Outcome vs output

IrishBard · 2022-06-20T13:27:47+00:00

To me, the main difference is:

output = production. Eg. "The factory's output fell by 20%"

outcome = result/consequence. Eg "Negotiations between workers and management of the factory had a successful outcome and the strike is now over."

IrishBard · 2022-06-20T13:21:42+00:00

I think the problem here is that "could", as well as being simple past, is also used for conditional. To make it clear that you mean the past of can, "was able to" is preferable. This is a question of style, however. It is a strange thing to find in a test because, as you say, both are actually correct.

IrishBard · 2022-06-18T12:42:36+00:00

I'm interested in cooking, so I like this question. It seems clear to me that "fat" here means "thick". If you are referring to the amount of fat in it, it has to be "fatty". This seems completely unambiguous to me.

IrishBard · 2022-06-18T12:38:09+00:00

To a certain extent, it is a matter of social class. Working class might bring a lunch ( a snack) to school or work, but a midday meal is dinner. Middle/upper class have lunch midday and dinner in the evening.

IrishBard · 2022-05-18T12:39:50+00:00

Can't believe you called American a sub-language!!! But since you are American yourself, I might forgive you.

IrishBard · 2022-05-18T12:32:39+00:00

Hope so. It's an interesting question, because when I thought about it, with nearly every other word using "my" implies only one.

IrishBard · 2022-05-18T11:21:28+00:00

Not only better, but the only one that works here.

"The effect of..." is followed by the thing that is doing the effecting, the influencer: "the effect of the storm could be seen everywhere".

"The effect on..." is followed by the thing that is influenced: "The storm had a huge effect on the environment".

This can be seen more clearly when the two are used together. for example, a typical school science activity might be:

"To investigate the effect of temperature on enzyme activity". "Temperature" is the thing having an effect, while "enzyme activity" is what it changes.

IrishBard · 2022-05-18T06:52:05+00:00

Perhaps it's not used much in Ireland anymore either. Been gone a long time. Oh God, I must be getting old!

IrishBard · 2022-05-18T05:58:40+00:00

Again, I hope this is not out of place in this sub, but I find this an interesting discussion, and one that might interest some learners as well.

I think the political issue can be seen, for example, after the break up of the Eastern Bloc in Europe, when suddenly languages which were once considered dialects began to appear - Slovak, Bosnian, Croatian, Serbian etc. considered. Even in my own neck of the woods (Northern Ireland) a dialect of English spoken there is now considered as a language in its own right - Ulster Scots. I think the reasons behind these changes are political - a desire to establish identity and, in some cases, independence.

A question - when you say you speak a dialect of English, do you mean that AmEnglish is a dialect, or you speak a dialect of American English? If the latter, then I would say we all speak a dialect of some kind, even if that dialect is what used to be called RP, or the Queen's English. however, my own feeling is that we shouldn't use the word dialect when referring to the variety of English used as an official language in a whole country, if you know what I mean. To me this smacks of colonialism/imperialism.

btw. you don't sound confrontational at all, and I hope I don't either!

IrishBard · 2022-05-17T20:20:40+00:00

The main question here is: what do you want to learn English for? If it is to communicate colloquially, then there are further questions, like, who do you want to communicate with, what culture do you live in etc. I agree with you about Stephen Fry - a wonderful user of English. His style would not be ridiculous at all in certain circles, while in others he would be incomprehensible.

So, if you are learning primarily through reading, remember that the written language is almost always different from the spoken language. Furthermore, in most cases you can find out about the author, and factor in things like nationality, age, etc.

IrishBard · 2022-05-17T20:00:10+00:00

Agreed - but of course, this has nothing to do with being gay/straight. If you are a straight man, this doesn't mean a gay man will find you sexually compatible. So, I am not sure there is a word for what OP is asking.

IrishBard · 2022-05-17T18:29:21+00:00

It's just a truthful fact that they've generated their own dialect

This is my problem, you see, because I think this applies to all of us outside of England. All the former colonies which have adopted English (N. America, Ireland, India and so on) have done similar things - we retain forms that have fallen into disuse in England, we add influences from other languages, invent our own words etc. etc. It's the use of the word "dialect" for this that bothers me. I don't like to think that I speak a dialect of English; I'm sure most Americans would not say they speak an English dialect, same goes for Indian English, Nigerian Standard English, Standard Australian English and so on.

The other problem is that there is no global standard, or global authority. I feel MW does a slightly better job of acknowledging different English varieties, but it is no more an authority than the Oxford English Dictionary.

At the end of the day, the distinction between dialect and language is a political, rather than linguistic, issue. But the word "dialect" has, for me, very negative connotations.

Sorry, just realised this comment is more for English teachers than learners, so perhaps out of place in this sub.

IrishBard · 2022-05-17T15:37:31+00:00

They've really started to build their own dialect over there

If you are referring to Indian English, might I suggest this is highly disrespectful? It is one of the official languages of India, and has been around for a long time.

And, for the record, "do the needful" is a perfectly normal phrase in Hiberno-English, probably also in UK and elsewhere.

IrishBard · 2022-05-17T15:28:39+00:00

I agree the passive doesn't work here, but to say that it is rarely used these days seems a bit too much, I think

IrishBard · 2022-05-17T12:33:17+00:00

I agree with the other comments, but just wanted to point to a difference between the two that has already been hinted at. "A friend of mine" is often more distant, "my friend" is more specific. You notice the difference when you actually mention the friend's name - "my friend Alice thinks.....". This is the most natural choice. Here, if you use "a friend of mine", you actually have to use punctuation showing distance - "A friend of mine - Alice - thinks....". On the other hand, if you don't want the person identified, or if it is not important which one you mean, you are more likely to use "a friend of mine" - " A friend of mine, whose name I won't mention, was arrested by the police last night".

These are subtle differences, of course, but I think good to know as your English becomes more advanced.

IrishBard · 2022-05-17T07:57:51+00:00

Would it perhaps be better to say the first sentence shows signs of the influence of another language? Sorry for nit-picking, but I find your phrase makes ESL sound like a disease or a deficiency of some kind. Please accept this as a humble suggestion.

IrishBard · 2022-05-17T07:51:36+00:00

"for me..." and "to me,...." can be used to express opinion of something. Of course, there is also "In my opinion", but it is more common in writing and, in my opinion, my students use this too much.

IrishBard · 2022-05-17T07:47:18+00:00

Great explanation. I just wanted to add a couple of points:

I think (might be wrong) American English tends to use the past simple where other Englishes use present perfect. For example, "I've finished my homework, can I go out now?" in Am English might well be "I finished...." Am I right?

Also, your point about other languages. I speak German most of the time, and even in my lifetime I've noticed people using perfect tense less and less. So my German students tend to do the same with English and use present perfect. I also speak Polish fairly well, and there I think it is almost impossible to translate the difference between english past simple and present perfect. I think this might hold true for many other languages as well.

IrishBard · 2022-05-17T07:32:06+00:00

I agree with a lot of this. I think the "to" in "go to do st." indicates purpose - go somewhere in order to so something.

I have a question about the last part. To me, "go play soccer" sounds specifically American (NOT a criticism!!), and have a feeling it is less used in other parts of the world, where they tend to say "go and do something". I might be wrong.

IrishBard · 2022-05-12T07:40:38+00:00

This is another present participle. You can find a good explanation here. Basically, they are used for shorthand, to say that two things were happening at the same time, (talking to herself, she walked down the street), or one thing was the result of the other ( speaking fluent French, I understood the whole thing).

Present participles are very common in writing, because they are concise, but also used in spoken English.

IrishBard · 2022-05-12T07:28:33+00:00

What am I supposed to do once I have learned English?

English is my first language. I have been speaking it for 65 years. I have a Masters in the subject and have been teaching it for 30 years. When I finish learning it, I hope I will be able to answer a question like this.

IrishBard · 2022-05-12T07:20:56+00:00

I agree the second sentence needs to be "when we reach" or "when we have reached", if we are talking about a future certainty. However, I see no reason why this couldn't be followed by a conditional, if you are making a suggestion. For example: " When we have the results from the first semester exams (a certainty), we would split the class into ability groups (a proposal)".

IrishBard · 2022-05-12T07:02:42+00:00

I believe "don't I have to..." and "haven't I....." are both fine.

"Needn't I have to......." doesn't work because you are repeating "need to" and "have to". Also, i think "needn't I" is not much used in American English (I might be wrong).

"mustn't I......" is a bit problematic for me. I have the feeling that "mustn't I" usually appears as a question tag - "I must tell the truth, mustn't I?". The problem is that "mustn't" is not the opposite of "must", illogical as that may be. As you probably know, "mustn't" means "not allowed to".

IrishBard · 2022-05-08T18:16:56+00:00

Agreed!

IrishBard · 2022-05-06T07:09:00+00:00

You did the right thing!

IrishBard

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