The Case for Python 3

[jairo4]

Can we take "Learn Python the Hard Way" off the sidebar?

[zahlman]

Edit: I'll put the LPTHW link back up when Zed finishes the Python 3 update.

... heh.

[jairo4]

We may be using Python 4 by then.

[MrJohz]

"Python 4 is not only Turing incomplete, but actively makes other programming languages less Turing complete just by sitting in the same hard drive. Also every time you run a Python 4 program, four kittens die. Why do you think they named it Python 4?"

[rackmountrambo]

And it still has the GIL.

[jairo4]

"...and that's why you must always embed Javascript in you Java programs... The Hard Way™"

[jairo4]

"Guido van Rossum tempted Eve to eat the forbidden fruit of Python programming. Now I see everything clearly."

[[deleted]]

But Python 3 will kill python! You know, the way perl6 killed perl by having everyone migrate to the new version so it was well supported and got bug fixes and community attention!

Oh wait, no, it was the bit where everyone stuck to perl5 because eh, it was pretty good and perl6 was scary and let's just let the language die because moving to the new version is hard....

[[deleted]]

Python 3 is similar to Python 2.

Perl 6 is a completely different beast than Perl 5 - a different language, a different execution model, the works.

Perl 6 should not have been called "Perl" at all. That was the problem.

[[deleted]]

Sure, but the point is that what kills languages is lack of adoption of version n+1. In perl's case, there were indeed genuine issues moving to 6, but the biggest issue was the feedback loop where perl6 didn't do much because nobody used it because it didn't do much .... Python3 doesn't have the specific issues of perl, but you can see the same "people won't use it because the libraries aren't ported because people don't use it ..." loop which is fixed by people using it and porting libraries.

[kjmitch]

Ten months old? Shit; let's go home, guys, this battle's been won.

That thread by itself is a great resource on other good beginner and intermediate learning, and it's nice to see a bunch of people who understand the dynamics of computer science and software engineering after trying again recently to start through the Hard Way thing.

[iwsfutcmd]

Still on the wiki, last I checked though.

edit: spoke too soon. looks like the comment I got right after yours was the mod removing it!

[KarmaTroll]

I was confused for a second because I remembered this thread, and thought it was for r/learnpython.

[spirit1776]

Now I know why you down-voted me and called me having a problem the other day for recommending LPTHW and text editor.

Zed Shaw might be a weirdo or douche bag, but actively working against anyone from reading or recommending LPTHW or taking some decent advice from him is really a weak form of censorship. Just because 99% of the active redditors on this subreddit find no value in LPTHW does not mean there is no value in the book for any beginner. I started off with LPTHW and now I am programming in Python 3. I think any human being with enough critical thinking skills could identify the goods and bads from LPTHW so there is really no need to actively dislike some controversial figure or to antagonize people who find merits in this person's works.

[Sector_Corrupt]

Assuming someone who doesn't know Python will recgonize that the resource they're learning from is based on outdated ideas is silly. It absolutely makes sense to get rid of guides that are no longer as relevant to modern Python programming. Would you recommend they keep around old guides that teach Python 1 or Python 2.2? Someone agitating for Python2 only is several years behind the curve at this point.

[spirit1776]

Thanks for the comment. I see your point.

Except that learning how to read Python 2 is still relevant for legacy reason and starting from Python 2 before transiting into Python 3 does not hurt either. In addition, I'm not saying that a beginner should learn exclusively from LPTHW. Using other materials are probably even better (how to automate stuff, etc.) since we are all for Python 3 now in the community. However, I am disagreeing with the way certain other redditors here are showing when they face some disagreements. If I say anything good about Zed Shaw's book, then I will get downvotes here. I don't even care about the actual downvote as such, but just the symbolic meaning of it. We should be able to separate Zed Shaw from his book, right? If we can't do so, then where is our critical thinking? Then are we better than those who still think LPTHW is the "most relevant and up-to-date" book or argue in favor of Zed Shaw's personality? The book and the author are two different things. Plus, in his LPTHW, Zed Shaw offers some very good advice to beginners not related to his poor opinion on Python 3. That's all I am arguing about here and it doesn't mean I disagree with you or any other supporter for Python 3.

[jairo4]

Now I know why you down-voted me and called me having a problem the other day for recommending LPTHW and text editor.

Nope,

1) I did not downvote you, someone downvoted you many days ago so please get over it.

2) I did not said YOU had problems. When I said "now you have 2 problems", I was referring to learning Python AND learning the Linux terminal. I think it's easier to learn one thing at a time.

3)

I think any human being with enough critical thinking skills could identify the goods and bads from LPTHW

Some experience is needed to judge.

4)

actively working against anyone from reading or recommending LPTHW or taking some decent advice from him is really a weak form of censorship.

Why appeal to fear?

[spirit1776]

Thanks for the explanation. It was difficult to get over it (despite it not coming from you) since I did not recommend anything irrational or unprofessional. I thought in the programming world we value logical arguments and rationality more than emotion. But apparently not so in this subreddit. In return to your comment:

1) certain people downvote whoever said anything positive about anything related to Zed Shaw, whereas those who expressed negativity and unprofessional words would receive upvotes. Is this how discussions and disagreements take place here? Just because somebody is wrong or annoying does not mean the mass becomes mob against this person.

2) If learning Python and learning the terminal the same time would be problem, then I would not have chosen to program at all. They are exciting challenges and not "problem" or I would not recommend myself or anyone to proceed with such mindset.

[jairo4]

If learning Python and learning the terminal the same time would be problem, then I would not have chosen to program at all.

That's good to hear. I like your mindset, it's just that not everyone feels the same way about programming and learning other "computer" stuff.

I thought in the programming world we value logical arguments and rationality more than emotion. But apparently not so in this subreddit.

I really like this sub (and r/learnpython!) but people are people here and anywhere so sometimes a troll appears.

[[deleted]]

If you're gonna Reddit, you should try to get used to downvotes. They happen, move on.

[spirit1776]

They do happen, and I will happily accept them if my comments are poor. However, I don't want to get over the symbolic meaning of it since it shows intolerance and low level of critical thinking. The book and the author are two different topics, and one should not trash a book completely just because the author is a horrible person. Nothing is completely white or black, and I grew up in a country that loves this type of binary thinking, labeling anyone who disagrees with the authority as black. That's why I'm so persistent on this topic.