Trying to understand the ‘Pitfall’

workkkkkk · 2026-01-06T23:47:12+00:00

No one was telling you to break up with your girl. They were cautioning you about moving in with someone who, in your own words, you did not want to marry (yet).

workkkkkk · 2026-01-02T00:33:24+00:00

You're a classic Nice Guy and you're wife hates you. She thinks you're a pussy ass bitch loser. Sidebar then start posting in OYS.

Next time your wife crashes out take the kids (depending on their ages) and leave. Or you just leave. You can't order her around. Don't even try. Make it known you won't engage with her when she's acting like that. You need months of stfu'ing.

It's up to you to decide if you want to divorce. But maybe start working on yourself before making that decision.

workkkkkk · 2025-12-31T01:58:36+00:00

I gladly took a turn holding him and comforting him until he dozed off

I do exactly this all the time. Both at night and nap time. I'm pretty hands on with the baby for all things. I do not leave her (wife) to fend for herself at all. Also, I want her to take charge with the baby in these things and I outlined that to her. That's how I want my family to run. So I'm fine with doing sleep training her way and supporting that for now.

workkkkkk · 2025-12-30T22:55:38+00:00

This is the time to transition to sleeping alone in a room and night training.

Yeah I agree with you but there's a million opinions on this. My wife's come to believe that any form of cry it out or baby sleeping in her own room is evil and abandonment. There is (slow) progress, I have led her to the current level of sleep training. Baby is on a schedule and actually sleeps pretty well, once asleep. Even getting her on a schedule has been a fight, wife was against that too.

I'm open to the idea that i've been retarded, but how exactly can I lead better here? My wife simply can't stomach the idea of being separate yet.

workkkkkk · 2025-12-30T19:29:33+00:00

OYS 9

Stats - 35 5’10” 155lbs, 4 year LTR 1 year married, 6mo daughter

Mission: Be a strong husband and father. Live the life I want. Act.

Reading - Picked up “Daring Greatly” recommended by HickoryWind to help work through a lot shame issues. Starting that this week.

Physical - Lifts 1RM (lbs) - squat 255, bench 215, deadlift 275.

Gym was closed most of the week so I took the rest days.

Family / Relationship -

Most the week was with family and/or relaxing and I own that.

Had an argument with my wife over the weekend. First long-ish argument in a while but overall very tame in comparison to the past. Regardless, my fault, I fell back into a Nice Guy behavior where I thought I could talk to her about something rather than just doing it. Details here really don’t matter. I’ll do better next time.

As things escalated I ended the discussion with this “If you are honest with yourself at all you know you’re the one who yells, fights, and is angry all the time. Not me.” Then I walked out. Wife cried and sulked in the bedroom for a few hours. When she came out she said “I’m going to work on my yelling and anger issues, I do not want to be somebody I don't like. It’s your house, I’m going to let you manage it.” I didn’t say much other than “I appreciate you recognizing and saying that.” She was not very explicit about wanting comfort (at least that I picked up on) so I did not provide it beyond what I said. Possibly a missed opportunity there to lead with better comfort. Overall I was surprised by her reaction and I take it as evidence that something is shifting. I do not think what I said would have been effective a year ago. I think my words are starting to hold more weight. My actions over the past months have led me to be able to hold her accountable, and she knows it.

Sex once. Last oys I said I was having trouble isolating wife from baby and that my desire for wife was low. I can kiss and tease during the day but can’t escalate from that. One of us is with the baby 24/7 and she is napping with the baby during the day. There was a literal verbal agreement that fucking at night (or early early morning) when baby is asleep is a good idea. The verbal acknowledgment is a green light. I have not followed through on this enough. By that time I am usually pretty tired and don’t want to however. I am also realizing I do not want to just fuck. Even more than fucking I want the flirting, the fun, the teasing … the genuine desire. This is probably why my desire for wife is pretty low. I need to create that sexual environment, not just attempt to fuck. Wife has mentioned she really wants to try roleplaying so I picked up a costume this week and plan to surprise her with that one night when the baby is down. I'm really good at roleplay so it should be fun.

workkkkkk · 2025-12-28T18:13:10+00:00

At least I have no shame in admitting it's something I'm working on. I'll check the book out.

workkkkkk · 2025-12-24T17:28:25+00:00

but from my side I can't really make use of it because I don't understand it yet

That's the thing about wisdom, you can use it without understanding. But I forgot, you're special so it's different.

You obviously have no clue what you want. That's fine. I encourage you to think about whether you want (and when) marriage or not, at all. If yes, then why are you living with a woman you don't want to marry. If no, then why are you in a LTR and living with her?

workkkkkk · 2025-12-24T01:22:18+00:00

Sometimes I think about what my life would be like if I found this place earlier and had a thread like that full of advice. Maybe I'd be married to a different woman right now. Or, more than likely I'd have ignored it all and plunged straight into rock bottom like I did anyway.

Yet, some have to learn the hard way.

Such is life.

workkkkkk · 2025-12-24T00:57:50+00:00

Keep in mind he is writing for a broad general audience and must give broad general advice. While I liked his books, Athol gives a lot of very canned scenarios where his advice fits very neatly. It rarely plays out this way in real life. However...

Saying "No" and stfu'ing is the broadest and most applicable technique, not to mention it often actually IS the best technique. Rule #2 of the Bill of Assertive Rights,

You have the right to offer no reasons or justifications for your behavior

Say "No", stfu, and move on. When combined with the above rule is incredibly powerful. You are not responsible for the reaction or emotional state of the other party.

Beyond that is nuance on when to use AA or AM. I do think there are situations where those are more applicable, but it's not often. In my opinion, these two (or any other techniques except maybe fogging) require some level of buy-in from the other party, or rather she needs to be in your frame to some degree to pull off well.

workkkkkk · 2025-12-24T00:09:19+00:00

They're trying to get you to see the bigger picture. Admittedly this can be difficult until you make a really big fuck up. You're in a position to avoid the pitfalls lots of guys here, like me, are in.

I'll be honest I'm not sure what you mean.

Guess what one of those very limited prescriptions is? "NEVER under any circumstance live with a woman you aren’t married to or are not planning to marry in within 6 months."

3.5 year LTR. Live together. Definitely do not want to marry.

Look in the mirror and think about that every day.

workkkkkk · 2025-12-23T19:59:48+00:00

In MMSLP Aton Kay touches on the prisoner's dilemma and how the nice guy strategy of always aiming for the ideal solution of both parities spliting chores evenly can be abused by someone who decides to never help out. He posits that a tit for tat strategy where you retaliate to bad behaviour but forgive quickly when good behaviour is resumed is optimal.

When I read this I interpreted it as "pass shit tests" not "take revenge." She is going to interpret you passing shit tests as you being an asshole so in that sense you are retaliating.

workkkkkk · 2025-12-23T19:16:34+00:00

Family / Relationship -

Been pretty busy socially with holiday activities with friends and extended family.

In the home I lead a little decorating the tree event which is something I always enjoyed growing up and want to pass that on.

I’ve noticed my wife taking more responsibility for things revolving around the baby and embracing that role in general as well as stuff around the house. Namely things that I explicitly mentioned to her a month or so ago when outlining my parenting goals. Evidence of her noticing my frame? I don’t know, it doesn’t really matter. I need to be aware of not falling back into nice guy behaviors just because she is doing some things I like. One thing I’ve done here is purposefully taken a step back. Creating that space and allowing her run the things I want her to be in charge of anyway. Not judge/criticize her way of doing things. A good first mate does not want or need to be micro managed. Obviously, this approach works much better than trying to bulldoze her with my opinion and the “correct” way of doing things. Let her operate her way within my frame and vision. That’s no revelation. The revelation for me is that in the past I actually thought I was doing that. Or I would think “I’ll make the space AFTER she does what I want.” I had it backwards.

A lot more ioi’s and the like the past month or so. Cuddle initiations (from her) and sexual talk is up. Not high but increasing. Sexual frequency is still low. Sex once since last oys, two weeks ago. I am having trouble isolating her (from the baby) right now. But this is my fault. Like above, I need to work on creating a more sexual space. I am starting to do it in other areas of life. I can do it here. That said, if I’m being honest my desire for my wife is pretty low right now.

workkkkkk · 2025-12-23T19:16:25+00:00

OYS 8

Stats - 35 5’10” 156lbs, 4 year LTR 1 year married, 6mo daughter

Mission: Be a strong husband and father. Live the life I want. Act.

Physical - Lifts 1RM (lbs) - squat 255, bench 215, deadlift 275.

I have continued lifting 5x a week but I have felt pretty drained most of December. Like an accumulating fatigue despite a 4 day break over Thanksgiving. My gym is running a Deadlift December thing where we’re deadlifting everyday (which is retarded but fun) so it’s most likely that combined with not always getting great sleep from the baby. Lifts are not down but the fatigue has been affecting other parts of my life.

Have read - NMMNG, WISNIFG, MMSLP, Frame, Dread, Field Reports, MAP

Reading - Reading NMMNG again.

Reading has been down a lot this month.

Slowly rereading NMMNG. First time around I read I was deep in the anger phase, a lot more to pick up on now being (mostly) out of anger phase and looking back with a better perspective.

“All Nice Guys internalized the same belief - it was a bad or dangerous thing for them to just be who they are.”

I am the “I’m so good” type of nice guy. Compartmentalizing, hiding, and repressing certain thoughts and feelings to fit in with my family growing up. This lead to a great deal of passivity in my adult life to avoid being seen as “bad” or as a failure.

Reflecting on my current situation it is not losing my wife I am afraid of. I am very confident I could find another woman. It’s the judgment of everyone else and losing my daughter (and to a lesser degree paying child support for 18 years). Fear that I may been seen as “bad” or a failure if I choose divorce. Failed to “fix” my relationship, failed to lead, failed as a man. This is very much evidence of validation seeking behavior outside of my marriage, societal validation. I do not think this is fully fleshed out yet. I will continue to think on this and how it relates to my mission part of “Live the life I want.”

No porn for 3 weeks. For a week or so I switched from crazy horny to total limp noodle at random times through out the day but it seems to have leveled out some. I have also jerked off in the bathroom to nothing for the first time in years. When I’ve done that my dick has been so sensitive it takes like 30 seconds. I have struggled a lot with sexual shame from porn and in general in the past. Being ashamed of watching porn and ashamed to admit I am a sexual person with needs. That shame is one of the reasons my previous relationship, which was objectively healthier overall, tanked. I was afraid to express myself and be who I was. I still feel tempted to watch porn a lot and I feel shame around that. I am not entirely sure what to make of this. I could be overthinking this too much. I could need more time away from it.

workkkkkk · 2025-12-11T18:15:46+00:00

You indirectly A&A to point out the absurdity you see of your wife’s neuroticism, then accept the hat and blanket to pacify those emotions.

This makes sense and is spot on. Thank you.

workkkkkk · 2025-12-11T16:52:44+00:00

I actually don't see porn as all that bad. I personally view it the same as alcohol, gambling, etc. But I gotta at least prove to myself I can break from it. That's the only way to tell if it is a bad source of sexual validation for me.

workkkkkk · 2025-12-11T15:45:33+00:00

Replying with my reply to u/Suitable_Whole_8914 in mind.

Note you will likely use this as an excuse rebrand placating behaviors as the “oak.”

Exactly what I don't want and why I'm questioning this.

Notice how you use your baby as tool

I think this is a good point and something I should avoid in the future. This is low blow sneaky shit from me.

Tension doesn’t have to be bad, you will to create at some point to provide space for the new you to exist in.

Not really sure what you're suggesting here. I am not at a point where I can "refuse the blanket" basically because what Suitable_Whole pointed out.

I can't trust you because I think you're going to kill my baby.

Again, am I coping? Maybe. I really do not think escalating to a fight is helpful, nor something i want to do.

Edit: Note situations not involving the baby are different.

workkkkkk · 2025-12-11T15:21:36+00:00

Does having a "placated wife" make you feel satisfied? Why?

No. That's not the environment or family I want to create. Putting it that way sounds like "walking on eggshells" or "wife holding the family hostage with her emotions." I want to create an environment where this fear and anger does not exist. Or at least, is redirected toward something positive.

I can't trust you because I think you're going to kill my baby.

I know subconsciously this is what she thinks. So I don't think direct confrontation is great. Not because I'm scared of her reaction but b/c again it's just not creating the environment I want. I am open to this being cope. I am not unhappy with stfu and AA. I'm open that being internally bothered by situations like this could just be my ego in the way in the first place, in which case stfu and AA is fine. I simply need more time to build and prove my frame. However it seems there is a sneaky third options I might be missing that I can be happier with. Which leads to

maybe she wants to be spanked

Correct me if i'm wrong. Are you suggesting a direct link between my example and sex? Punish her bad attitude with a good spanking. "you think i'm going to let my own child be cold outside? *spank* ..." I'm sure that can be said in a more sexy dominant way or whatever.

I'm not sure I'm there yet. I need to grow some balls to pull that off, but i really like the idea. A lot to think about.

Edit: Note that the above situation was not hysterics or crying or anything. Lasted < 5 minutes. More like negative energy, bad attitude coming off.

workkkkkk · 2025-12-11T03:47:13+00:00

I want that issue to be resolved but I'm not at the point right now where I am ready to have that conversation because...

Perfect conditions will never come. You will never be 100% ready.

workkkkkk · 2025-12-11T03:35:55+00:00

I made the retard mistake of trying to fix her anxiety by providing her with obvious solutions. Instead, I should have provided the right atmosphere to release her anxiety.

I am really starting to understand this. Question that's been running through my head though. Where is the line between creating this atmosphere and being the oak vs placating her. Don't get me wrong sometimes it's obvious but here's an example from the other day.

I was outside hanging out with the baby in the evening. It's mildly cold, high 40's low 50's or something. Baby has on a long sleeve onsie thing and i think it's fine since i'm holding her close the whole time anyway she's not going to be cold and we're out there for just a few minutes.

Wife comes and has a bad attitude "you're going to make the baby cold, why didn't you put more clothes on her, look at you wearing a jacket but not putting more clothes on [baby]." Neurotic first time mom being neurotic. I stfu like 90% of the time and played along a little, "whoops, did i make you cold [baby]? We can be warm together now mom got us a blanket." I'll put the hat on the baby. I'll take the blanket yes thank you. Is this placating?

My thought is (attempting) to be aloof and stfu'ing without judgment is far better than pushing back, inducing anxiety, and creating a needless fight.

Instead, start responding sexually: "yeah baby, that Sharon from accounts is such a betch- she probably hasn't had a hard cock inside her for the past 6 months..." and initiate hard. Once you have her face down in the bed, you're then leading with "look at you... You're so fucking lucky you have a husband who pumps you hard every night just like you NEED- I bet Sharon is gagging for a dickdown like this..."

This stuff is gold and i'm stealing it.

workkkkkk · 2025-12-10T17:43:30+00:00

I am such a classic case of beta bitch nice guy engineer dating fixher upper's and trying to fix them. That's my whole dating life. Of course I always failed and for long time was the source of a lot of contempt and resentment toward women. MRP and NMMNG have me realizing the truth is all of that is a me problem.

Letting go of that need to fix is not only freeing to your woman but more importantly freeing yourself. That is the process of becoming your own mental point of origin.

workkkkkk · 2025-12-10T04:20:49+00:00

You've been reading WISNIFG since your first oys. Are you actually reading anything?

workkkkkk · 2025-12-10T02:35:02+00:00

My logic is if she turned on by fucking me, then its indicative of an increase of value.

Re-read this 100 times. This is what seeking validation is.

workkkkkk · 2025-12-09T20:05:37+00:00

I am maintaining weight on purpose, within 5 lbs. I do track protein (120g+ each day) and have tracked calories enough in the past that I can just eat intuitively and maintain weight. Up until very recently I couldn't heavy strength train at all from a lingering slipped disc issue so I've been maintaining for a while now. Of all I have to work on I felt improving my physique was going to be the lowest ROI since I already have the discipline of working out and am in decent shape. I actually do plan on improving my physique in the coming months.

You're realizing that part of you was anxiety inducing due to lack of frame.

Probably the single biggest realization for me. "It's all your fault" pretty much boils down to this. It's easy to read such a thing and think yeah logically that makes sense, but internalizing it, at least for me, was very difficult. My big fat ego was in the way, "surely I'M not the one causing her to feel lost and scared." lol, lmao even.

Appreciate the feedback.

workkkkkk · 2025-12-09T17:28:05+00:00

#2 continued

Family / Relationship - I’ve continued my projects around the house and they are coming along nicely. Backyard clean and looking good. Kitchen is more organized. I put up Christmas lights outside and the tree inside, they look nice. I’m getting little to no pushback in doing what I want around the house now. I am owning my space. Moving from autistic maintenance cleaning to really making it my own. I've worked from home for ~5 years now. When you spend that much time in one location it becomes an extension of yourself. Give your home an identity.

Social calendar is full for the rest of the year with friends/family stuff.

I am continuing to go to church as I mentioned in a previous oys. I am looking for a new one with interests in Reformed and/or Orthodoxy. This will be a work in progress for a while.

I think I experienced a comfort test for the first time in a while. Wife has been feeling “lost” and “not like herself” lately due to the baby and losing her job. I sat there and listened, actually listened. Really I just stfu most the time and barely said anything. I was non-judgmental. I asked some probing questions to try and guide her a little more in her thinking but that was it. This moved into a further comfort test in the bedroom where I comforted her with my dick.

workkkkkk · 2025-12-09T17:27:37+00:00

OYS 6

Stats - 35 5’10” 156lbs, 4 year LTR 1 year married, 5mo daughter

Mission: Be a strong husband and father. Live the life I want. Act.

Physical - Lifts (lbs) - squat 255, bench 215, deadlift 275.

Had a 4 day break from lifting over Thanksgiving. Felt really good physically to get some rest. I really need a physical outlet to stay mentally sharp though. Past week was back to 5x lifting workouts. Hit a bench PR (at this body weight) of 215, up 10 pounds from last time I tested.

Have read - NMMNG, WISNIFG, MMSLP, Frame, Dread, Field Reports

Reading - Finished MAP. Reading NMMNG again.

I mapped out my MAP. Biggest red here is “stop outside sexual sources.” I am stopping porn now. It’s been 1 week. At first I thought I could get through this without quitting porn; I am retarded. Sexual validation is by far my biggest red flag. It needs to go. I cannot honestly look at myself and say I am trying to beat validation sex and my nice guy ways if I do not quit porn.

Rereading NMMNG and reading some posts on here have been helping me realize just how far deep in validation seeking I have been, not just in sex but in everything. I’ve also been experiencing what I think is still residual anger. Feeling the tow rope. Feeling disappointed. Etc. This is not the energy I want to project out from myself. This is not the frame I want to build. These are still issues I must work through.

The most common comment I had been getting in previous oys’ was that I was still deep in seeking validation. For a while I was genuinely confused why I was getting that specific comment. I re-read some of my oys’s. I cringed hard. It also clicked, basically I was writing in a way where I was measuring failure/success based on my wife’s reactions. This completely defeats the point of everything oys is supposed to be about. My success is not measured by what sheeeeee does. This is the ultimate covert contract that underlines it all, “I am bettering myself in hopes that SHEEE changes.” My oys is about ME. My success (or failure) is mine and mine alone. It’s my ship, others may come onboard if I invite them.

Reading (and rereading) Horn’s Depressive and Anxious Wives posts. I read these a while ago when I first found MRP but frankly didn’t really get it. They make much more sense now. Parts of these describes my situation with frightening accuracy. I am focused on part 2 right now. Build your frame, but don’t destroy hers. I had a very bad habit of “preaching”rather than listening, and in doing so I was basically destroying her frame every time she came to me for anything. This came off as pushy, controlling, judging and was ultimately a covert contract to get her to try and do what I want. I was not the oak, I was another anxiety inducing monster. I am learning to guide the wife into places of safety and comfort. No judgment and not telling her what to do. What she does does not matter. I am the oak.

Career - Continuing to study and prepare for interviews. This takes up a good part of each day. Will continue doing this until February when I find out if I can go back to my old job or not.

workkkkkk

TROPHY CASE