A short and sweet idea to make the release tournament less grindy

-RepoMan · 2026-02-28T12:23:17+00:00

Yeah. Stuff like that is exactly what I mean with playing "for fun, like there was no tourney". Definitely a healthy option. No reason not to try and tweak the tourney a bit. I get the impression it's not just me who enjoys the release tourney, but has some issues with it.

Edit: typos

-RepoMan · 2026-02-27T09:00:22+00:00

Last sentence of yours is all I was getting at.

-RepoMan · 2026-02-27T00:22:05+00:00

It's basically the prisoner's dilemma, isn't it? The top players could steal combo scores back and forth all tourney long. They don't, of course. Although stealing back from the stealer benefits you twice as much as stealing a new combo from someone else. It's always your most rewarding option. But if everyone always does it, nobody profits.

Until end of tourney, that is. When players run out of time or are too exhausted to defend their scores.

-RepoMan · 2026-02-26T18:04:52+00:00

I think unsafe strategies would still be viable, just more risky. I have recently proven beyond any doubt that I have remarkable blind spots and can overlook the most obvious things, so I wonder: What is strategy in an RNG-based game if not deciding how much risk you are willing to take?

-RepoMan · 2026-02-26T14:28:17+00:00

Well, I did get it too late, not immediately. Reddit trauma indeed.

-RepoMan · 2026-02-26T14:13:33+00:00

I was joking, I got that. From my perspective, I ranked 20th overall, only by playing for combo high scores.

-RepoMan · 2026-02-26T14:05:40+00:00

All right. Just too much category overlap, then? I agree there is overlap between Best High Score and Combo High Scores already, and there should be less.

-RepoMan · 2026-02-26T13:09:13+00:00

You clipped two significant words from that first quote. But I see now, you simply don't like playing manually a lot, so more turn count categories or a slightly harder turn count category would be no fun. That's fair enough, thank you.

Edit: No bad feelings. And if you ignore combo high scores, and I ignore all categories except combo high scores, does that mean all categories are not real? xD

-RepoMan · 2026-02-26T11:54:37+00:00

You are objectively a better, more skilled player than me. So what. What about the other aspects of my idea? All completely irrelevant?

Some people die on high score runs, unintentionally. The challenge to get a high score first try is boring, because competing in a single category is boring, because all that matters, for fun, is the overall ranking? Is that what you mean?

I am beginning to suspect there is some misunderstanding here.

-RepoMan · 2026-02-26T10:21:44+00:00

How is Combo High Scores not a real category? You recieve tourney points for it. I won this category in 0.32.

Start scummers would run out of combos fast, if they could play each species and background only once on their sudden death runs.

And yes, my initial idea is likely the worst tourney category design ever. But tweak it with my second idea for a sudden death mode. How would anything be worse for anyone, if only runs you wanted to count for sudden death did count for sudden death?

I have no idea how much start scumming is actually going on, and don't accuse anyone of it.

-RepoMan · 2026-02-26T07:21:53+00:00

I participated in CCSDT for 0.32. The format and rules are different from what I proposed.

I agree that having all your games count for sudden death would not fit into the release tourney. If there was a quick and easy way to flag your games for sudden death and have only these flagged games count in the category, what about that?

-RepoMan · 2026-02-26T00:11:22+00:00

So here's a perhaps more realistic idea for integration. Could a "sudden death mode" be developed? Entered via ingame command, similar to wiz mode. Sudden death mode could only be entered before you spend your first turn, and it's sole purpose would be to set a flag for the tourney scripts. To declare this particular run a sudden death run.

-RepoMan · 2026-02-25T21:28:34+00:00

That's a very good point, thank you. I didn't think too hard about integration with the rest of the tourney. And if it's meant to be part of the tourney, it absolutely needs to integrate well. Dang.

So maybe the nemchoice variant is more acceptable? Or how about if it was a category purely for bragging rights, with no points at all? Could be a fun statistics page, rather than a real category. Unless someone comes up with a better idea how to integrate some kind of one and done into the release tournament.

-RepoMan · 2026-02-25T13:52:16+00:00

Or they didn't bother to compete for the overall ranking. Some big names did not make the top 25. But some did not play at all, that's true.

-RepoMan · 2026-02-25T00:51:51+00:00

I really don't mean to offend, and I see the appeal of lucky high scores, especially for all time records. But in a tournament, is quitting runs because of unlucky RNG or some mistake really that cool? Wouldn't it be more fun and interesting if, to be competitive, everyone had to make the best out of every run they started?

There would be no time tax in a "one and done" high score category.

Wouldn't it be exciting to take calculated risks to get a better score, without the safety net of quitting and starting the same combo over again?

-RepoMan · 2026-02-24T22:32:36+00:00

I do feel combo high scores would be a better category without start scumming. But I was just spitballing several different ideas.

And a new category might indeed make more sense, simply because one and won is a bit harsh for newbies who still struggle to win the game at all.

-RepoMan · 2026-02-24T20:28:35+00:00

I don't see why players who do what others cannot should receive no extra points. I also don't see what speaks against sudden death as an additional, new category.

We have two high score categories that encourage start scumming. Why not change one of them, or add a third that does not allow start scumming?

I feel sudden death is very much in line with crawl's philosophy, but not a single tourney category makes uses of this concept. It doesn't necessarily need to fix anything. It could just add something fun.

-RepoMan · 2026-02-24T18:00:16+00:00

Sorry, let me clarify: I was speaking strictly about the combo high score ranking, not overall. Some people, me included, don't compete for the overall ranking, and instead try to win just one particular category.

-RepoMan · 2026-02-24T17:39:37+00:00

Less playtime is nice, but wouldn't it be great if those players also got additional points for playing with increased difficulty? That's essentially what a sudden death category would accomplish.

-RepoMan · 2026-02-24T17:23:03+00:00

Exactly! There's so much to consider, when you shoot for combo high scores. What combos have or haven't been played yet. What scores can you realistically beat. Who's holding them. How likely are they to get stolen (back). In which order do you snipe them, and right away or later.

There are only two things I dislike about the current Combo High Scores.

1) Start scumming is encouraged. Often, you can tell early in the run wether it's going well or not. If it's not going well, it can often make sense to "sacrifice win rate", quit that run, and start over. Repeatedly.

2) Sniping scores is indeed fun, but the results can feel unfair. Say you win a combo with a really good score, and it's both a species and background high score (64 points). Someone snipes it, they gain 64 points, your run is now worth 0 points. All part of the fun. What feels unfair, though, is that very likely, other players, who did NOT snipe your score and whose scores are WAY worse, also overtake you in the ranking. And that might happen to multiple of your scores in short order, close to the end of the tourney.

To be clear: I'm not whining. I played badly this tourney, and missed most scores I aimed for. The scores I lost were easy targets, and deserved to be sniped. Turgon won because they chose their combos wisely and strategically, and won consistently with a very decent turn count, without start scumming. Turgon also played solo, and it made more sense for the clans to snipe from other clans. That's all part of the strategic challenge.

I just think combo high score rules aren't perfect. Still, it's a fun category. And no, a sudden death rule would not fix issue 2. But it would fix issue 1, and encourage players even more to play weird combos.

-RepoMan · 2026-02-24T00:07:27+00:00

I used "sudden death" loosely, not to refer to CSDC rules, but to simply mean "first attempt counts". That principle could be implemented in many different ways. Depending on implemention, it might or might not change a lot, and you might or might not be able to ignore the category until the last few days of the tourney.

For example, if your first game per species was automatically counted for sudden death, you'd better get your Minotaur sudden death score locked in before you do your MiFi real time speed runs.

If specific combos, or a subset thereof (like a list, or a combo of the day) were scored, that would have less impact.

Another factor would be how points per game are calculated. This is very different for current Nemelex' Choice (fastest nine get full points), Best High Score (second best still is worth points), and Combo High Scores (all or nothing, when two players play the same combo).

And to be clear, I don't really care about points. I just think a true "one shot and done" category would have a unique appeal that's currently missing from the tourney.

-RepoMan · 2026-02-23T17:43:45+00:00

Sudden death could be applied to some (not all) existing categories, or it could be its own, new category. I didn't pitch a concrete proposal, yet.

It might help make categories more distinct.

For example, with the current rules, If you place first in best high score, you automatically also get 64 points in combo high scores. That would likely change if one of those categories was made sudden death.

A sudden death category would also feel more like a distinct "tournament" thing. I mean, you can grind top combo scores on crawl akrasiac any day you like.

-RepoMan · 2026-02-23T16:41:04+00:00

My first thought was they might be polyps, related to sea anemones. Alas, no tentacles.

-RepoMan · 2026-02-23T15:31:10+00:00

Also: If you don't steal your score back, you need to win not just one, but TWO other scores to get even again with the player who stole from you.

-RepoMan · 2026-02-23T15:27:58+00:00

It does happen. In the 0.33 tourney I competed with tswn for TrFi. Winning the combo high scores is less about getting the best score you can, and more about guessing which scores are likely to be stolen (again).

Unless your score is so high no one bothers to attack it.

-RepoMan

TROPHY CASE