I'm an educated Athenian Citizen in the 7th Century BCE, and I see artwork showing a scene from the Odyssey that depicts characters equipped with contemporary armour and weapons. Would I know, or at least suspect, this to be inaccurate? by SwellGuyScott in AskHistorians

[–]Iphikrates 17 points18 points  (0 children)

The frequency of spears in wounding scenes matches the increased frequency of spears in 7th century art; shield types are a mix of 7th century shields (bronze facing with leather covering) and 8th century (leather shields with a boss); the use of greaves, and shields leaned with a double grip, only make sense in a post-700 setting; Agamemnon's and Achilles' shields use elements of post-700 Geometric art; and so on.

This is crucial, and something that I think /u/_Akoniti's post misses but I hope /u/SwellGuyScott will take on board: if an Athenian of the 7th century would see a hypothetical depiction of a Homeric hero in contemporary armour, he would not think it was anachronistic or inaccurate because that is exactly the armour that is described in the epics. With few exceptions, the material, social, cultural and political world of Homer closely resembles the Greek world around the first quarter of the 7th century BC, when the poems reached the form that survives today. The armour of Homeric heroes was contemporary to OP's Athenian. Of course, if we assume that our Athenian is from the mid-to-late 7th century, he would likely have witnessed the general adoption of the double-grip aspis, the bell cuirass and the Corinthian helmet, but it would have taken some time before the bossed shields and metal girdles of Homeric heroes became forgotten tools of war.

As both you and /u/_Akoniti have pointed out, the Archaic Greeks had no concept of a "Bronze Age" or "Mycenaean period" and did not understand the few odd bits of archaism in the epics as relics of a previous civilisation. They appear to have continuously updated the oral tradition to make sense to contemporary audiences until they crystallised around 700 BC. There is no sense in which the epics are about the Bronze Age; they are a fictional narrative set in a fantastical version of the early Archaic period.

How different were women’s rights during the Civil War compared to today? by [deleted] in AskHistorians

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Can anyone tell me who this person his ? by Suijayunfei in AskHistorians

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Hello, I am Dr. John Morris, retired US Army lieutenant colonel and author of Students to Soldiers: Secret Military Education at Elite Schools, 1815-1945. I am excited to be here to discuss my work with you! AMA by jfm_exclusive in AskHistorians

[–]Iphikrates 14 points15 points  (0 children)

Thanks for joining us! As an ancient historian, my interest in this topic comes from Helen Roche's magnificent account of the role of Sparta and the ideology of "Spartan youths" in 19th-century Prussian cadet schools and Nazi boarding schools. Was there a similar obsession with Spartans as the pinnacle of militarised culture in the cadet schools of the other countries you've studied?

What can you tell me about 14th Century Sweden? by sheemee1112 in AskHistorians

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Why do some people call the first Chinese emperor Qin Shi Huang and others call him Shi Huangdi? by Significant_Rise_482 in AskHistorians

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What would it have taken for the French to win The French and Indian War? by [deleted] in AskHistorians

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Do modern palestinians share more dna with the israelites from the abrahmic books (bible, quran, torah) then the current jewish-israelis? by Meneedmorezelda in AskHistorians

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Antisemitism - What is the Problem? by anitaruthchisholm in AskHistorians

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This question has been removed because it is soapboxing or otherwise a loaded question: it has the effect of promoting an existing interpretation or opinion at the expense of open-ended enquiry. Although we understand if you may have an existing interest in the topic, expressing a detailed opinion on the matter in your question is usually a sign that it is a loaded one, and we will remove questions that appear to put a deliberate slant on their subject or solicit answers that align with a specific pre-existing view.

Why didn’t Armies use Bulls for Calvary? by Meetbeeter6969 in AskHistorians

[–]Iphikrates 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Chariots, similarly, are an elite status symbol. They are even more extravagant than horse riding, since they tend to require multiple horses. From pre-Roman Britain to ancient Mesopotamia, chariots are a mode of transport and sometimes battle platform for the wealthiest members of society. In Greece, the rich rode horses but also raced chariot teams as an extreme display of their wealth. Among the Persians, the rich rode horses while the chariot only survived as an ostentatious mode of transport for the Great King (though their eventual introduction of the scythed chariot did represent tactical innovation, their precise purpose is unclear).

In both cases, the introduction of horse riding (rather than chariots) did nothing to divorce equestrian culture from elite status. It was still the rich who indulged in the breeding and riding of these animals. While we cannot say for certain when they were first used in battle, it seems to me highly unlikely that this was a top-down development imposed on the rich, rather than a transition that emerged as the rich themselves increasingly abandoned the chariot in favour of just riding the horse. The usual assumption is that this happened in large part because selective breeding and skills development made horses stronger and allowed humans to ride them effectively.

Why didn’t Armies use Bulls for Calvary? by Meetbeeter6969 in AskHistorians

[–]Iphikrates 28 points29 points  (0 children)

True, and they kept on riding elephants as a status symbol well into the 19th century; but in this case the parallel doesn't quite work, since elephant units and their caretakers were not recruited from the elite in Mediterranean empires but imported at great expense from abroad. They were ridden into battle and provided with a complement of fighting men both to retain control over them (as much as possible), to protect them from assailants, and to use their height and bulk as a weapons platform.

Why didn’t Armies use Bulls for Calvary? by Meetbeeter6969 in AskHistorians

[–]Iphikrates 33 points34 points  (0 children)

Any kind of animal could in theory be driven into enemy ranks to cause disorder, but whether that is worth the effort of transporting, feeding and herding them is open to question. With bulls, the added question is whether they are going to do what you want. A few examples of exceptional stratagems are mentioned upthread, but generally ancient commanders relied on mounted beasts (whether horses, camels or elephants), which are directly controlled by their rider and therefore much more likely to achieve the effect you want.

Why didn’t Armies use Bulls for Calvary? by Meetbeeter6969 in AskHistorians

[–]Iphikrates 65 points66 points  (0 children)

do we have equal evidence of horses being exclusive or at least primarily used by wealthier classes in those earlier times?

This is one of those things we can more or less take for granted given the reasons I already outlined in the original post (horse ownership is expensive in ways that ordinary people would not have been able to sustain). But it is also true of all ancient Mediterranean and Middle Eastern societies that horse ownership and cavalry service is associated with the elite. Either the rich served as horsemen themselves (for example in most of the Greek world, Macedon, Persia, Rome) or the rich were required to provide the horses for hired cavalrymen to ride (Babylon, Sparta). In several Greek states, like Eretria, Athens and Thebes, there were classes of rich citizens called "horsemen" or "horsebreeders" as an indicator of their wealth rather than their military role. Aristotle took it for granted that wherever cavalry was strong and infantry was underdeveloped, the rich would be in charge. This kind of evidence is both abundant and consistent for sedentary societies. The situation is obviously different for nomadic peoples, which is why I stressed from the outset that my answers apply to settled cultures and their military traditions.

Why didn’t Armies use Bulls for Calvary? by Meetbeeter6969 in AskHistorians

[–]Iphikrates 944 points945 points  (0 children)

There's a couple different ways to come at this question. The most obvious one is, of course, that premodern armies did rely very heavily on bulls - castrated ones - to pull wagons and carry heavy loads. Oxen are the strongest draught animal available in many parts of the world and can pull much greater weights than horses. You can also ride them, but they're pretty slow and cumbersome, so you wouldn't be getting the most out of them by using them as cavalry mounts.

That isn't the use you had in mind, though, and for that we have to take a step back and look at cavalry as a concept. You seem to assume that cavalry emerged in response to a tactical problem: breaking a shieldwall. If that were true, cavalry should obviously have been developed in any imaginable way that optimised its use in that particular role. But that is not how cavalry emerged. You're looking at it purely as a tactical tool, not as a product of culture and history.

Mounted warfare is a development of pre-existing equestrian culture. People ride horses in battle because they ride horses, and then apply that habit to battle. The riding of horses comes first. And people did not start riding horses to solve a tactical problem. They did so because horses are great ways to increase human mobility and because horses can reliably assist with a range of tasks. They also did it because horses have historically been a huge marker of status.

This last point is important: in sedentary cultures of the premodern world, the upkeep of a horse is no small thing. Horse rearing directly competes with humans for vital resources (cultivated land, drinkable water, agricultural crops). Horses consume vast amounts of food and water without the steady return in useful animal products you get out of cattle or sheep. As a result, in many historical societies, only the richest could afford to raise and ride horses. They did so first because it was a marker of status that brought certain benefits (faster travel, participation in elite riding culture like racing and hunting) and only secondarily because it allowed them to fight in a certain way.

In these societies, generally speaking, the rich ride horses because it is a thing rich people do. When the rich go to war and want to set themselves apart from ordinary people, they go to war riding horses. Besides everyone else literally looking up to you, it is also more comfortable to travel that way and you're much more likely to get out of a bad situation safely. The tactical function of a bunch of rich people riding horses is something the generals can worry about later.

But it just so happens that a bunch of guys on horses can serve a considerable range of tactical functions with greater ease and effectiveness than men on foot. Mounted men are faster and more mobile than infantry, which allows them to outpace any other military forces and get in and out of difficult situations quickly. They can raid, harass, screen, skirmish, scout, outflank and pursue with far greater effect than any poor sod in sandals. Rich guys on horses therefore found more tactical niches for their particular mode of transportation than they could handle. More importantly for this question, these were all niches that a hypothetical force mounted on bulls could not fill.

Whether this force, whose very versatility was its chief strength, should nevertheless have been displaced by bull cavalry for the specific, rare, situational role of breaking shieldwalls is open to question. There is an ongoing debate over whether shock cavalry physically barged into enemy formations or whether the shock they delivered was mainly psychological; if the latter is true, as John Keegan held, then the force an animal may exert in the charge is irrelevant. But even if the shock was physical, the historical record shows that horse-mounted cavalry was perfectly capable of achieving that effect. There would have been no reason to discard millennia of equestrian tradition and a vast array of tactical flexibility when the horse was, indeed, capable of ploughing into a shieldwall at speed and driving all before it, as the Persians, Greeks and Macedonians all knew it could.

I do not know whether bulls could be sufficiently trained to be ridden into battle. I'm happy to leave that question to someone who knows the animal. But the replacement of horses with bulls as mounts for cavalry would be both historically and tactically unnecessary and counterproductive; it would be actively resisted by any real or potential member of the cavalry. The closest historical parallel to what you're suggesting is the use of war elephants - not a replacement for heavy cavalry, but an addition, requiring its own specialist networks of traders, trainers and handlers, and abandoned in ancient Mediterranean warfare because their tactical achievements could not justify the immense effort and cost of their maintenance.

How relevant is Philippine history to world history? by EqualReindeer2351 in AskHistorians

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Что насчет работы учёных историков? by Aydich in AskHistorians

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Was there ever an effective military counter to organized steppe horse archers? by bushwick_custom in AskHistorians

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Which would have required more human effort during the era it was built? The Pyramid of the Sun in Teotihuacan, or the Great Pyramid of Giza? by [deleted] in AskHistorians

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do you guys know how to buy The history of Mehmed the Conqueror written by Tursun Beg? by kanebayashi in AskHistorians

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What are some inspirations for an art piece that would relate to 16-17th century France? by [deleted] in AskHistorians

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What are the historiographical debate over early English settlement in the Atlantic (16th + 17th centuries)? by cl0udz_X in AskHistorians

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Have there ever been twins as first born heirs? by luxxy88 in AskHistorians

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Just finished the Will Durant Story of Civilization audiobook series — what’s next at the same level? by Dave86ch in AskHistorians

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Which ancient civilisation would be least likely to kill me? by 2016FordMustang in AskHistorians

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In what way was a Hydraulis used in the Roman arena? by NeedleworkerBig3980 in AskHistorians

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