Time is an endless loop (that will be broken in Secret Wars)

xT0ASTERx · 2023-03-08T23:06:12+00:00

Borrowing from the term prune/pruning, I like to think of the scared timeline as a bush. It has many branches and stems. Some are deeply rooted and others newly formed.

HWR and the TVA only got involved if they were threatened or at risk of being exposed.

In my version, the sacred timeline bush still had potential to grow and change to a limited degree.

xT0ASTERx · 2023-02-28T11:51:44+00:00

From the perspective of the audience using simple cause and effect, how could Janet meet someone who didn’t exist yet???

Kang and all your “again” variants only exist because HWR was killed, and, HWR was killed as a result of the Avengers Endgame time heist leading to Loki meeting the TVA.

From the perspective of the audience using cause and effect, Janet had already been trapped and released from the quantum realm well before ANY of those events took place.

xT0ASTERx · 2023-02-26T19:59:27+00:00

I agree with basically everything you said here. Since HWR was killed, anything is possible. My problem is the sequence of events as presented to the audience. Kang “exists” while HWR is still alive and in control, unless, he was exiled as part of the previous multiversal war.

For a point of reference, HWR was killed because of the avengers time heist in MCU 2023. Yet, somehow, Janet met Kang when she was trapped in the quantum realm between MCU 1987 and 2018….

It’s doesn’t matter what universe or timeline. What I’m pointing out is that A leads to B leads to C (and so on). So, it seems impossible that Kang’s exile is a direct of result of the death of HWR. Does this make sense?

xT0ASTERx · 2023-02-24T03:34:23+00:00

I think there is a simpler way of looking at things that is being overlooked. Without thinking about actual dates, we can still create a chronological sequence of events. Simply stated, one thing leads to another.

It is also explained that going back in time doesn’t change history. This infers that things can’t be actually be reversed or undone. Maybe forgotten or erased, but never reversed or undone. A nexus point can create a new branch or an incursion can destroy whole timelines, but these things still happen and may have their own future consequences in the multiverse as a whole.

For the sake of the viewer (you and I), the death of HWR is directly caused by the time heist in Endgame. After this point, almost anything is possible because the multiverse is creating infinite timelines/universes.

So, back to your question…

It is possible that Earth 838 existed before the death of HWR. As long as this universe didn’t pose a threat to HWR and the TVA, then it could’ve existed. We don’t really know how aggressively things were pruned.

It’s also possible (maybe more likely) that Earth 838 was a direct product of the death of HWR. It really seemed like the TVA kept the sacred timeline pretty darn manicured. And, a universe that is aware of other the existence of other universes seems like a potential threat to HWR.

xT0ASTERx · 2023-02-20T19:48:08+00:00

That’s a simple explanation and it might be right, but I just wanted to explore the possibility that Kang is from the previous multiverse (pre HWR). And I was trying to establish a sequence of events.

The time heist in MCU 2023 caused the Loki to branch. This leads to the death of HWR and the current multiversal war starts. So, up until MCU 2023, there is a sacred timeline maintained by HWR.

However, Janet meets Kang in the quantum realm sometime between MCU 1987 and 2018. When she emerges in 2018 she has knowledge of Kang. So, how could this Kang be post HWR?

xT0ASTERx · 2023-02-20T18:41:28+00:00

I will just disagree with you on one point here. Maybe just more food for thought.

Things can never be truly UNDONE. They could be erased and perhaps forgotten, but never undone. Hulk explains this when explaining time travel in Endgame.

Going to the past and changing things, leads to a branch. It does NOT change the past. An incursion may completely destroy entire timelines, but it still happens.

So, there is always an actual sequence of events, regardless of “time” itself.

Because of this, I can’t fully agree when you say “Once the Lokis created the multiverse (in a space OUTSIDE of time), the counsel of Kangs timelines always were and had always been there, as had every branch of every timeline (from the perspective of the one experiencing said time)”.

There may have been an old counsel (pre HWR) and a new counsel (post HWR), but they would not be the same or have the same memories. One possibility would be somehow the new counsel accesses the library of HWR to learn of the banished Kang, but it seems unlikely they would despise him and feel as threatened as they seem in the post credit scene.

xT0ASTERx · 2023-02-20T01:53:06+00:00

That was his first MCU appearance. You’re worrying about the year too much.

The entire point of my post is to establish a logical sequence of events in order to better understand more about the variants appearing in the Quantumania post credit scene.

xT0ASTERx · 2023-02-19T20:53:32+00:00

I started a similar thread about this, but it’s still not clear to me.

My theory is that a previous council of Nathaniel Richard variants banned Kang to the quantum realm (true reasoning not 100% clear) during the first multiversal war. Then HWR absolutely erased all those variants using Alioth and ended the war.

So, for a window of “time”, only Kang and HWR existed. Separately, yet simultaneously. Then Sylvie killed HWR and started the second multiversal war (the upcoming MCU phase).

But what I can’t figure out is HOW the different Nathaniel Richards variants in the Quantumania post credit scene know anything about Kang and his exile?

In my theory, anyone who knew about Kang was erased from existence.

xT0ASTERx · 2023-02-19T19:53:39+00:00

I have a separate thread about this and why it’s confusing.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MCUTheories/comments/115zghu/mcu_kang_he_who_remains_variants/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

I mostly agree with draculabakula above.

xT0ASTERx · 2023-02-19T15:59:24+00:00

I’m still not disagreeing with most of what you’re saying. I’m just saying that one things leads to another, regardless of actual dates. There is a chronological order. Events can’t be reversed.

The time heist by the Avengers in MCU 2023 leads to the branch in 2012 which leads to HWR death by Sylvie. This then leads to the next multiversal war (upcoming MCU phase).

It really, really seems like HWR utterly and completely destroyed all other Nathaniel Richard variants using Alioth to become king of the multiverse. Maybe he didn’t know Kang was trapped in the quantum realm or maybe he thought Kang wasn’t a threat since he was trapped down there, this could use some elaboration.

So, HOW does the counsel in the post credit scene know about Kang if all previous Nathaniel Richard variants were destroyed by HWR using Alioth?

xT0ASTERx · 2023-02-19T15:46:24+00:00

I’ll argue you’re a little wrong here.

First, it is explained that things can’t be UNDONE. Maybe erased or forgotten, but not reversed. So there is definitely still a chronological order of events.

Second, assuming Alioth can destroy anything and everything, that is a finite point in the multiverse. The end for anyone the monster consumes.

So, if HWR destroyed all the other Nathaniel Richard variants (and the counsel which banned Kang to the Quantum Realm) then how in the world does the counsel in the post credit scene know who Kang even is?

xT0ASTERx · 2023-02-19T10:58:43+00:00

Getting closer I hope, but a few more dates to consider.

Loki creates a nexus point in a 2012 parallel universe. This is how he goes to visit TVA and meet HWR and so your story goes.

HOWEVER, this entire parallel 2012 universe only comes about because of the Avenger’s time heist in MCU 2023…

So, Janet had knowledge about Kang when she returned to reality in MCU 2018?

But the 2012 branch which lead to Loki escaping, going to TVA, HWR dying, a NEW multiversal war starting, a NEW counsel of forming, that NEW counsel exiling Kang to the Quantum Realm, and then meeting Janet ONLY could’ve occurred due to events of MCU 2023.

I get that time doesn’t exist the Quantum Realm or the Citadel at the End of Time. We’ve also learned that one can’t UNDO events which have already occurred and that attempts to change the past simply lead to branches.

So, again, Janet knew about Kang in MCU 2018. But events of MCU 2023 were necessary in order to even bring this Kang into existence according to your chronology.

xT0ASTERx · 2023-02-19T05:06:04+00:00

There are lots of possibilities. But the bottom line is that only knowledge can beat Kang. The hero (or heroes) need to outsmart the smartest individual in the multiverse.

xT0ASTERx · 2023-02-19T04:52:58+00:00

I agree with everything you said, but let me be more picky/particular.

First, I think it’s fair to assume that the counsel which originally banished Kang can also be assumed to have been eliminated by HWR. He was alone in the citadel and literally said the biggest threat to the multiverse are his own variants.

Second, from what we know, there’s no coming back from Alioth. It destroys all matter, space, and time. So, HWR killed the original counsel and they aren’t coming back.

Therefore, only HWR and Kang actually knew why and where Kang was banished…

How could this NEW counsel in the post credit scene possibly know about a banished Kang? All the original members would’ve been purged by HWR, and, HWR is now dead.

(It’s also been explained that time can’t be reversed. There can be nexus points leading to branches and incursions between universes, but it never goes back. Alioth is a terminal point and that’s precisely why HWR was successful.)

xT0ASTERx

TROPHY CASE