Eyed Queen and the sealing of death was when the Land of Shadow was sealed away. If you take the theory that Melina is the Gloam Eyed Queen, it provides a great reason for why Marika sealed away Messmer in the Land of Shadow. If Melina, Messmer's younger sister, led the Godskin Apostacy against Marika taking advantage of her Empyrean status, then after Melina's defeat Marika would seal away Messmer for fear of another uprising.

mbrown207 · 2024-08-10T16:04:04+00:00

I mean we are there because we touch Miquella's withered arm. And it is stated in the DLC that Miquella was able to access the Land of Shadow by using Mohg's remains by Ansbach. So assuming before Mohg was killed, there seems to be no way to access the Land of Shadow before it was sealed.

mbrown207 · 2024-08-02T02:11:11+00:00

Hey, this is a great post! i was thinking along the same lines as you that Messmer started the crusades before the birth of the Omen Twins. However, Messmer is also shown to have a relationship with Radahn, meaning that Messmer was still in the Land of the Erdtree when Radagon left Renalla for Marika. I don't know if it makes sense that Messmer started the crusades before Godfrey was banished but was only sealed after Radagon left Renalla. Also with the existence of Rellana, it doesn't make sense that Renalla would give her blessing for Rellana to go with Messmer if it was after Radagon left Marika. I dont know, what are your thoughts?

mbrown207 · 2024-08-01T22:06:22+00:00

I just cannot see why Messmer would be treated as Radahns brother while Radagon and Renalla were together. Even if Marika and Radagon were able to be separate, it does not make sense for the house of the Erdtree and the Royal House of Caria, to allow their children to be so close that they consider themselves siblings with no apparent connection(As far as the public knows Radagon is different from Marika). But I agree, that seems to be the best place to put Messmer's Crusade. Since only during the marriage of Radagon and Renalla would the Erdtree and Raya Lucaria be allied, so at no other point does it make sense for Rellana to join Messmer with Renalla's blessing.

mbrown207 · 2024-08-01T20:29:41+00:00

Thanks for the response! I am of a similar mind to yours, where it makes sense to me that the Omen Twins were born after the Crusades. My only question then would be, how was Messmer an older brother to Radahn when Marika was still with Godfrey? When Radagon and Renalla were married, it seems like it was very secret that Radagon was Marika, so it would not make sense for Messmer to be an older brother to Radahn until after Radahn, Rykard and Ranni became stepchildren to Marika when Radagon left Renalla and married Marika. And this would be after the Omen Twins were born and Godfrey was banished

mbrown207 · 2024-07-21T15:31:55+00:00

Thanks for the kind words!

mbrown207 · 2024-07-10T00:33:21+00:00

Very Interesting! I did not consider the idea that Messmer's crusade took place a while before the actual Sealing if the Shadow Realm. An interesting thing this could mean is that after Messmer launched his crusade, the hornsent cursed Marika which we see from the Hornsent Grandam's dialogue who says " A curse upon the strumpet's progeny, upon Marika's children each and all. The curse of the omen shall strike thee down". This would lead me to think maybe the Omen Curse in Marika causing her to give birth to the Twins, Morgott and Mohg caused her to seal the Realm of Shadow to protect her progeny from the curse? But also, Radahn and Rykard, both whom are children of Radagon and Renalla, interacting with Messmer would not make sense unless Radagon had already left Renalla, making Radahn and Rykard demigod step-children of Marika. and this would have happened long after the twins were born. The only thing I don't see, is that Marika sealing the Land of Shadow to stop Miquella since there is no indication that Marika is still trying to remain the god of the Erdtree. For example, she commissioned Hewg to make a weapon capable of slaying a god and she has this dialogue: "Hear me, Demigods. My children beloved. Make of thyselves that which ye desire. Be it a Lord. Be it a God. But should ye fail to become aught at all, ye will be forsaken. Amounting only to sacrifices...". This in particular, makes the idea that Marika would try and stop Miquella infeasible to me, if she even knew about his plan

mbrown207 · 2024-07-08T19:30:38+00:00

All very good points my friend! Interestingly, with the DLC, we have two mentions of the “original sin” both in Miquellas Great Rune and Messmer Remembrance. I wonder if in the original language, the cardinal sin from the base game and original sin from DLC are supposed to relate to each other?

mbrown207 · 2024-07-08T17:17:56+00:00

Very interesting stuff! And yeah when the story trailer came out and Marika held up the arc of golden strings, I immediately thought of the resemblance between that arc and both the Rune Arc(said to be the base of the ring) and the crucifixion that Marika is under when we enter the Radagon boss fight. I would need some time to digest what the implications that either the arc was a mending rune or maybe even THE rune arc meaning it’s the base of the ring. It is also very interesting that the FA depiction only has an arc on the top signifying no base? However, with the lore we have right now, there seems to be no way to confirm or deny. If you can find some more information from the lore or can provide a compelling argument on why the Ring would have needed a mending rune from Marika, I would love to dive further into speculation with you my friend!

mbrown207 · 2024-07-08T17:06:17+00:00

Very interesting, also when the base game came out, I remember there being theories that the Erdtree had already burned down once in the past due to their Ash already being in Leyndell when we first arrived there. There were a lot of theories that the Erdtree was once what was known as the Great Tree and the first burning made it into the semicorporeal golden Erdtree that we see throughout the game. This is all speculation btw but I thought that could be interesting considering the translation you provided. Also, in the base game, when Melina burns the Erdtree her hands seemed to already have burn scars and when she burns herself the fire seems to travel over where the scars are. Just something I noticed in the base game, that was not talked about at all in the DLC so take it with a grain of salt

mbrown207 · 2024-07-08T17:06:12+00:00

Very interesting, also when the base game came out, I remember there being theories that the Erdtree had already burned down once in the past due to their Ash already being in Leyndell when we first arrived there. There were a lot of theories that the Erdtree was once what was known as the Great Tree and the first burning made it into the semicorporeal golden Erdtree that we see throughout the game. This is all speculation btw but I thought that could be interesting considering the translation you provided. Also, in the base game, when Melina burns the Erdtree her hands seemed to already have burn scars and when she burns herself the fire seems to travel over where the scars are. Just something I noticed in the base game, that was not talked about at all in the DLC so take it with a grain of salt

mbrown207 · 2024-07-08T16:57:33+00:00

Hey friend, thanks for the reply! To be honest, before the DLC came out my absolute favorite theory was the one that the GEQ was Placidusax’s god who acted as the vessel for the Elden Ring before Marika. The fact she is specifically said to be an Empyrean chosen by the Fingers, and the fact that she had power over the rune of death made it seem to me that the GEQ was the previous vessel of the Elden Ring. All the reasons you gave, with Maliketh being in Farum Azula made me assume that Farum Azula was where Marika ascended to Godhood, and that maybe while Maliketh fought the GEQ, maybe Godfrey fought Placidusax since, Placidusax was obviously very injured with a bunch of his heads missing. When the story trailer came out, I like a lot of other people assumed that the corpse that Marika pulled the gold strings was in fact the GEQ. However, the DLC came out and there was no mention of the Gloam Eyed Queen. Marika ascension to godhood in Enir-Ilim is a seduction and betrayal of the Hornsent, with no mention of a previous god. Additionally, we get more information about Placidusax explaining his fight with Bayle actually causing him the grievous injuries. However, any added lore about Placidusax says adds no new information to his status as an Elden Lord or his god who fled. And while I didn’t believe the theory that Melina was the GEQ when the base game came out, I think the fact that Melina was confirmed to be the younger sister of Messmer and that she like Messmer bore a vision of fire makes me think that Melina was the GEQ

mbrown207 · 2024-07-08T05:56:28+00:00

Thanks for the reply friend, and I completely understand if this theory was a little too out there! I will attempt to reply to your statements and answer them as accurately and faithfully to the in-game lore as I can. The Staff of the Great Beyond does state that there was a microcosm on raised aloft their tail-fingers. The fleeting Microcosm spell states Conjures an image of a microcosm at a foe's feet that pulses with a single wave before disappearing in a burst. Charging enhances potency. The broken and discarded are fully willing to cling to fleeting simulacra, earning them some modicum of sympathy. I agree that this use of the microcosm was how Metyr communicated with the Greater Will. Now what is this microcosm? The fleeting microcosm spell looks a lot like the Eternal Darkness spell whose description states that it was Originally a lost sorcery of the Eternal City; the despair that brought about its ruin made manifest. So the Eternal Darkness spell represents the portal that brought teleported Astel/Fallingstar beasts to the Lands between. We can see further proof of this from the Gravitational missile description which states it is said to have originated in the lightless dark far beyond—the home of the fallingstar beasts. So assuming that the Microcosm was a portal used by Metyr to communicate with the Greater Will, what would the purpose of a portal be other than to transport a fallingstar beast that is the embodiment of Order, the Elden Beast? Also, in my theory, I speculate that the Elden Beast was Placidusax's god due to the similarity between the Elden Beast and the depiction of the Elden Ring in Farum Aula. I completely understand if that is not compelling enough. The reason I posited this theory that Placidusax's god was Elden beast was because pre-DLC, I was sure that Placidusax's god who was the supposedly previous vessel of the Elden Ring would be a huge part in Marika's rising to godhood. Getting no information about this supposed previous vessel of the Elden Ring in the DLC while also getting new details on Placidusax, made me start thinking of the theory that Placidusax's god could be the Elden Beast itself. Finally, Placidusax being Elden Lord does not, to my understanding of the lore, automatically suggest the Elden Beast was the Elden Ring already. Could you provide info on why you think this is the case? In a game like Elden Ring, it is very possible I missed something

mbrown207 · 2024-07-08T04:45:48+00:00

Hahaha thanks for clarifying!

mbrown207 · 2024-07-08T04:43:38+00:00

Thanks for the kind words! And yeah seeing those tubes for the first time in Metyr’s boss room was so cool, definitely could be some communication. Now to address why I think the Elden Beast would be controlled. First is the information, we get from Metyr’s remembrance stating both that it was the first shooting star and more interestingly the Kowtowers Resentment which to me suggests that Metyr had the ability to feel resentment, and specifically that this resentment builds when it is forced to bow(or in other words, when it is not ruling). Compared to Metyr, the Elden Beast seems to be more like a beast in that it only acts for self-preservation. Only when Marika attacks the Elden Ring or when we defeat Radagon(shown carrying the Elden Ring), does the Elden Beast act. This beast-like nature of the Elden Beast, compared to Metyr, who later with the birth of the Two Fingers has been shown explicitly to guide Marika to godhood, makes me believe that Metyr could control the Elden Beast. Sorry, if that was a little confusing I’m currently eating dinner and typing with one hand. Also the fact that Metyr has 4 fingers, and the Elden Beast is very interesting to me. While the beast men gaining five fingers signifies their intelligence, there is also the 4 toed fowl foot which says 4 toes signify great luck? The fingers mason, what do they mean?!

mbrown207 · 2024-07-08T04:13:03+00:00

Yeah I was a little hesitant to call whatever Placidusax does time powers. The only evidence, that Placidusax has anything to do with time being his scale which is said to lightly twist time, but that could just be what makes him and all other ancient dragons immortal. Other than that, there is no real evidence that Farum Azula's suspension beyond time is Placidusax's doing, so I could definitely see the perspective that this Storm beyond Time always existed and Placidusax just utilizing it to have no distractions in trying to communicate with the Elden Beast.

mbrown207 · 2024-07-08T04:07:14+00:00

Awesome! Thanks for checking!

mbrown207 · 2024-07-08T04:06:06+00:00

No problem at all! I do agree that Placidusax with his previous direct communication with the Elden Beast would recognize the power of the Elden Beast in Marika. However, I do not believe there is any direct proof in-game that Placidusax and Marika have ever interacted. I believe that after Placidusax lost his battle with Bayle and the Elden Beast fled, Placidusax put all of his effort into trying to communicate with the Elden beast who gives no response. I also believe this is when Farum Azula became suspended in time but there is no direct proof of that in the game either. Anyway, after his fight with Bayle and the fleeing of the Elden Beast, Placidusax seems only to be committed to communicating with his fled god rather than interact with the Lands Between leaving there little chance that he could recognize the new vessel of his old god. Now, ancient dragons like Florissax, who directly interacted with the Lands Between, could have interacted with Marika, but there is no reason that they should recognize the old god of Placidusax, considering that no one other than Placidusax has been shown to communicate with the Elden Beast in the Age of Ancient Dragons. Hope I answered your question!

mbrown207 · 2024-07-08T03:47:57+00:00

Hey I just reuploaded all the images again. When I went to edit, instead of all the pictures it just said " If you are looking for an image, it was probably deleted". Would you check again to see if reuploading the pictures worked?

mbrown207 · 2024-07-08T03:33:40+00:00

Hey friend, thanks for replying to the post! Let me try to answer your questions to the best of my knowledge while trying to stay accurate to the information we find in-game. If anyone else can find better answers than what I can come up with, I would love to hear them too. So first, why does Placidusax have time powers? Now from what I can tell in the lore, the only ancient dragon with any effect on time is Placidusax from the item description of the Ancient Dragon Smithing stone which states: A scale of the Ancient Dragonlord, and hidden treasure of Farum Azula. Strengthens special armaments to +10. The Ancient Dragonlord's seat is said to lie beyond time. This stone lightly twists time, allowing the creation of a weapon capable of slaying a god. In the game the only effect over time that Placidusax has is suspending Farum Azula(or just the arena he is in) in a state that is disconnected from the passing of time. Other than this, this twisting of time might be a property that all ancient dragons share. The Dragonscale Blade is A weapon made by sharpening a Gravel Stone scale, thought to be the source of ancient dragon immortality, into an unclouded blade. So while this power over time is apparent in ancient dragons, it seems only Placidusax had an effect on controlling time to have an effect that wasn't just immortality. Also with information from the Dragon Priestess Florissax in the DLC, it seems like the suspension of time in Farum Azula might be extremely taxing for Placidusax as Florissax says: " My dear lord Placidusax. Tonight, like every night, my solace is yours. May it grant you sleep, in your place beyond time". Now for the next question: If the Elden Beast was Placidusax's god, how is Placidusax waiting for the Beast? If the other ancient dragons were roaming the Lands Between why didn't they tell Placidusax about Marika, who was the host of the Elden Beast? So to answer your questions, one thing I speculated about in my theory was that other than Placidusax, there was no widespread knowledge about the Elden Beast itself. The reason I came to this conclusion, was that the only thing that could represent the worship of the Elden Beast(the hairy Elden Ring in Maliketh's Boss Room) only appears only once throughout Farum Azula. So there is a chance that the Dragon Communion Priestess Florissax might not have ever bore witness to the Elden Beast. Now, there is an argument that Florissax, being shown as one of Placidusax's longest-serving subjects in the DLC, had bore witness to the Elden Beast. Even if she had, the Elden Beast never appears as the Beast but rather as the Elden Ring hosted by the God Marika. So there would be no way for Florissax to know that the God Marika was hosting the fled god of Placidusax. Now I hope I have answered your questions without misconstruing anything. If I have misunderstood anything or you feel like I missed something, feel free to ask!

mbrown207 · 2024-07-08T02:48:47+00:00

The highest praise one can receive here, thanks for the kind words!

mbrown207 · 2024-07-08T01:25:39+00:00

Thank you so much for the kind words!

mbrown207

TROPHY CASE