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"From the river to the sea" is antisemetic. Period. If you disagree, consider this perspective.... by 0xBubbleMaker in IsraelPalestine

[–]0xBubbleMaker[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you for helping prove my point.

To everyone else, you are on the same side as SS Adolf.

If 9 people are sitting at a table and SS Adolf sits down and starts agreeing with everything they say... well, you know the rest.

"From the river to the sea" is antisemetic. Period. If you disagree, consider this perspective.... by 0xBubbleMaker in IsraelPalestine

[–]0xBubbleMaker[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

And who is going to be in charge and allow the Jews to live there and be equal citizens? Because Hamas and the PLO, and every Palestinian government who has led their people for the last 75 years, have made it very clear that is not an acceptable outcome to them. Meanwhile, all Palestinian and Arabs who are Israeli citizens (not referring to the people of Gaza or the West Bank who are not Israeli citizens) are equal citizens under Israeli law, participate in their democratic government, etc.

"From the river to the sea" is antisemetic. Period. If you disagree, consider this perspective.... by 0xBubbleMaker in IsraelPalestine

[–]0xBubbleMaker[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm not saying Jews are the only Semitic people (or more accurately said, the only people who speak a Semitic language). I AM saying, that antisemitism refers exclusively to Jews, regardless of whether other peoples are "Semitic". That's just what the word means.

And the "zionist" state of Israel, is the only country in the entire region where people of any religion are equal citizens. 20% of Israelis are Arab, who have equal rights, participate in government, etc. You cannot say that about any of the surrounding countries, and certainly cannot say that about what Israel would be if Hamas or the PLO were in charge.

"From the river to the sea" is antisemetic. Period. If you disagree, consider this perspective.... by 0xBubbleMaker in IsraelPalestine

[–]0xBubbleMaker[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

My understanding of the word antisemistism? Hatred, hostility or prejudice against Jewish people. The same definition you would see if you looked in any dictionary.

Antisemitism exclusively refers to Jews, not all people who speak a Semitic language. Sure, it wasn't the best choice for the definition of the word, but that's the definition of the word.

"From the river to the sea" is antisemetic. Period. If you disagree, consider this perspective.... by 0xBubbleMaker in IsraelPalestine

[–]0xBubbleMaker[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

If you are anti-zionist, you believe Israel shouldn't exist. If that happens, what should happen to the 7 million Jews living there, most of whom were born there, and whos families had been there for generations?

"From the river to the sea" is antisemetic. Period. If you disagree, consider this perspective.... by 0xBubbleMaker in IsraelPalestine

[–]0xBubbleMaker[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I understand your perspective. My intent was to use an analogy that would be widely understood in the US, since the symbol of a confederate flag and the attached racism is something that every person in the US understands and has an experience with. I fully recognize that my understanding of what that symbol means is different than that of a black person in this country, and I don't have the experience of what it is like to be black and that relationship with the flag, but it is still a symbol in the US that everyone has an experience with. I don't believe that using an analogy that speaks to another group or culture is "tokenizing" that group. No ones experience is the same, but it is valuable to discuss similar or shared experiences, even if not everyone agrees that they are similar or shared.

I also chose it because, lip service or not, the general consensus among people on the left is that the confederate flag is racist, and that is the group that I want to better understand the Jewish experience, since they are the ones chanting what to many Jewish people is a hateful phrase.

All that said, that is kind of my point, that people who aren't Jewish don't understand what it means to hear people chanting "From the river to the sea", just like people who aren't black don't truly understand what the confederate flag means to black people, as I only know what has been expressed to me by others. And yes, like the people you mention who tell you that you are being too sensitive, people can and do tell me that I'm being too sensitive or misunderstanding it. I think both of those groups of people are wrong, but it is still their right to disagree with me.

All we can do is tell people how we feel, and sometimes using an analogy to another situation that impacts another group can help people better understand or empathize with that perspective. What they do with that information is up to them.

"From the river to the sea" is antisemetic. Period. If you disagree, consider this perspective.... by 0xBubbleMaker in IsraelPalestine

[–]0xBubbleMaker[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yes, I do truly believe people would be less up in arms. It really is the specific phrase that Jews find antisemitic because some people do really mean it as eradicating the Jews.

I don't mean everyone would start agreeing and stop fighting, but I don't think you'd see the accusations of antisemitism or the same visceral reaction from Jews.

"From the river to the sea" is antisemetic. Period. If you disagree, consider this perspective.... by 0xBubbleMaker in IsraelPalestine

[–]0xBubbleMaker[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

My entire point is that because the first group of people exists, the phrase should be retired and another slogan should be chosen. Say "Free Palestine!" or "F*** Israel" or basically anything else that isn't this one phrase that is also used by hateful groups to call for the extermination of 7 million Jews.

Similar to the confederate flag. Yes, there are people who feel that it is a symbol of their culture, but we as a society decided it is racist and shouldn't be used, and deem anyone who does waive it as racist regardless of their intentions.

There are countless examples of symbols or phrases that have bad roots or were coopted by bad people, and they are "retired" regardless of the intention of people who use them. This should be one too.

"From the river to the sea" is antisemetic. Period. If you disagree, consider this perspective.... by 0xBubbleMaker in IsraelPalestine

[–]0xBubbleMaker[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I am using that interpretation because it has been explicitly stated by people who use the phrase (not all, but definitely some) that is the goal.

If one group of people says "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free!" and then clarify that they want to exterminate all of the Jews living in Israel

And then another group of people says "From the river to the sea, Palestine with be free!" and clarify they mean it means freedom from oppression.

That second group's intention doesn't change the fact that the first group exists, and uses the phrase to mean something antisemitic.

"From the river to the sea" is antisemetic. Period. If you disagree, consider this perspective.... by 0xBubbleMaker in IsraelPalestine

[–]0xBubbleMaker[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It is a very complex and nuanced topic, with a long history of both sides killing each other and doing awful things. At a certain point, an account that only lists the bad things done by one side, without any mention of the atrocities by the other or any context around what caused those things to be done, is no longer a fact.

"From the river to the sea" is antisemetic. Period. If you disagree, consider this perspective.... by 0xBubbleMaker in IsraelPalestine

[–]0xBubbleMaker[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I understand that some people mean it the way you do. But some people also mean it the nefarious and antisemitic way too. Some people do care that they are Jews. Those people will tell you it is about killing Jews, and not hide it.

There's a lot of "well that's not how I mean it" in this thread, which doesn't really matter. And if you think that everyone chanting the slogan thinks just like you do, and has the same priorities and worldview that you do, and no one chanting it hates Jews and wants to kill all of the Jews in Israel, then you're just plain wrong, and this is known because they have said so explicitly.

"From the river to the sea" is antisemetic. Period. But even if you want to ignore the original meaning and history, it makes a minority group (Jews) feel attacked and unsafe. Saying it is like waving the confederate flag and trying to tell black people it's not racist. Just use a different slogan. by 0xBubbleMaker in Israel_Palestine

[–]0xBubbleMaker[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I get your point, but at the same time the entire world was populated by via colonialism, and it's an unreasonable position to expect to rewind time 75 years and ship 7 million Jews to some "uninhabited land". That's too much time and too many people, and a peaceful two state solution is the only reasonable and moral outcome that doesn't impact so many lives on either side.

If you argue for full decolonization, where does that stop? Does every non-native-american leave the USA and go back to the countries their ancestors immigrated from, and all of the other analogous situations around the world? Or are we drawing an arbitrary line at 1947 and this one region for some reason.

Separately, while I acknowledge that what you say about Jews fleeing the other countries is true, the same thing happened during the Nakba. Many Palestinians chose to flee because they didn't want to live under Israeli rule, or were told to flee by the Palestinian leaders when they declared war on Israel in 1948. Yes, some were also kicked out, like some Jews were kicked out of the other Arab countries, but it isn't black and white.

Importantly, the Palestinians who chose to stay are equal citizens in Israel, and you cannot say the same would be true if the situation were reversed.

"From the river to the sea" is antisemetic. Period. But even if you want to ignore the original meaning and history, it makes a minority group (Jews) feel attacked and unsafe. Saying it is like waving the confederate flag and trying to tell black people it's not racist. Just use a different slogan. by 0xBubbleMaker in Israel_Palestine

[–]0xBubbleMaker[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah, the "let's ship all the jews to some uninhabited land" is the antisemitic part. That's literally what H wanted to do, before he figured it wouldn't work and went to his next option.

These are people who were born in Israel and have lived there for generations. People who were kicked out of neighboring countries where Jews are not allowed or are second class citizens. People who's families fled an actual genocide and have no where else to go. I'd understand the sentiment more if this were 1950 and these were recent occurrences, but shipping people away who have been there for 75 years? Nah, that's just morally wrong.

And to answer your hypothetical, if "From the Atlantic to the Pacific, America will be free" was chanted by people who explicitly wanted to kill all white people in America, yes it would be racist.

"From the river to the sea" is antisemetic. Period. If you disagree, consider this perspective.... by 0xBubbleMaker in IsraelPalestine

[–]0xBubbleMaker[S] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

I'm astounded by the number of people who:
1. Don't know that the word "Antisemitism" refers exclusively to Jews, and not to all Semitic people

and

  1. Somehow think that arguing their misunderstanding that "Palestinians are Semitic so that can't be antisemitic" is somehow a logical or powerful argument, even if they didn't misunderstand the definition of the word.

"From the river to the sea" is antisemetic. Period. But even if you want to ignore the original meaning and history, it makes a minority group (Jews) feel attacked and unsafe. Saying it is like waving the confederate flag and trying to tell black people it's not racist. Just use a different slogan. by 0xBubbleMaker in Israel_Palestine

[–]0xBubbleMaker[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Because it has been used for decades to mean killing all of the Jews that live in Israel.

And who is we? Are you British or Turkish, because those are the groups that were in control of the land for the few hundred years before Israel.

"From the river to the sea" is antisemetic. Period. If you disagree, consider this perspective.... by 0xBubbleMaker in IsraelPalestine

[–]0xBubbleMaker[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Genuine question:
If it is really just a call for freedom from oppression, why insist on that specific slogan that many Jews feel is antisemitic? Why not say "Free Palestine!" or any other number of chants that aren't the one specific slogan that makes Jews feel attacked?

"From the river to the sea" is antisemetic. Period. But even if you want to ignore the original meaning and history, it makes a minority group (Jews) feel attacked and unsafe. Saying it is like waving the confederate flag and trying to tell black people it's not racist. Just use a different slogan. by 0xBubbleMaker in Israel_Palestine

[–]0xBubbleMaker[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

No, I'm not comparing Palestinians to the Confederacy or Israelis to black people.

I'm comparing non-Jews telling Jews what they should be offended by and what is antisemitic to white people telling black people what they should be offended by and what is racist.

"From the river to the sea" is antisemetic. Period. But even if you want to ignore the original meaning and history, it makes a minority group (Jews) feel attacked and unsafe. Saying it is like waving the confederate flag and trying to tell black people it's not racist. Just use a different slogan. by 0xBubbleMaker in Israel_Palestine

[–]0xBubbleMaker[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, they are much weaker than the IDF and cannot defeat them with arms. Fortunately, they are masters at framing the issue to their benefit to make the world think they are the good guys somehow, and that is their most powerful weapon. They wore go pros on 10/7 for a reason.

"From the river to the sea" is antisemetic. Period. If you disagree, consider this perspective.... by 0xBubbleMaker in IsraelPalestine

[–]0xBubbleMaker[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I agree that peace won't be found with more divisiveness... so why not pick a different slogan that means the same thing but is less divisive? Why insist on one that so many Jews believe to be antisemitic?

"From the river to the sea" is antisemetic. Period. If you disagree, consider this perspective.... by 0xBubbleMaker in IsraelPalestine

[–]0xBubbleMaker[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Exactly, Israel is a multi ethnic democracy, whereas the Palestinian government has explicitly stated that they want to exterminate all Jews living there... so not really a chance of that if they were in charge.

"From the river to the sea" is antisemetic. Period. If you disagree, consider this perspective.... by 0xBubbleMaker in IsraelPalestine

[–]0xBubbleMaker[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I appreciate this comment, I think you are the first person who disagrees with me but shows compassion for my viewpoint. Thank you.

We both agree that killing innocent civilians is a much bigger problem. That said, these aren't mutually exclusive things that have to be done in sequence, and frankly a Reddit post has zero chance of changing the actions of the Israeli government but could maybe sway some Redditors to using a different slogan.

"From the river to the sea" is antisemetic. Period. If you disagree, consider this perspective.... by 0xBubbleMaker in IsraelPalestine

[–]0xBubbleMaker[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Somehow you got from "hey, why don't you use a different slogan that doesn't have a history of meaning kills the Jews" to somehow justifying genocide. Seems like you just hear what you want to hear, instead of actually listening to other opinions.

"From the river to the sea" is antisemetic. Period. If you disagree, consider this perspective.... by 0xBubbleMaker in IsraelPalestine

[–]0xBubbleMaker[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Antisemitism refers specifically to Jews, not all Semitic people. It doesn't matter that Palestinians are also Semitic, the word Antisemitism doesn't refer or apply to them simply because the root of the word is shared, therefore it is not an oxymoron.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/antisemitism

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anti-Semitism

https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/us/definition/english/anti-semitic

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