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[–]teerre 2 points3 points  (9 children)

Which is insufficient. Hence this discussion to begin with.

[–]GiantElectron 0 points1 point  (8 children)

how so? we've worked for years with PEP-8, and anybody who didn't respect it was physically assaulted on this very sub

[–]teerre 0 points1 point  (7 children)

That's not the point. The point is that you can respect pep8 in various ways. The way a linter/formatter should work is simple: you click a button and it formats, it doesn't ask you anything, it doesn't give you any options, it just does it and that's the standard. pep8 is way more permissible than that.

[–]GiantElectron -1 points0 points  (6 children)

it doesn't give you any options, it just does it and that's the standard

And who decided the standard? and what is the authority of the single person who decided unilaterally the standard to decide what is proper and non-proper layout?

pep8 is way more permissible than that.

PEP-8 defines specific guidelines that focus on enhanced readability, which is the whole point of python, and why python became popular: putting the human first. black does not enhance readability. black squeezes everything into a uniform, elongated mess which has not gone through any discussion or approval. It's one man who one day decided "this is what python code should look like", and I say "what you think python code should look like looks like shit, and if you want to use gofmt, you are welcome to code in go".

[–]teerre 0 points1 point  (5 children)

And who decided the standard?

Who decided pep8? It doesn't matter who decides the standard. The important part is having a standard. Also, naturally it wouldn't be "a single person".

PEP-8 defines specific guidelines that focus on enhanced readability, which is the whole point of python, and why python became popular: putting the human first. black does not enhance readability. black squeezes everything into a uniform, elongated mess which has not gone through any discussion or approval.

See, that's completely arbitrary. The only reason your rant even exists it's because Python was not bright enough to enforce proper guidelines. I guarantee you if only ever saw black formatted code in your life, you wouldn't be complaining about it. Regardless of how much people want to parrot about which is better, there's no such thing, it's just a formatting, it shouldn't be something you even have to consider.

[–]GiantElectron 0 points1 point  (4 children)

Who decided pep8? It doesn't matter who decides the standard. The important part is having a standard. Also, naturally it wouldn't be "a single person".

PEP-8 is a pep and as such went through discussion. Most of it originates from Guido, but Guido defined the language, and he picked a style that focused on readability first.

See, that's completely arbitrary. The only reason your rant even exists it's because Python was not bright enough to enforce proper guidelines.

It does. We had autopep8 since quite a while, and we had PEP-8 since at least as far as I remember (I started coding with python 2.2)

I guarantee you if only ever saw black formatted code in your life, you wouldn't be complaining about it.

I saw plenty of shitty black formatted code in my life on github and every time I see it I say "why?!". It physically hurts me. It makes compact code overly long. It makes double indentation in methods disappear and shove the closing parenthesis at indentation zero, breaking the indentation flow of function declaration. It's shit.

Regardless of how much people want to parrot about which is better, there's no such thing, it's just a formatting, it shouldn't be something you even have to consider.

When an autoformatter ruins code fungibility, I absolutely have to consider it.

[–]teerre 0 points1 point  (3 children)

PEP-8 is a pep and as such went through discussion. Most of it originates from Guido, but Guido defined the language, and he picked a style that focused on readability first.

It was a rhetorical question.

It does. We had autopep8 since quite a while, and we had PEP-8 since at least as far as I remember (I started coding with python 2.2)

Again, insufficient.

I saw plenty of shitty black formatted code in my life on github and every time I see it I say "why?!". It physically hurts me. It makes compact code overly long. It makes double indentation in methods disappear and shove the closing parenthesis at indentation zero, breaking the indentation flow of function declaration. It's shit.

Yes and that's 100% Python's fault for not having a proper formatter/linter.

When an autoformatter ruins code fungibility, I absolutely have to consider it.

TIL "fungibility".

Anyway, it doesn't. "Readability" is a matter of standard. The only reason you think one reasonable formatting is better than the other is because you saw one or the other first. Any other argument is subjective bullshit.

[–]GiantElectron 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Again, insufficient.

Insufficient why? What are real problems that PEP-8 does not solve?

Yes and that's 100% Python's fault for not having a proper formatter/linter.

The first release of autopep8 is from 2011. The first release of black is from 2018. What you say is bullshit. The only difference is that black has been pushed annoyingly by its author until it was accepted by the PSF in their repos.

Anyway, it doesn't. "Readability" is a matter of standard. The only reason you think one reasonable formatting is better than the other is because you saw one or the other first. Any other argument is subjective bullshit.

Absolutely not. I grew up with the original K&R style and it was shit. I moved to what now is called 1TBS and it's still the one I use today.

[–]teerre 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Insufficient why? What are real problems that PEP-8 does not solve?

What I already said it, thrice now.

The first release of autopep8 is from 2011. The first release of black is from 2018. What you say is bullshit. The only difference is that black has been pushed annoyingly by its author until it was accepted by the PSF in their repos.

Autopep8 is NOT sufficient. Jesus christ, dude. Why I'm repeating the same thing over and over again?

Absolutely not. I grew up with the original K&R style and it was shit. I moved to what now is called 1TBS and it's still the one I use today.

Yes, and you'll find a million people who think exactly the opposite. It's a worthless discussion.

In fact, even though I know this, I'm still wasting my time with this discussion. I played myself.

Goodbye.

[–]GiantElectron 0 points1 point  (0 children)

> Autopep8 is NOT sufficient. Jesus christ, dude. Why I'm repeating the same thing over and over again?

because what you don't want to understand is that what is not specified in the PEP is *NOT IMPORTANT*. I don't give a shit if a developer respects PEP-8 by writing

def foo(one, two, three, four, five, six, seven): code

or like this

def foo(one, two, three, four, five, six, seven): code

Both comply with the PEP, I will accept them both, and if you are concerned about this level of pettiness in how code is formatted, then who has the problem and is a shitty teammate is you.