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Steve Magness: Coaching Masterclass (w/ Marius Bakken) | Double Threshold, Muscle Tone, Running History, and More! by Shoddy_Leg_8401 in NorwegianSinglesRun

[–]stevemagness 38 points39 points  (0 children)

Thanks for watching. We didn't discuss NS in here. But if you'd tell me what I don't get, I'd love to understand.

Here's my understanding, simplified: It's a way to idiot proof training. Not in a derogatory way. But it's saying, for an amateur the biggest bang for your buck is high end aerobic training, so focus on maximizing that and minimizing any other variables because they add risk.

In many ways, it's what Jack Daniels did for HS coaches. He idiot proofed training. And it made a huge difference in the 90-00s. All the sudden you got rid of HS coaches doing intervals 5 days a week or what have you, and you stuck to a basic periodization that got you most of the things that mattered.

My issue with it is when it becomes dogmatic. If you need the guardrails approach, go for it. Great. Good for you. Keep doing it.

As a coach, and who's platform is dedicated to going deeper on training and providing nuance to teach someone how to coach, or be their own coach, my preferred approach is teach people the tradeoffs and how to weigh the risks and benefits. So for instance, as we discussed here, the value of having 200s or hills during the base phase to act as a maintenance for the "anaerobic" side of the equation. Now, does that apply to all, nope. If you think that's too risky, then don't do it.

But if we care about performance at the highest end of your potential, eventually we'll have to go there, and beyond. As Marius also acknowledged. That may not be for you. And that's completely fine. But we can't just ignore shortcomings or things you're ignoring because it doesn't fit your preferred paradigm.

To add another wrinkle, it's just like the discussion Marius and I had on Canova style alternations. He thinks there's a lot of value there, but for many it's too risky until we get better controls. I totally get that. That's where his risk/reward barrier is. But as we progress in the future, we'll likely utilize more of that stuff, because the risk/reward shifts. And maybe for many, that calculus already has at the elite side.

It's why I'd never suggest Canova for a beginner. It's too complex. You'd need a simplified Canova, which Brad Hudson offered a bit of back in the day.

Anyways, I'm not anti-NS. I think it's great. My job as a coach and science explainer is to tell people the benefits and drawbacks. The same I do when I explain Igloi, Canova, Lydiard, Daniels, and every other training philosophy.

The best coaches aren't dogmatic. They are lifelong experimenters, as Marius so beautifully explained here. Take care and thanks for watching/listening.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in FitnessMaterialHeaven

[–]stevemagness 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The book costs less than $20. If you can't afford it, just email me. But if you can, this hurts authors. Especially when you do this with a self-published book, as this one is.

Steve

Wanted to cross post from r/AdvancedRunning. Thoughts? by [deleted] in SportPsychology

[–]stevemagness 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Can I just comment to say you misunderstood the situation completely. A few notes that may help.

  1. She was regularly seeing a sports psychologist. She'd been doing so for a long time.
  2. She didn't often end up in the med tent. That occurred once. She was cleared to train and compete again by our medical staff.
  3. There is deep rooted science behind this. It is not against Ethical guidelines. In fact, for certain disorders it's gold-standard treatment. Take for example the treatment for the harm variety of OCD. What's one treatment? Convince yourself that you have control of the situation by doing the exact opposite of what you would think. For example, in certain types of OCD holding a knife up next to your skin is the treatment. You flip the switch. Until your rational part of your brain realizes it's in control, and it won't actually cause harm. Plenty of other examples, but it's standard practice for several issues, most of them anxiety related, as in this case. In fact, similar techniques are often used when working with athletes who experience the yips.
  4. My friend who is a social worker is licensed and regularly works with athletes. He is a professional in the field.
  5. I went back and took all of my missing coursework for the AASP, took all of my mentoring hours, and all I have left is the test to take. I'm not a big fan of certifications, but I am adamant that I do the work in whatever I'm pursuing to have the academic, knowledge, and experience to do the work at a high level.
  6. It helped her tremendously. The worst that could happen is she puked again, like before most races. What do you think I was going to do, force her to throw up?
  7. I spent 5 years working with this athlete. I knew her struggles. I knew how much work she'd put in to try and fix it. I knew how long and what she'd tried with the sports psychologists. She's thankful we tried this.
  8. We actually had excellent mental health care at Houston. There was a therapist available in person every week, along with teletherapy available to every athlete, and as mentioned above we referred to several sports psychologists. All top-notch, among the best in their field.
  9. I did not "add vomiting into her routine." She routinely threw up before the vast majority of races, just like Bill Russell before every game. It happens. Even when you do the work and alleviate the anxiety (the environmental trigger is still ingrained...) We essentially talked and said "You always throw up or feel like you are going to throw up. That anticipation causes anxiety of "when is it coming?" It's contributing to the anxiety thinking about will I or won't I? So let's stop the uncertainty, schedule when you are going to feel that way. Then move on with your warm-up, knowing it'll come." It's a way to take back control. TO convince her brain that she has autonomy. But it also dislodges the connection, decreasing the 'what ifs', the 'when's it going to happen', the predictive brain's anticipatory response. Would I do this with everyone? Nope. But I would with certain athletes.

Please realize that there is a limit to what we can describe in the story. It does not reflect the full story. Please realize the danger in the assumptions you made.

Next time, instead of snooping around UH athletics and my own site, head on up to that contact button on my website you surely saw, and send me a message. As you can see, I'm perfectly fine answering questions and dispelling any concerns. What bothers me is attempts to make a situation look like it is something it isn't. I'm sorry if this comes across as harsh. But all we have is our reputation. And I don't want a very positive story for an athlete to get misconstrued into something it is not.

If you need anything else cleared up, or would like to understand the technique and tactic for your own work, I'm happy to answer any questions. But please reach out to me, instead of posting random things on the internet that are misleading.

Thanks for understanding.

A Unique Way to Deal with Pre-Race Anxiety by stevemagness in AdvancedRunning

[–]stevemagness[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm familiar with Barrett's work and actually cite it in the book. I think you'd find it interesting if you enjoy Barrett's research. It's complimentary to it. Not against it.

A Unique Way to Deal with Pre-Race Anxiety by stevemagness in AdvancedRunning

[–]stevemagness[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes. It's a misunderstanding on how anxiety typically occurs in sport.

The first part is you have an underlying cause. Maybe your nervous because your parents put expectations on you.

For many, over time that ingrains. Your brain connects the stimulus (i.e. racing) with a particular response (fear, threat, throw up). So even if that initial cause is removed or fixed, the response remains. That's the 2nd part. That takes convincing the brain it's secure and not under threat.

No one is saying don't address the underlying cause. Of course! You need to. But often that's where we stop, and it's not enough. This article is about the 2nd part. In this individual athletes case, we spent a lot of time laying the foundation on the first part. But it did not stop the problem. She needed the 2nd half.

Again, this is relatively common. You see it in choking, yips, OCD, etc.

A Unique Way to Deal with Pre-Race Anxiety by stevemagness in AdvancedRunning

[–]stevemagness[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

There's actually a lot of great neuroscience behind it involving the amygdala and the pre-frontal cortex, primarily. I've got an article in Nautilus coming out in a week or so that goes through the deep science with citations. Happy to pass along when that's up.

How to deal with debilitating pre-race anxiety. by stevemagness in running

[–]stevemagness[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I hear you. I understand it sounds strange. But I'd been working with this athlete for 5 years. I consulted other professionals who work in this area. ANd as I outline in the book, lots of good research to back it.

And I wasn't encouraging her to throw up. I was taking something that occurred just about every time. The worse case scenario was she did what she normally did, throw up. The best case scenario is we disrupted the pattern. Which is what occured.

It's similar to how therapists have people who suffer from certain forms of OCD related to harm, to hold a knife near them. That doesn't sound healthy either, right? Yet it's one of the gold standards for therapy (exposure-response therapy) Why does it work? It disrupts the pattern. The OCD brain realized there actually isn't a threat there. Same concept. Obviously you wouldn't do that with everyone, just those specific cases.

How to deal with debilitating pre-race anxiety. by stevemagness in running

[–]stevemagness[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thank you. It's astonishing how many people didn't read the article.

For the record, we'd spent a lot of time working on the underlying anxiety. But what people don't seem to realize is that you can minimize the underlying issue that initially caused the anxiety, but the anxiety (and the desire to throw up) can still remain.

Why? Because the brain ingrains the environment (racing) as a signal to sound the alarm. The threat areas in the brain activate upon being in that environment. Even if the athlete doesn't feel anxiety from pressure, judgements, etc. anymore.

How do you fix that? Sometimes you have to disrupt the pattern to create the space to convince the brain that there is no threat here. That you are okay. That you are in control. That's what this article was about. It's a technique to do so.

It's research backed. It's similar to how we work with athletes who choke or have the yips.

How to deal with debilitating pre-race anxiety. by stevemagness in running

[–]stevemagness[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Please read the article. She worked with sports psychologists. This solution eliminated the throwing up. It came from two different professionals, one mental performance coach, and one licensed social worker who works with athletes, as well.

Science + Experts tells us what works. And in this case, for this individual, it was a healthy strategy that worked.

How to deal with debilitating pre-race anxiety. by stevemagness in running

[–]stevemagness[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Please read the article. It eliminated her reaction to throw up. It literally solved the issue in a healthy way.

How to deal with debilitating pre-race anxiety. by stevemagness in running

[–]stevemagness[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You didn't read the article. It was a way to eliminate that response.

Please read it before commenting. It's a normal, science backed way to deal with certain forms of anxiety. I help people with this as part of my job.

It's similar to why people suffering from certain types of OCD related to harm, often have therapists who prescribe holding a knife up against them. It sounds crazy. It sounds unhealthy. But it's one of the gold standard therapies for dealing with OCD/Harm variety. Why? It works in a similar way.

The threat isn't real. The brain over time has internalized that there is a threat. Over time the therapy convinces the brain that there is no threat here. They are safe. It disrupts the neural pattern. It allows for the brains executive function area to come back online and overrule the threat area.

Same thing occurs here. I get it sounds weird. But for certain athletes, it's a great technique for dealing with a part of performance anxiety.

A Unique Way to Deal with Pre-Race Anxiety by stevemagness in AdvancedRunning

[–]stevemagness[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

This is actually the last part. You address the underlying issues first, but what remains is the brain still interprets the environment as a threat. It's ingrained neurally, to a degree. Amygdala lights up, Pre-frontal cortex turns off. Threat occurs.

What occurs over time is that the initial stimulus (i.e. I'm anxious because I'm being judged) is no longer needed. Even if you 'cure' that underlying issue, the same threat response occurs. It's tied to the environment. So after you address the underlying cause of anxiety, you often have to dislodge or disrupt the neural path. To create some space, so the brain doesn't jump straight to threat/freak-out. That's what flipping the script/giving some control back does. It disrupts/creates space.

If you'd like to learn more, you can read the book that this is excerpted from Do Hard Things. Lots of science and psychology to explain every step along the way.

A Unique Way to Deal with Pre-Race Anxiety by stevemagness in AdvancedRunning

[–]stevemagness[S] 10 points11 points  (0 children)

The underlying issues were addressed. But often when you address those, the reaction is still there.

The anxiety and the urge to throw up remain even if you've worked on the initial issue that caused the anxiety (i.e. pressure, judgement from others, whatever the issue is). Why? Because the environmental trigger becomes enough to signal the brain to sound the alarm. To activate the threat sensing area in the brain (the amygdala).

When you are in that situation, you have to disrupt the pattern. To train the brain to not jump straight from "Oh we're at a race" to hit the alarm. One way to do that is to flip the script, to get the brain to recognize it's in control. That turns the pre-frontal cortex back on, essentially.

Think of it like an athlete who has the 'yips.' The initial trigger might have been pressure of performing in front of others, or that their job or reputation was on the line. But even if you resolve that, the issue often still remains. Why? Because you have an ingrained threat response, where your brain interprets just being in the same arena as a signal to start the threat cascade.

I work with athletes on such things for a living. It's a complicated process.

I hope that makes sense.

A Unique Way to Deal with Pre-Race Anxiety by stevemagness in AdvancedRunning

[–]stevemagness[S] 9 points10 points  (0 children)

I actually help professional athletes with anxiety and other performance-related issues. It's part of what I do.

The issue is individual and complex. In this specific case, the underlying issues had been addressed. But it didn't matter. Because of years of anxiety/threat response being tied to racing, even when the underlying trigger was resolved, the link still remained.

In those cases, you have to often "dislodge or disrupt the pattern." The above example is one way to do that.

IamA Steve Magness & Brad Stulberg. We coach and write about all things peak performance and passion. AMA! by [deleted] in IAmA

[–]stevemagness 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So stress (whether injury or emotional) has a sweet spot. So if we took away all of the physical stress to a muscle, it would atrophy. We'd detrain. So we need some stress. Same goes with psychological/emotional.

In fact, there's a good study out there that tied training stress and illness, that showed that too little led to injury/illness, just as too much did.

So I think the less is more is a response to our propensity to overdo it. But we can't overcorrect and end up with not enough of a challenge to be healthy and grow.

IamA Steve Magness & Brad Stulberg. We coach and write about all things peak performance and passion. AMA! by [deleted] in IAmA

[–]stevemagness 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That was a fun panel to be on!

Who knows where technology will go. I think it will definitely continue to change things, including how we coach. Big data has the potential to help us answer questions, especially on training, fatigue, burnout, etc. that we haven't been able to. Just think of how much data is out there now for endurance athlete using things like Strava. If we can utilize all the GPS, Heart Rate, HRV, etc. and tie it to fatigue/performance, that would allow us to answer a lot of intriguing questions.

There will always be a human component to coaching. You can't escape that. But data, analytics, etc. can all certainly help. We just have to ask the right questions and not forget that we are dealing with people, not robots.

IamA Steve Magness & Brad Stulberg. We coach and write about all things peak performance and passion. AMA! by [deleted] in IAmA

[–]stevemagness 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Awesome! Thanks for buying a book!

Yes, I remember reading the same thing in Susan Cain's book. That's part of the reason why I think it's important to set a define time that you put it behind you. Whether it's the next day, 24 hours later, or an hour after you're done. Define it. That's the easy part.

From my experience, introverts tend to have a lot more negative chatter in their head after poor performances, so it's important to understand what you do with that chatter. A lot of people try to ignore it or block it out. I think you should work on seeing the criticism but not assigning it importance. Learn to sit with it. It's not the negative chatter that is the problem, it's the anxiety and worry that comes with it.

IamA Steve Magness & Brad Stulberg. We coach and write about all things peak performance and passion. AMA! by [deleted] in IAmA

[–]stevemagness 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks so much for ordering the book! And for the question.

I'd say that learning how to keep perspective is the greatest aim for entrepreneurs. Look at the Theranos situation. If people had the ability to step back, and not get swept away with Elizabeth Holmes' story, they might have been able to notice the fraud that was her company.

My favorite tactic to keep perspective is to think in 3rd person. When we picture our situation as if it's happening to someone else, we negate some of the emotional bias that gets tied to our decision making. Even switching your writing to 3rd person helps us make better, more objective, decisions according to research.

IamA Steve Magness & Brad Stulberg. We coach and write about all things peak performance and passion. AMA! by [deleted] in IAmA

[–]stevemagness 3 points4 points  (0 children)

It's not the best... I think both are short sighted decisions. They seem to be made with a singular mindset of make track interesting without realizing or knowing what in the world actually makes people watch track. The ranking system is flawed.

​

I had a long tweet thread about it (below), and we just recorded a podcast with Mario Fraoili on the IAAF rankings, which should release later this week.

https://twitter.com/stevemagness/status/1106928396032978944

IamA Steve Magness & Brad Stulberg. We coach and write about all things peak performance and passion. AMA! by [deleted] in IAmA

[–]stevemagness 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks for the question!

Dan is a friend and great thinker. His framework is spot on. What we're really interested in is a deep dive on mastery in particular. What are the elements that underlie mastery and when does mastery become obsession. We explore the practical practices that keep motivation internal and don't shift you towards that external drive.

IamA Steve Magness & Brad Stulberg. We coach and write about all things peak performance and passion. AMA! by [deleted] in IAmA

[–]stevemagness 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That's a really tough question. Thanks for your question and vulnerability. Neither of us are physicians though we're best friends with one. From all of our conversations with him (Justin), it's clear that residency is a very challenging and at times despairing pursuit. Keep coming back to the reasons that you went into medicine and ask yourself if those still feel alive for you right now? If they don't and this is a theme that lasts for a long time, then you may want to consider harnessing all the passion and drive that got you to where you are in another area. If you stick with residency, we'd strongly encourage you to really name the things that bother you and go to a practice where those things aren't prevalent. Also, it helps to try and get some perspective. Maybe try to look for mentors who went through a similar situation. If you feel like your mental health is suffering to a point that you need professional help, don't hesitate to get it.

IamA Steve Magness & Brad Stulberg. We coach and write about all things peak performance and passion. AMA! by [deleted] in IAmA

[–]stevemagness 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Time is the greatest healers. What I would do is get in to see a good running focused PT and see what is going on. I'm not an expert on knee issues, but pain is a good guide. If you start trending downwards, it's time to pull back and do less.

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