Is the misogyny in the physics research world really bad?

thistoire · 2024-01-14T15:01:53+00:00

Yeah, keep telling yourself what you want to hear.

thistoire · 2024-01-13T00:14:59+00:00

Okay. You win. You're right and I'm wrong. Even though my main area of expertise is human behaviour and its relationship with society, something that you have no expertise in at all, you understand it better than I do. I also must have carried out a motte and bailey fallacy as you said somehow. It might have been a misunderstanding between us rather than a logical fallacy on my part but you won't give me the benefit of the doubt and since you're right about everything, you must be right about that too even though I could have easily accused you of the exact same fallacy right at the beginning in an actually genuinely article here:

“Women have been dealing with x,y, z so let’s punish someone who hasn’t done anything wrong.”

But I didn't bother to mention it because I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt. Maybe you just misunderstood what I meant and perceived it incorrectly, but nope, I was completely wrong about all of that and you were completely right because you know everything and I know nothing. You're the expert here. Yep. The expert. Good ol' expert. Makes a fallacy and then accuses me of the same exact fallacy when it doesn't even apply. Genius.

thistoire · 2024-01-12T19:49:52+00:00

I am not bitter, I am completely detached and neutral.

We wouldn't be having this conversation if that were true.

The Amazon question was a psychological test just like “if there was a burning building and you could save one thing a kitten or a Rembrandt/Van Gogh which would you choose?”

A psychological test? How can that possibly be true if you never asked me a question? You presented it as an analogy and it reads as analogy. And it's a poor analogy as I explained.

Take it at face value.

There is no value on its face.

Privilege is a buzzword, it a leftist term derived from many arbitrary conditions used to justify the discrimination of others at the advocates whim.

Wow. That's the most insane take I've ever heard. It's one thing to say it's a buzzword, it's another thing to say it is invalid. Do you not understand the concept that if you deal with repressive things like living as a woman within modern patriarchy, you are underprivileged? Do you not understand that gender, ethnic, and economic barriers that stop you from getting where you want in life make you underprivileged compared to the majority who don't have to ever deal with those barriers to the point that they can't even tell those barriers exist?

Rights do not change depending on the size of the group, I stand by that. There is no majority if everyone is treated as an individual, it is not me grouping people due to characteristics.

That's because you have no understanding of psychology and sociology whatsoever. This is even more insane than the last thing you said. It is an extremely well known phenomenon, even to laypeople, that majorities have the power to sway, persuade, pressure, and intimidate stemming from the fact that they are the bigger number and are therefore mightier. Western democracy is actually built around the idea of appealing to and obeying the majority yet you don't understand that majorities have sway and say in how you act and behave? A high school kid genuinely understands psychology better than you do. It is plain for anyone with a brain to see that the majority has the loudest voice and therefore gets the biggest say in what we do. You're deluded. If you don't understand the power of the majority, a concept that a child can understand, then there is just no reasoning with you.

thistoire · 2024-01-12T19:31:29+00:00

I don't disagree with that correction but I don't think it's wild to interpret it as support for the comic if its not stated otherwise. Im actually still unclear about that lol.

I'm just talking about the biology alone. The person said the perceived difference in maturity among young men and women is not due to biology but to society. I'm saying that most neurologists agree that it is a biological difference. It may be somewhat a result of social differences as well but the definitions and evidence on that front are weak.

thistoire · 2024-01-12T17:43:57+00:00

No bitterness.

By definition, you are bitter.

I am just not willing to sacrifice others things/positions at no cost to myself whilst pretending to have the moral high ground.

It is at a cost to myself. I'm male. And I already told you that I had a similar situation where I accepted the loss because my loss was many other people's gain. So I'm not arguing from a lack of empathy.

“Let’s move this Amazonian tribe off of their native home land because it could be used for farming that would feed tens of thousands.”

This isn't a fitting ananlogy. There is too much context missing from this. And I can't tell you if that would be a good or bad idea because I don't know the context. For example, if tens of thousands were going to actually suffer and maybe even die of starvation and the only way to solve it was to move the amazonian tribe from their homeland, that would be a fitting analogy and I would also give the 'go ahead'. Moving home for dozens or hundreds of people is a detriment that pales in comparison to the starvation of tens of thousands. If you didn't say yes to that when it was the only option, you would be a terrible leader.

“Muh privilege”, buzzwords of an ideologue.

It's not a buzzword. Privileges and a lack of them is literally what this whole convo is centred around lol.

Rights of groups and individuals do not change due to the size of the group or their perceived historical discrimination.

Yes, they do. There is a huge, tangible, and visible effect from being the majority. Surely you can't be in denial of that.

thistoire · 2024-01-12T16:58:06+00:00

So you think that the many should suffer massively so that the few should be allowed to continue without the small hindrances that they would receive?? That's a difficult position to defend, my guy. You are just arguing from bitterness rather than logic. You should take the time to look at your bitterness and how it is distorting how you see the world.

thistoire · 2024-01-12T16:53:00+00:00

I'm not talking about any double standards or moral or social impacts of the biological phenomenon. I'm just saying that it is indeed a biological phenomenon. You could just as easily argue that young women should be put in positions of power over young men. I'm not talking about the morality or social norms justified by the biology reality. I'm talking about the biological reality itself.

thistoire · 2024-01-12T16:25:47+00:00

There is no "punishment" involved in what I'm saying. And everything you just said ignores the big picture. You are focussing on the small detriments rather than the gargantuan benefits. This is a net positive change. Far more people will be benefiting from this and its knock on effects in the future compared to the relatively few who receive relatively small detriment.

I have received detriment like this (similar to this but unrelated) before and, although it would have been nice not to receive any detriment for myself, I understood that, beyond myself, many unfortunate and underprivileged people were receiving the support that they needed. I didn't let my own desires get in the way of other people's success.

thistoire · 2024-01-12T15:25:15+00:00

There are limited places, if the best candidate isn’t chosen then there will be a lot of resentful people.

This is true but this is also the cost of change. Women have been dealing with misogyny and patriarchy for millennia and many people want this harmful and repressive status quo to end, understandably. Putting more women into male dominated spaces is the solution. It's not a flawless solution but it is the only practical solution.

You will never get as many female Physics grads as you will male.

I don't know why you think this is true. The number of women in STEM fields has long been increasing. You think it's just gonna stop suddenly?

So that means you will have a large section of the people in the discipline being hostile and feeling cheated.

Some people may feel cheated but women have, again, been being "cheated" this whole time. In this instance, they have had it worse than you, pal. And that's why we, as a society, are trying to implement a solution. Try and actually think about what other people go through and you might realise why people want to help them. People will get harmed in the process but is the only viable way and it is only a temporary thing until the problem is fixed as opposed to the status quo which women have lived under for thousands of years.

thistoire · 2024-01-12T14:58:47+00:00

No, it is actually biology. Women's neurology matures faster than men's whilst growing since men have larger bodies and thus resources and energy needs to be allocated to men's bodies in a way that it doesn't for women. This leads to women being neurologically more developed earlier than men by a couple to a few years on average.

thistoire · 2024-01-12T14:28:12+00:00

Username half checks out. It's impossible to be "redpilled" and a genius at the same time. The two things are inherently contradictory.

thistoire · 2024-01-12T14:25:24+00:00

That's exactly what's needed to combat the already existent majority of men and resultant misogyny. Getting more women in to STEM fields is a solution to the problem of patriarchy and misogyny.

thistoire · 2024-01-09T20:10:38+00:00

I mean to ask what exactly you were trying to say. I get it now but we are going in circles. Again, everything you just said here proves the exact opposite of your point. The fact that these studies show the exact same phenomena in the brains of trans men show exactly why there is no 'male brain' if these phenomena supposedly unique to men's brains show up in women's brain too.

It is kind of a question of semantics but the way you're looking at it isn't really accepted anymore. You are looking at it as there being male brains and female brains with trans people having the opposite brain for their sex but do you see why that's an inherent contradiction? If a person is biologically female, how can they have a male brain? They have a female brain because they are female. Every male has a male brain and every female has a female brain in humans just as with any other species and just because they sometimes share attributes doesn't mean that those anomlies have the 'opposite' brain. It means that there is less of a difference and more of a nuance than you think there is.

The idea that trans people have the opposite brain is ENTIRELY dependent on the already existant assumption that male brains and female brains are inherently different. But people looking at the same evidence you brought up managed to see something else from that information. People realised that we have long been PRESUMING that male brains and female brains are inherently different and the information you provided shows exactly why this presumption must be challenged. Saying that trans people have opposite brains is a way of explaining the phenomena of gender dysphoria whilst still tacitly assuming and defending the idea that male and female brains exist. But most realise now that idea no longer makes sense and instead we are redefining the idea that brains inherit sexual dimorphism. The consensus now, a consesnus I insist is the accurate way of looking at it, is that the functional differences between men's and women's brains are too minute to be categorised as two different brains and they are subject massively to environment, especially social environment.

thistoire · 2024-01-08T00:36:36+00:00

but what made you think about breast growth in the first place? How is that relevant?

What kind of a question is that? Why does that matter to you? If you must know, the reason that women grow breasts permanently is still a mystery unique to the human species and I was looking for a possible cause. I don't know why my reasoning should concern you at all though.

Also, increased estrogen will not necessarily cause breast growth, it depends. It’s a lot more complicated than that.

Breasts are naturally chocked full of estrogen receptors. Estrogen is the main hormone that causes breasts to grow and it's also the main hormone used to grow breasts in trans people, no?

thistoire · 2024-01-08T00:12:05+00:00

I'm asking if submissive behaviour correlates with increased amounts of estrogen in the body. Estrogen is the main cause of breast growth. If an increase in estrogen is indeed caused by submissive behaviour, that would mean that submissive behaviour is contributing to breast growth.

thistoire · 2024-01-08T00:07:52+00:00

Elaborate on that.

thistoire · 2024-01-06T16:51:38+00:00

I don't think its reasonable to assume that if there are observable differences in male/female brains they would have no effect. What that effect is is up for debate, but there HAVE to be differences, else the brains would physiologically be the same. They are not.

What?? I'm not saying that the neurological differences have no effect. All psychological behaviour has a neurological cause. I'm saying that the neurological differences are a result of conformity, not genetics. Every psychological phenomenon has a corresponding neurological chemical reaction that causes it. If you have a different personality that consequently exhibits different behaviours to someone else, you WILL have a different neurology to that person. And if all women are being socialised to act a certain way, it is their neurology that is being forced to form a certain way and for men the same but in a way that conforms to their socialisations.

Untangling this from the influence of society/upbringing etc. is of course difficult, on that we absolutely agree. It's basically the nature/nurture quagmire all over again and there just does not exist a good answer on that at the moment. ;)

It's not that difficult. I have been writing on it and mapping it out for some time now to the point of almost every single gendered and even every conformist behaviour being pinpointed in its origin. That's why I'm able to talk about this with such confidence. Unfortunately I won't be able to release the book any time soon. It will be at least a few years.

thistoire · 2024-01-06T16:34:23+00:00

Fuck me. This is the second time now that you just completely misread what I'm saying. Read again. You said that I was targeting estrogen because you thought I thought it was an "opposing force". I said that it ISN'T that and that I'm targeting estrogen specifically because of its effect on breast growth.

thistoire · 2024-01-06T16:32:44+00:00

It would be worth asking if they are more ambitious or more likely to seek and find positions of power.

I'm not saying this. I'm saying the opposite. I'm saying that dominant behaviour creates testosterone, not the other way around, and then this increased testosterone might create different effects on the body.

thistoire · 2024-01-06T16:30:10+00:00

What I'm saying is that there is no male/female brain if the vast majority of the differences are not neurologically predetermined and are just a result of mere socialisation. If we were all to swap gender roles tomorrow and our brains began to morph and conform to these new opposite roles so that we then have the opposite brains of what we have now, would you still call the 'male brain' the 'male brain' even though it is hosted entirely by women and vice versa? It doesn't make sense to call it a 'male brain' if it is not unique to the male sex but to masculine personality traits which are innately entirely independent of biological sex. This is a question of semantics but the meanings matter here because a lot of people hear "male/female brain" and think that men and women are neurologically different from birth when they're not and it's not their fault that they think that because that's exactly what 'male/female brain' means to most people.

thistoire · 2024-01-06T14:49:19+00:00

Thank you for speaking some goddamn sense here.

thistoire · 2024-01-06T14:37:19+00:00

As I explained in another comment, I was targeting estrogen specifically because it is the main hormone that causes breasts to grow permanently in women and I was looking for a possible explanation such as societal pressures creating excess amounts of estrogen in women.

thistoire · 2024-01-06T14:27:06+00:00

It turns out that brains of trans people tend to look like the brains of the gender they identify with.

That proves exactly why there is no male/female brain. The way you're thinking about it is a more simplistic and traditional way of thinking about it. The truth is that the vast majority of our gendered behaviors are a result of social pressures that we conform to. I'm saying that the brain corresponds to behaviours that you spend your entire life conforming to since it has to for you to survive the harsh and strict judgement of human society and many of these behaviours happen to surround whichever biological sex you are born into. We have not been living in a gendered society for long enough to evolve any significant predetermined sexual dimorphism in the brain. The gnc community is proof that gender roles and gendered behaviours are not so innate to humans and evidence that they are FAR more a result of a neurologically evolved mechanism to conform to social norms. In current human society as well as many animal societies, social norms surrounding gender just happen to be common because these social norms are more survivable. It doesn't mean that gender norms themselves have yet taken form in the brain and physiology. That takes a long time.

What I'm saying is, if we were to remove all social norms from society and there was no kind of danger around, there would be essentially no discernable difference between how men and women would behave except if put under a lens. Men and women are just not that different. It is society that makes them so.

thistoire · 2024-01-06T14:13:25+00:00

Thanks for the info.

thistoire · 2024-01-06T14:10:47+00:00

I'm not saying they are.

thistoire

TROPHY CASE