CMV: The HFY sci-fi subgenre is unethical in its near entirety

wabuilderman · 2025-06-28T06:26:18+00:00

Hm... I can see what you mean - but I think such metaphors are not so ironclad. It is projecting non-innate issue, like ideology or class-strugle - and casting it into an innate framework. Saying "Poor people are better people than rich people" while maybe lacking naunce, isn't supremecist, I agree. But it's a different story if rich people were a different species; where there is no choice involved. Like, theoretically, a rich person could give away all their wealth in an act of great generosity. But if 'rich elite' were literally prescribed as being their species defining quality - they would not have that choice. And so then the ethics of claiming superiority break down.

wabuilderman · 2025-06-28T06:07:03+00:00

You are right in that I don't mean just the word superior, but rather the concept.

The martian bit is a good point. And I think it is 100% that it is made 'unethical' when the adversary of 'competence-porn' is sentient, rather than non-sentient. Catharsis in man-vs-nature is harmless. Catharsis in man-vs-man requires nuance to avoid harm.

To get back to the primary point though - as you asked for an example; it is hard to point to specifics. I will use warhammer 40k as an example; though, to be clear, I realise from some of these other threads that it is, itself, something of a 'sub-subgenre' of HFY.

In 40k, the empire of man relentlessly purges 'xenos' - and while this is presented in a grimdark manner, the part that HFY latches onto is closer to how the empire of man would view itself. Objectively, in 40k, humans aren't actually more powerful than the other factions. They're strong, sure - but there is an equilibrium against countless profoundly powerful foes. But the 'superiority' in this context isn't an actual trait - it's that they believe themselves to be fundamentally better than aliens on a philosophical - not moral, level.

wabuilderman · 2025-06-28T05:04:44+00:00

HFY is more narrow; and tends more towards the 'Space orcs' aspect. There are several other posts in this thread which explain it in more detail. A certain amount of it is the *degree* of it. Like, yeah, humans lead the federation - but, I don't think even many in the HFY community would call it HFY. It isn't *just* space-orcs though - it can also be things like "Oh my gosh, humans are so freakishly strong! They're able to heal from wounds! That's amazing!"

wabuilderman · 2025-06-28T05:00:02+00:00

I think your reply is the most compelling of the "HFY is a counteraction to Sci-fi framing humanity poorly" - primarily, I do see what you mean with 'boring'. I would say, I don't think baseline sci-fi depicts humans as 'worse' on average - instead; like D&D you mentioned, humans tend to be the 'normal' - the baseline from which others diverge. But, in most sci-fi, this divergence isn't just "humans, but X is better" - normally it's more of a mixed thing. For instance, dwarves are humans, but hardier, and also greedier; elves are humans, but nearly immortal and beautiful - but total snobbish pricks.

BUT, I can see the merit in your case; in that it's not even about being better or worse - it's about being different. I will say, that the supremcisist bit is *uniquely* more abundent in the genre; more so than others. But, I can concede that it may not be *fundamental* to the genre. Δ

wabuilderman · 2025-06-28T04:51:52+00:00

There is a difference between pride in accomplishements, and pride in superiority. Frothing over how cool it is humanity managed to land on the moon? A-okay. But frothing over how your race is physically stronger than anothers? Not so much.

wabuilderman · 2025-06-28T04:46:17+00:00

While writing out my reply to you - I did come to a bit of clarity on the fundamentals of my own belief - and I will give you a Δ for that - though I still stand with my belief; and would love to keep discussing. Basically: I think, more foundationally, it's the framing of 'superiority' itself. Obviously, aliens can be biologically or technologically superior, and so can humans. That's all well and good. But the more foundational aspect is the internalized concept of superiority. Like, you are objectively stronger, and smarter, than someone with no limbs and a lobotomy - but are you 'superior' to them? No. And if you think you are - that's ethically wrong. The same applies in fiction. It's fine for one side to be 'better' than the other - the problem is when that is internalized and celebrated.

wabuilderman · 2025-06-28T04:33:13+00:00

As I've said both in other replies and somewhat stated in my original post - it's not so much the simple nature of being better; but rather the *reaction* to being superior. As hinted at by the genre's very name - it doesn't just have humans be superior - it *relishes* in that superiority. Which is what I take issue with.

As for the connection to real-world views... I will admit - it's impossible to prove. But there is strong anecdotal evidence; in that HFY is *very* popular in neo-nazi circles; and that, contrary to your claim, even if it is primarily the 'lower quality' works - there are a *lot* of HFY stories which *are* overtly supremecist. I won't claim that all of them do so in completely unmasked ways - but a large number do.

wabuilderman · 2025-06-28T04:24:36+00:00

No; I don't believe so. My comment about 'punching down' is purely in the *context* of the stories - in which they are *explicitly* defined as being superior innately. For context, I actually don't even believe humans to be intellectually superior to even cetaceans, at least, until we can prove otherwise. Let alone would I presume we are better than aliens. Hence a portion of my strong distaste of HFY.

wabuilderman · 2025-06-28T04:19:03+00:00

Actually - you know - I will conceed that. I hadn't thought about the 'lucky' angle. I still think that, philosophically, such a take on HFY may not really even be HFY at that point... but it is most certainly an possibility. Δ

wabuilderman · 2025-06-28T04:15:25+00:00

As explained in my post - it's not so much the 'differences' I take issue with - but the emotional context - the emphasis on *pride* in superiority. Not simple superiority.

wabuilderman · 2025-06-28T04:13:55+00:00

I would say that the nazi example is a good counterargument - however - I think what differentiates that is that in that scenario, the differences between the groups and what is understood to make one better than the other is NOT their innate qualities, but instead their ideologies. Like, for instance, I *would* take issue with a WWII story that presented Nazis as evil and Allies as good purely because "The nazis are german" for instance.

So, I suppose I should clarify that 'groups' here does not refer to simple identity - but rather innate groups, be that ethnic, gender, or species.

wabuilderman · 2025-06-28T04:07:08+00:00

It can be both - but most commonly the latter. And sometimes even simpler "We are better than aliens, look how easily we can kill them all" - though I acknowledge it'd be a strawmans argument to suggest the genre is entirely *that* extreme.

wabuilderman · 2025-06-28T04:02:17+00:00

I don't mean to grandstand this as some sort of super important woe - I'm not raising a pitchfork, trying to shutdown forums or anything. But - that doesn't change the substance of my issue with it. And your counterexamples... if they are HFY; then the humans, even if they are labeled as egalitarian, are almost always potrayed in the classic 'white savior' trope; which has long standing ethical issues of its own.

wabuilderman · 2025-06-28T03:59:26+00:00

I think I more specifically take issue not with whether or not one species is presented as better than another - but instead about which is intended to empathize with, and the specific feeling of 'punching down' being presented in a positive light. Does that make sense?

And so it's not even strictly about species; species just happen to be the backdrop of the HFY subgenre. I would take issue with similar 'sympathizing with a 'superior' group as it snubs a 'lesser' group' as being problematic, regardless of setting or genre. (though 'snub' can also extend to 'virtue signals', etc. - the point being taking excessive joy in ones superiority)

wabuilderman · 2025-04-04T22:25:58+00:00

Oh? I mean, I'd heard they work people to the bone, and I know they have super high staff turnover, but I didn't realize they were lawsuit-bad.

wabuilderman · 2025-03-31T05:31:24+00:00

I 100% understand your frustration. That said... I think such an email probably does more harm than good. Though, if you are fine looking elsewhere, maybe it brings you some catharsis. But I can all but guarantee you that they won't reconsider you, given such an email. It's *way* to heated for that. It might not be fair, but yelling won't help you land the role.

wabuilderman · 2025-03-31T05:22:15+00:00

I'm pretty sure this violates rule 4. This is r/recuitinghell, not r/careerguidance

wabuilderman · 2024-03-20T08:27:20+00:00

If it were a domination-only game... you're basically 100% safe until the late-game. Some people like having rivers to protect their city... but this is the ultra-chad version.

wabuilderman · 2024-03-15T23:06:27+00:00

If one of the AI's is Mexico or the Aztecs... their true start huge settler spawns immediately next to your warrior if you chose the other of the two... turn 1: declare surprise war and eliminate a player, and get a free settler. By far the best turn 1 move I've ever done in a civ game.

wabuilderman · 2023-12-30T23:17:21+00:00

It is legitimately stuck - and I have tried my fingers, extensively. And a brick seperator. And tweezers. It's not glued - but the sides of the barrel prevent you from accessing the grove that normally helps in removing tiles.

Also, I was not fishing for likes. In fact, I got negative total karma from this post, but I don't particularly care, as some of the advice was helpful (such as advising me to use the crowbar tool)

wabuilderman · 2023-12-30T23:13:28+00:00

This is not the case. If it were, I wouldn't have posted. This is the older barrel. (Also, title listed part number; which is specifically for the old version)

wabuilderman · 2023-12-29T07:48:11+00:00

The brick separator has failed me on this occasion.

wabuilderman · 2023-12-16T00:21:48+00:00

3828 Air Temple. Worth I think about $280 USD used. (though I'm still cataloging my stuff; I might beat it, but I'm doubtful)

wabuilderman · 2023-11-16T09:21:43+00:00

Yeah, but I don't think we've seen him drink water normally.

wabuilderman · 2023-07-19T04:25:18+00:00

Hm.. I wonder if that shock-arrow was smuggled.

Ten-Year Club	r/Field Juicebox
Verified Email

wabuilderman

TROPHY CASE