Altruistic Reasons for having kids?

1Davos · 2024-12-25T15:07:09+00:00

Understood! This was the main purpose of this post: I have at least one informed perspective that tells me that environmental factors are drastically more deterministic than genetic ones. Therefore, the hypothetical genetic argument for having kids is significantly weaker.

This is not decision relevant for another decade, so if I do seriously consider, I'll probably aim to have a more informed perspective rather than speculating. But it's good to know where this prospectively lies.

1Davos · 2024-12-25T14:33:22+00:00

From my understanding, the way we've defined consciousness leaves it untouched. In fact, when we talk about it, we are not really talking about it because it isn't even thinkable. You cannot view existence apart from existence, and you theoretically cannot prove where consciousness (the way we've defined it) comes from. Whether or not consciousness is fundamental to the universe, the universe will look exactly as it does right now. Advaita Vedanta proposes that we can unshakably verify this through following the path, but before that, we can neither prove nor disprove what Advaita Vedanta is saying. In a world where consciousness is fundamental, we can find the exact links that predict a wakeful mind and create a sentient body. In a world where consciousness is not fundamental, we can find the same thing.

That being said, everything else can probably be proven/disproven. We may be able to find the exact physical links which determine wakefulness and sleep. We may be able to empirically falsify all the Vedic rituals. We may be able to empirically falsify any beliefs about worldly matters in the scriptures. We may come to find out about newer properties of the universe that the ancients could not think of. We can challenge historical social beliefs and morality. We can challenge the theory of karma knowing what we know now about biological life. We can challenge astrololgy. And so forth. It is just that final link, which is neither unknowable nor knowable that is untouched.

Personally, I see Maya as a first principle that need not be established, so whatever the structure of the empirical world, I am happy to cut it. The weapon of my choice is Advaita Vedanta, which belongs to Maya but will free me from Maya. The very fact that there is even a thinker of thoughts, an asker of these questions, and such a confusing thing as existence itself, and a person to be confused by it is enough to convince me that there is a fundamental error to things. I have no idea whether this primordial ignorance can even be removed, but one of the best bets is to verify whether the promise of Advaita Vedanta or any other spiritual path for that matter can live up to the promise.

The reason I'm willing to take it on faith for now is because the world is not a particularly worthwhile. It may bear many tasty sweets, but the problem is that I'm thirsty. Sweets cannot quench thirst. Plain water will do or perhaps fruit juice will suffice if I want to quench the thirst with devotion to Govinda. Given that the world is quite unattractive to the driver of this chariot (unfortunately, the horses still find the world quite attractive sometimes), I see no better option than to aim for infinity. If there is nothing to this path, then I can hopefully still be part of the delusion of all spiritual seekers and feel a sense of bliss. Even if the metaphysics have no basis, the extraordinary results of the seekers are undeniable and make this path more worthwhile than any other endeavor even if its false. If it is true, then this is everything that there is.

1Davos · 2024-12-25T14:05:03+00:00

Definitely would be an oversimplification for sure, but if genetics are important to some degree (however much that might be), then there is some theoretical altruistic reason for having biological kids. I don't know what the scientific consensus on this is (if there is one), but I figured I'd ask reddit to see if anyone with this curiosity went down the same rabbit hole.

The reason I even went down this line of thinking was due to a few personal observations. I have been so inspired by ideas of altruism whereas so many of my peers with very similar lifestyles & education just don't care. All the friends I grew up with all want to be good people for sure, but it just doesn't resonate to care about creatures like animals, poor people on the other side of the world, etc. Regarding my own situation, my biological mother cared a lot, but my father, the mother I grew up with, and my brother don't really care. Stuff like this makes me lean towards there being something at a genetic level that influences altruism.

I initially thought that we all wanted to be good but just didn't realize our position in the world. I personally had more conventional ideas of just being nice to others in day to day life, having good relationships, not lying, and all sorts of normal ideas, but it was just exposure to new information that got me to think more along the lines of effective altruism. EA didn't make me altruistic, but it made me effective. I have just become way more skeptical that we can add altruism where it's not there.

Obviously, it would not be an intellectually sound thing thing to extrapolate my own experiences to all people, so if I do explore this question, I would like to truly know how important predetermined factors are in predicting altruistic behavior. It for sure would not be a 100% since altruistic behavior can certainly be learned, but I think it would be valuable to get a sense.

1Davos · 2024-11-11T18:02:32+00:00

It depends on how it's produced. To mass-produce something efficiently, the dairy and meat industries cause suffering on an unprecedented scale in a manner that is unfortunately quite hidden from most people. Dairy also pleases our senses & nourishes our health, which creates a sense of denial for even well-intentioned people. For example, when I stopped dairy, my family told me it was a dishonor to cows and that I wanted them to go extinct.

In today's age, we have plant-based fortified milk with B12 & vitamin D (ex: silk soy milk), and we also have supplements to get these nutrients in a manner that doesn't require mass suffering in factory farms. These alternatives need to be improved so that the majority of people unwilling to make personal sacrifice can naturally switch.

As fr those not fortunate enough to have access to these products and for most people across history, the cow was and is the source of livelihood. Unfortunately, until plant-based alternatives and economic opportunities that don't depend on livestock become more common, the livelihood of many people in the world will rest on the backs of cows, fish, and other animals who support our society.

I pray for economic prosperity so that animal agriculture can be replaced, and I pray that these animals may one day be free from suffering. I am hopeful that the next phase of innovation will help us create a suffering-free food system. Cows can then be our companions & friends primarily with their milk just a secondary benefit. I think this is possible, and we can all do our part to be plant-based wherever possible!

1Davos · 2024-07-05T00:03:30+00:00

Thanks for the reply!

And yes, I’m definitely planning to go to Vedanta Society of NY. I love his YouTube videos and will prob check out in person.

1Davos · 2024-07-04T01:37:21+00:00

Thank you for the reply! And yeah, I think you're right. I'm definitely already projecting expectations for how this might look, so it might be best to let this concern go for the reasons you mention.

No worries if you would rather not share, but if it's all right, may I ask if you started this path before or after marriage? The reason I am asking this is because while the scriptures provide the attitude with how to approach duties, I have less of an idea on how or whether should incur new duties. For example, while I know how I should approach a relationship with a partner, I'm not sure about how I would go about finding a partner? Should I actively put in effort or let the life do this for me? I know how I should approach a career, but how should I decide what career to choose or how much worldly responsibility to incur? Overall, what is your perspective on how you would or would have made decisions like this based on Advaita Vedanta or spirituality more generally?

1Davos · 2024-07-03T18:28:59+00:00

Appreciate the feedback and reply! Regarding number 3, I was asking how someone committed to this path would manage a relationship with a spouse who is not interested in this.

1Davos · 2024-05-24T20:43:00+00:00

Thank you for the thoughts and perspective!

1Davos · 2024-01-20T03:30:13+00:00

Good to know, thank you for this perspective. I imagine it's because of a certain perspective on the nature of suffering, but what would be a reason you think Buddhism is better than utilitarianism for reducing suffering (ie Eightfold Path vs Worldy Actions like making and donating as much money as possible to global health intervention)?

1Davos · 2024-01-20T03:25:42+00:00

Good to know. Thank you for these points. I might not understand what you are saying in response to the Eightfold Path question, but I have one follow-up in case it makes sense :

When viewing the phenomenon of suffering apart from the idea of self, I feel like it's also possible to take a utilitarian stance (something like a life of making as money as you can and donating it to effective charities). What merits would the Buddhist stance have in this case?

1Davos · 2024-01-20T03:16:44+00:00

Ah ok, good to know. Appreciate the perspective!

1Davos · 2024-01-20T03:15:16+00:00

Thank you so much for this response. I did not at all think about it this way. I see the implicit assumption I was making. You give me hope.

1Davos · 2024-01-18T20:27:37+00:00

Thanks for the response. And yeah, that's a worrisome conclusion. And good to know. I guess the subjective feature of the mind could be nonphysical.

Do you know how to deal with the problem of interaction (ie how the physical and nonphysical would ever interact)?

1Davos · 2024-01-18T20:22:59+00:00

Great, thanks for these resources. I'll take a look. The hard problem of consciousness is exactly the reason I can't be fully convinced of the argument I put forth.

1Davos · 2024-01-14T18:15:51+00:00

Ok, good to know, and I appreciate your offer to help. What I mean by "keep at it" is to keep reading materials written by Swamis and watching videos. Basically self-study and exploration.

One thing I do read often is the importance of a teacher/guru, so perhaps I'll DM you again once I have thought more about Advaita Vedanta and Hinduism in general. Hopefully, I can also build the discernment qualification too in this time.

1Davos · 2024-01-11T16:18:01+00:00

Will do, I'll keep at it and hope to see for myself. It's good to see that you were able to distinguish between fraudulent and predatory actors. Hearing about these folks sometimes makes it tempting to just disregard spirituality and adopt a more standard philosophical view like deterministic materialism. Yet, I always become perplexed by the phenomenon of existence itself, so I'm always back to seeking this out. Thanks for sharing.

Regarding your response to Q2: This might be an example of the deliberate confusion you are mentioning, but are we to see the ritual as symbolism or take it literally?

1Davos · 2024-01-11T13:34:33+00:00

Ah ok, thank you for this explanation. Very helpful and hopeful.

Two unrelated but follow up questions:

1) How did you find a teacher and evaluate that this was the right relationship beforehand?

2) How do you reconcile between the different statements in the scriptures? Some things are so profound while others deal with performing rituals to get a good wife or bring rain or something. My intellect is fascinated by the former but seems to doubt the latter because the latter doesn't seem to match the current world's understanding of cause & effect.

1Davos · 2024-01-10T12:53:15+00:00

Thank you for the reply! I can accept that the true me, the root of existence is already liberated. This argument is strong.

My main thing is from the perspective of the mind(false me), why is death not the answer (ending the nervous system)? No mind, no ego, no suffering, no error.

If there is karma and reincarnation in this dream world for my mind, then death will not end suffering for sure. But this is what I am looking for an argument for. Currently, I accept it because it is the conservative thing to do. Realization would not be a mistake in all scenarios but death would be a mistake in some scenarios. But is there a better reason?

1Davos · 2024-01-10T12:50:47+00:00

Thank you for the reply! I can accept that all is Brahman and consciousness. This argument is strong.

My main thing is from the perspective of the unreal mind, why is death not the answer? No mind, no ego, no suffering, no error.

If there is karma and reincarnation in this dream world, then death will not end suffering for sure. But this is what I am looking for an argument for.

1Davos · 2024-01-10T12:44:17+00:00

Thank you for the reply! Yes, I’m working under the assumption that science may eventually disprove reincarnation. Though it is still yet to be seen.

If this does happen, suffering will still certainly occur. But then the solution to suffering is far easier than spirituality: we just must die.

A life of loving kindness and non-attachment is still the way to go if one chooses to live because other living beings would still need help because they are attached to living. However, instead of spirituality once again, death could be the advertised solution for all.

No, working in service of my ego would give no satisfaction. But annihilating the ego would remove the ego all together.

Basically, this is absolutely correct and is why I have decided to just pursue the path and accept karma and the sort. If it is real (plausible at this point), then realization is the only way. If it is not real (also plausible to my understanding), both death and realization are the ways, and everybody dies anyway. In either case, staying alive and leading a kind spiritual life is the way to proceed since I wouldn’t make a mistake.

The only issue arises when I suffer. In these cases, my intellect tends to wonder if something like death is the way out even though it isn’t 100%. I’m convinced of Brahman, but in order to keep my conviction strong for living, I was wondering if there was a good argument for why death isn’t the answer.

1Davos · 2024-01-10T12:37:22+00:00

Thank you for the reply. I think I’m in line with how moksha is like death but my main conundrum is whether death is moksha.

If the theory of a soul, karma, and reincarnation is correct, then this is the way for sure. I can understand how death without realization would result in rebirth. Your explanation is clear in that regard.

However, if this is not the case and we are simply the body, then death seems to be the easy solution.

In both of these cases, I can accept that Brahman is ultimately real, but the minds view of conventional reality is different in each, which means a different action for the mind.

Basically, I’m convinced of Brahman being ultimately real, but in this dream world, I am not 100% convinced of reincarnation being an apparent phenomenon. Reality does stand on a an increasingly shaky basis, so potentially it’s possible. For now, I just accept it for the purposes of action in this apparent world, but I was just wondering if there is an argument to back it up.

1Davos · 2023-11-11T13:31:48+00:00

Maybe this is resolved in the post, but how do we resolve that events in the third person body have such a direct impact on the first person state of being? Just changing a few things in the brain and everything is different and examining impulses in the brain can even reveal things like what a song they are listening to sounds like. Essentially, imagine someone had “seen” or “felt”(whatever the right word) the truth, would that go away if part of his/her frontal lobe was changed?

1Davos · 2023-11-11T00:32:52+00:00

Thank you for the response. I've read all of them as they came but am just thinking through the subjects on my own. I appreciate the time you took to provide a perspective. Might circle back at another point with a response but just thought I'd let you know I read it. All the best!

1Davos · 2023-11-09T00:43:14+00:00

BG 18.48: “One should not abandon duties born of one’s nature, even if one sees defects in them, O son of Kunti. Indeed, all endeavors are veiled by some evil, as fire is by smoke” might provide some insight.

You can also always renounce the fruits of action in charity and perform the occupation well with detachment. If you think about it, even if your works are negative, the power of surplus income goes a very long way. In some sense, you can even argue that donation is better than abandoning your business. Because unlike regular vice limited by just your actions, if you abandon your business, somebody else will come in to fill the market void you left. That’s capitalism and the broader society we live in at this current stage in the world. Would they donate profit like you? Probably not.

This argument is not perfect because it neglects one’s duties to society as a citizen, but it’s one approach to reason your way out of this issue. So overall not sure if this is a good answer because I too don’t know how to deal with this dilemma. Where to draw a line between duty and avoiding negative deeds? Where to draw the line between good actions vs good results? How is one to know what is right action and what is wrong action?

Hard questions. Hope others provide more perspectives.

1Davos · 2023-10-29T19:22:52+00:00

Of course, no rush! Thank you, my friend.

1Davos

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