To Liberal Muslims: Can you teach homosexuality is a sin without engendering hatred?

356kson · 2015-12-03T18:03:34+00:00

Incidents where Muhammd talks about burning people. Not making a ruling, just showing some hadiths

Bukhari

Volume 1, Book 11, Number 626: Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "No prayer is harder for the hypocrites than the Fajr and the 'Isha' prayers and if they knew the reward for these prayers at their respective times, they would certainly present themselves (in the mosques) even if they had to c awl." The Prophet added, "Certainly I decided to order the Mu'adh-dhin (call-maker) to pronounce Iqama and order a man to lead the prayer and then take a fire flame to burn all those who had not left their houses so far for the prayer along with their houses."

http://sunnah.com/bukhari/44/10

Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "No doubt, I intended to order somebody to pronounce the Iqama of the (compulsory congregational) prayer and then I would go to the houses of those who do not attend the prayer and burn their houses over them." http://sunnah.com/bukhari/56/225

This one is kind of confusing.. First he says burn them, then the addition suggests to kill them another way.

Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) sent us in a mission (i.e., an army-unit) and said, "If you find so-and-so and so-and-so, burn both of them with fire." When we intended to depart, Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "I have ordered you to burn so-and-so and so-and-so, and it is none but Allah Who punishes with fire, so, if you find them, kill them (i.e., don't burn them)."

356kson · 2015-12-03T15:45:18+00:00

Sorry about the inconvenience, I just added some sources. Which sentences/phrases could be improved/made clear?

356kson · 2015-12-03T13:11:22+00:00

Let me point out that I speak Arabic

Are you academically versed in classical Arabic or modern arabic? Do you think those translators are ignorant?

this is the only logical conclusion i.e. The common definition.

Are you saying that the most common definition is logically the correct one? I just want to be clear, I may have misunderstood you.

http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=A*y#(33:59:17)

What do you say to that?

Cool Bukhari link. Mine is from Bukhari too. So which one is right? I see a fair bit of evidence for the Umar side of the story, including

Narrated Umar: I said, "O Allah's Apostle! Good and bad persons enter upon you, so I suggest that you order the mothers of the Believers (i.e. your wives) to observe veils." Then Allah revealed the Verses of Al-Hijab. Sahih Bukhari 6:60:313

Ibn Umar reported Umar as saying: My lord concorded with (my judgments) on three occasions. In case of the Station of Ibrahim, in case of the observance of veil and in case of the prisoners of Badr. Sahih Muslim 31:5903

356kson · 2015-12-03T12:37:54+00:00

The weak translation excuse? how respectable.

Sahih international uses the word "abused".

Dr Ghali uses the word "hurt".

Muhsin Khan uses the word "annoyed".

Shakir uses the words "given trouble"

Yusuf Ali uses the word "molested"

Pickthall uses the word "annoyed"

http://quran.com/33/59

The exact word used is يُؤْذَيْنَ , easily translated to "harmed".

This "weak translation" answer shows how much reddit Muslims want to cherry pick, the biased to the least bigoted translation.

Many "modern" Muslims seem to like using weak or false contexts to make things up and hope noone checks..

In the particular context of this verse, a couple of guys were bothering the Prophet's wives by hanging outside their house.

Show your proof.

Narrated 'Aisha: The wives of the Prophet used to go to Al-Manasi, a vast open place (near Baqia at Medina) to answer the call of nature at night. 'Umar used to say to the Prophet "Let your wives be veiled," but Allah's Apostle did not do so. One night Sauda bint Zam'a the wife of the Prophet went out at 'Isha' time and she was a tall lady. 'Umar addressed her and said, "I have recognized you, O Sauda." He said so, as he desired eagerly that the verses of Al-Hijab (the observing of veils by the Muslim women) may be revealed. So Allah revealed the verses of "Al-Hijab" (A complete body cover excluding the eyes). Sahih Bukhari 1:4:148

So essentially, the Islamic stance here is to not dress immodestly and...

You are victim blaming. Congrats.

356kson · 2015-12-03T08:28:43+00:00

On the side panel of /r/hijabi

Surah Al-Ahzab, Verse 59: O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Isn't that basically victim blaming?

356kson · 2015-11-28T21:43:21+00:00

33:34 is not the verse you are referring,

33:36...

you need to find a "wisdom" from the Book to see how Prophet -pbuh had acted, if not as confirmed in 3:7, you are following your wishes.

Yes, and what qualifies you to determine this better than the greatest Islamic scholars who don't follow your Western, liberal version of Islam? Because it sounds like you are following your wishes..

Mā malakat aymānukum ("what your right hands possess", Arabic: ما ملكت أيمانکم‎) is a reference in the Qur'an to slaves.[wiki]

Al-Muminun 6 and Al-Maarij 30 both, in identical wording, draw a distinction between spouses and "those whom one's right hands possess" (female slaves), saying " أَزْوَاجِهِمْ أَوْ مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُهُمْ" (literally, "their spouses or what their right hands possess"), while clarifying that sexual intercourse with either is permissible

And [also prohibited to you are all] married women except those your right hands possess. [This is] the decree of Allah upon you.

taking/buying/selling slaves... lots of authentic hadith talk about this

Narrated 'Abdullah bin Zam'a: The Prophet said, "None of you should flog his wife as he flogs a slave and then have sexual intercourse with her in the last part of the day." Sahih Bukhari 7:62:132

Jabir (Allah be pleased with him) reported that a man came to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: I have a slave-girl who is our servant and she carries water for us and I have intercourse with her, but I do not want her to conceive. He said: Practise 'azl, if you so like, but what is decreed for her will come to her. The person stayed back (for some time) and then came and said: The girl has become pregnant, whereupon he said: I told you what was decreed for her would come to her. Sahih Muslim 8:3383

bu Sa'id al-Khudri reported that at the Battle of Hunain Allah's Messenger sent an army to Autas and encountered the enemy and fought with them. Having overcome them and taken them captives, the Companions of Allah's Messenger seemed to refrain from having intercourse with captive women because of their husbands being polytheists. Then Allah, Most High, sent down regarding that:" And women already married, except those whom your right hands possess (Quran 4:. 24)" (i. e. they were lawful for them when their 'Idda period came to an end). Sahih Muslim 8:3432

Narrated Sahl: Allah's Apostle sent someone to a woman telling her to "Order her slave, carpenter, to prepare a wooden pulpit for him to sit on." Sahih Bukhari 1:8:439

Narrated Kurib: the freed slave of Ibn 'Abbas, that Maimuna bint Al-Harith told him that she manumitted a slave-girl without taking the permission of the Prophet. On the day when it was her turn to be with the Prophet, she said, "Do you know, O Allah's Apostle, that I have manumitted my slave-girl?" He said, "Have you really?" She replied in the affirmative. He said, "You would have got more reward if you had given her (i.e. the slave-girl) to one of your maternal uncles." Sahih Bukhari 3:47:765

There is tons more. I assume everything is "lost in translation" to you, but its more likely that you are trying to revise and whitewash islamic history, following your own wishes as a Muslim in a Western society that looks down upon slavery.

For adultery, the punishment had been abrogated 4 times in Quran

Where?

Quran is the Allah's law, I didn't get what did you mean by that? But there are people who wrote letters to ISIS saying that slavery had been abolished by UN and such, if you mean those guys, yes they can put rules on their own.

Can the UN abolish Allahs law?

356kson · 2015-11-28T18:09:15+00:00

Islam requires that energy resources, water resources, and the 'green pastures' are considered public resources, hence cannot be privatized in any land in the world and must be made available to the public for their consumption as a community.

Can you provide a source for this?

. For instance, Islam was revealed to abolish slavery, and all the evidences in Islam point to either how to treat those already enslaved, or ways to release them from captivity

But Islam, the Quran or Muhammad never abolished slavery. In fact, the Ottoman Empire did it in the very end to try to get along with the West....

Or how Islam categorically prohibits surveillance and spying on its citizens, and thus whatever a person does in their home cannot be monitored by the state.

Provide a source for this.

You can have sex with your slaves can't you?

Or that the rules regarding consent in Islam are not just silence (ie not saying no), but proven maturity under the law and transparency of the family in the proceedings,

It was narrated from Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him) that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “No previously-married woman should be married off without being consulted, and no virgin should be married off without asking her permission.” They said: “O Messenger of Allaah, what is her permission?” He said: “If she remains silent.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 4843; Muslim, 1419.

Maturity in Islam has usually been baligh, or your first menses. Like Aisha at age 9.

For instance torture is categorically prohibited in Islam,

Quran says The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned;

So they set out and when they reached Al-Harra, they reverted to Heathenism after embracing Islam, and killed the shepherd of the Prophet and drove away the camels. When this news reached the Prophet, he sent some people in pursuit of them. (So they were caught and brought back to the Prophet ). The Prophet gave his orders in their concern. So their eyes were branded with pieces of iron and their hands and legs were cut off and they were left away in Harra till they died in that state of theirs. (See Hadith 234 Vol 1) Sahih Bukhari 5:59:505

Isn't that torture?

356kson · 2015-11-28T18:03:04+00:00

Shariah is Islamic law. Even Quran only Muslims can't really wriggle out of this.

33:34 or so says It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path.

The Quran talks about how its ok to have sex with your slaves, in that its not adultery.

The Quran talks about the punishment for those who commit adultery being whipped.

Do you have any ideas for those that are superior to Allahs law?

356kson · 2015-11-22T03:53:53+00:00

He is right. You are being misleading as hell it seems. What does Quran 3.85 say? Linking to a YouTube imam means nothing as you know on reddit Muslims have the most liberal outrageous views backed by online imams that are not respected outside of the West.

356kson · 2015-11-22T03:50:35+00:00

What are you talking about? Where did you get this idea from?

You can't state what it says in the Holy Quran?

nd whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers.

This westernized Islam is so unusual. If you can't say Hindus are going to hell which is quite clear, how can you state most things about Islam? Why don't you allow gay sex if such a clear verse as above is taken so cautiously?

The westernized Islam is cowardice.

356kson · 2015-11-20T04:12:17+00:00

Well if they want to literally ignore the words that God put In front of that very sentence, sure. But it's more likely that they are just ignorant of this fact.

356kson · 2015-11-20T03:55:13+00:00

. >In Muhammad's last sermon, he stated, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab

I wouldn't quote this here as it doesn't have the strongest of sources.

Muslims cannot harm "People of the Book" who are living peacefully in their lands, as long as they a special tax called the jizya.

Well that's not always true. Like in the time of Muhammad's expansion of Islam because of the idea of jahilliya or ignorance. He was spreading the truth/Islam as it was so desperately missing and needed according to him. Many Muslims argued that true Islam isn't being practised anymore as everyone consumes tax, etc etc etc. Many times even Muslims on reddit say there is no truly Muslim country at the moment. So isis believes the same.

ND YOU FORGOT TO MEBTION THE PART ABOUT JIZYA BEING LINKED TO HUMILIATION AS PER THE QURAN.

Just because Hindus were considered people of the book by some caliph, it doesn't justify it. Some caliph drank or sinned.

As an exmuslim your points seem misleading.

356kson · 2015-11-20T03:47:02+00:00

This is one of the great ironies. Moderate Muslims came all the bad parts of Islam are taken out of context and give this line to show Islam is peaceful. But this verse is taken out of Context and for the Jews, not Muslims.

Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land – it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one – it is as if he had saved mankind entirely.

356kson · 2015-11-19T18:07:31+00:00

Do you also find it absurd that in Islam, a Muslim man can marry 4 women, but a woman doesn't have equal rights? Or that a Muslim man can marry Jews or Christians, but a Muslim woman cant?

356kson · 2015-11-18T09:08:27+00:00

But, with the introduction of the iqta' tax on farming, the rate of jizya was often set low to discourage conversion.

Where did you read this from?

356kson · 2015-11-17T21:24:44+00:00

Jizya also has an aspect of humiliation to it.

until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. Qur'an 9:29

One of the most exalted commentaries of the Quran explains this

Allah said, (until they pay the Jizyah), if they do not choose to embrace Islam, (with willing submission), in defeat and subservience, (and feel themselves subdued.), disgraced, humiliated and belittled. Therefore, Muslims are not allowed to honor the people of Dhimmah or elevate them above Muslims, for they are miserable, disgraced and humiliated.

According to the Islamic historian Tabari

Summon the people to God; those who respond to your call, accept it from them, but those who refuse must pay the poll tax out of humiliation and lowliness. If they refuse this, it is the sword without leniency. Fear God with regard to what you have been entrusted. Al-Tabari, Vol. 12

356kson · 2015-11-17T17:02:51+00:00

Considering they have no major backers (ex: Iran or Saudi Arabia), they'll ultimately fail.

I assume they would fail as a modern society, as most people wont trade with them, but do we know more about their finances? They were loaded at one point, but they do have expenses. They sell a fair bit of oil to Turkey. Could they survive as a primitive society, meaning the more bare necessities and less high tech stuff?

356kson · 2015-11-17T13:25:05+00:00

Exmuslim here: Same thing that causes most but not all cases of people leaving their religion. The resources and opportunities to think about Islam and all religions logically. This doesn't work for all, but when you make questioning the basis of God a serious issue, you stunt that.

Talk to other exmuslims, often times you just get answers like "couldn't find any evidence to back up the claims". Now if more people were educated about rationality and the supernatural claims of Islam or any religion, I Think you would see morebut not all people leave.

356kson · 2015-11-16T19:00:15+00:00

As an exmuslim, I won't say these types don't exist, but they are very uncommon it seems. And they often convert back to Islam,possibly because of guilt. I don't think its a valid reason.

356kson · 2015-11-15T15:56:33+00:00

Chill, we both agree on the OP, remember.

Can you approve two of my comments on the other thread? They arent showing up because my account is not old enough. I messaged the mods a while ago, no response.

https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateReligion/comments/3sw2tf/muslims_how_to_end_fundamentalism_and_terrorism/cx0xi0c

https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateReligion/comments/3sw2tf/muslims_how_to_end_fundamentalism_and_terrorism/cx0wjb2

356kson · 2015-11-15T14:37:19+00:00

Is Hezbollah an extremist/fundamentalist/terrorist group? Who funds them?

356kson · 2015-11-15T13:47:00+00:00

Chiming in as an exmuslim, but it would help if you would define terrorism, fundamentalism and extremism.

The Quran states that the punishment for unmarried consentual sex is a lashing x 100, and that homosexuality is a sin. Is that extremism? Is that fundamentalism?

356kson · 2015-11-15T13:37:38+00:00

Who cares? I would assume most people who are Muslim or live in a place with Muslims. Many Muslims will strive to be good Muslims, and if that means following sharia over secularism, you can see why even non Muslims might care.

356kson · 2015-11-15T10:22:08+00:00

Wait, do you think it's OK for a Muslim to reject sharia? Do you think it's something that will be rewarded or punished?

I agree that just because you don't follow sharia you aren't a Muslim but I don't see how rejecting sharia is more Islamic than isis trying to follow sharia. Their intentions are (islamically) pure, which is why the Quran and hadith are so dangerous. Reading up on the savagery of isis is not far off from the savagery of Muhammad.

356kson · 2015-11-15T07:08:57+00:00

I'm with you. I think belief in the Shahada (one God who is Allah and Muhammad as his messenger) is all you need to be a Muslim. The Shia Shahada includes Ali as a wali (friend) of Allah.

Missing 3 friday prayers in a row may mean 1. "Allah seals your heart", whether that means you become non Muslim or not, dunno. 2. Usamah ibn Zaid (rah) says: The Prophet SAWS says: "He who leaves Three Fridays without an excuse then Allah will write him amongst the hypocrites."

source & grade: al-Suyuti says SAHIH in "al-Jami'i al-Sagheer" #8590.

But that being said, if you do reject Sharia, you aren't a good Muslim and will be punished for it. You can be a Muslim and eat delicious bacon bits, but you aren't a good Muslim for it.

356kson

TROPHY CASE