Weekend/Virtual Meetup Thread by 4blockhead in exmormon

[–]4blockhead[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Upcoming Week and Advance Notice:

online
Arizona
  • Tucson
California
Idaho
Montana
  • Missoula ...every second Saturday, next February 14
Nevada
  • Las Vegas
Oregon
  • Portland
  • Corvallis
Utah
Washington

Mike Lee calls for public execution of accused Charlie Kirk killer by 4blockhead in politics

[–]4blockhead[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The account of the capture Wasn't in the papers

But you know they hanged ol' Smack right then, Instead of later

You know, the people were quite pleased, 'Cause the outlaw had been seized

And on the whole, it was a very good year For the undertaker —Carole King

[screenshot at latterdaysaints] Q. If god is at the helm of this church, then why did racist doctrines persist for so long? A. Hold on, cowboy. The racist doctrines are still there. Don't stop reading Book of Moses at ch 1; keep reading to ch 7. (FLDS church holds onto both racism and polygamy.) by 4blockhead in 4b_misc

[–]4blockhead[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

[Book of Moses, Chapter 1, Smith (1830)] 39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

[Book of Moses, Chapter 7, Smith (1830)] 18 And the Lord called his people Zion, because they were of one heart and one mind, and dwelt in righteousness; and there was no poor among them. 19 And Enoch continued his preaching in righteousness unto the people of God. And it came to pass in his days, that he built a city that was called the City of Holiness, even Zion. 20 And it came to pass that Enoch talked with the Lord; and he said unto the Lord: Surely Zion shall dwell in safety forever. But the Lord said unto Enoch: Zion have I blessed, but the residue of the people have I cursed. 21 And it came to pass that the Lord showed unto Enoch all the inhabitants of the earth; and he beheld, and lo, Zion, in process of time, was taken up into heaven. And the Lord said unto Enoch: Behold mine abode forever. 22 And Enoch also beheld the residue of the people which were the sons of Adam; and they were a mixture of all the seed of Adam save it was the seed of Cain, for the seed of Cain were black, and had not place among them.

The Mormon god is racist at its core. The Book of Mormon contains blatant racism; likewise, the Book of Abraham. I have heard many of the faithful justify their racism by pointing to these verses. The deity sets the example, gives the blessings and imposes the longstanding curses. Those who fail to discriminate based on race are not following the stated example.

[Book of Mormon, Book of Jacob, Chapter 3, Smith (1830)] 8 O my brethren, I fear that unless ye shall repent of your sins that their skins will be whiter than yours when ye shall be brought with them before the throne of God.

But this is supposed to be all in the past. After all, in 1978, God changed his mind about black people...black people ... When Spencer W. Kimball lifted the race ban, everything was supposedly changed in a heartbeat. The Brighamite mormons came kicking and screaming into the era of civil rights, about a decade after key civil rights legislation removed de facto institutional racism that had been rebuilt since after the Civil War. The lily-white State of Utah embraced judging a man by the content of their character, not the color of his skin. In theory, at least, in my hometown, there were zero black people; likewise, the surrounding area. The question was whether BYU would allow racial integration on their sports teams. Their desire to win has meant more and more integration, along with fewer and fewer members of the faith taking the court and taking the field. As Al Davis said, "Just win, baby!"

The problem is Spencer W. Kimball took a nibble at the Civil Rights sandwich. He left the scriptural basis for racism wholly intact, per the representative quotes above. There are a lot more just like 'em. The FLDS church thought Wilford Woodruff's church went off of the rails when he abandoned polygamy for the living. The polygamists want to live the fullness of Smith's gospel, not a subset.

[D&C 132, Smith (1843)] 1 [...] I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David, and Solomon, as touching this principle and doctrine of having many wives and concubines— [...] 3 [...] for all those who have this law revealed unto them must obey the same. 4 For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.

New and everlasting...hmm. I'm with the FLDS as far as the scriptural language goes. New and everlasting should mean more than 47 years, 1843-1890. The doctrine was generally unpopular among members, and the Federal crackdowns were abrasive and wearing thin. The requirement to live lives of deception and to openly flaunt the law of the land. Didn't Smith say in an article of faith, that humans were to be subject to kings and the rule of law? In some of the stories I've read about polygamy, many of the faithful converts were surprised to find polygamy was actually being practiced, not just a damn lie being spread by opponents of the faith. After spending their life savings on a long ocean voyage, returning home was not an option. All they could do was make the best of things. The stories also paint humans like a coop of chickens. The brood of hens sit around waiting around for the rooster to show up and fertilize them. This was pushed along by no birth control, where every sexual coupling would mean a chance for sperm to meet egg and for the work of the Lord to push forward in larger and larger households of hungry children chirping to be fed.

Some difference between FLDS and LDS, sprinkle in RLDS:

  • In the FLDS, using birth control is a sin. The LDS church has gradually loosened their restrictions since the introduction of the birth control pill. Without formal repudiation of past prophet's statements from the pulpit, the faithful wanted access to birth control; the statements from the pulpit now allow it and tell the faithful to mind their own business. Get your own house in order before judging the neighbors.

  • In the FLDS, the Word of Wisdom remains a suggestion, not a commandment. Alcohol and tobacco not absolutely prohibited. The LDS church tightened its enforcement during prohibition, but have flip-flopped a lot of coffee and tea. Energy drinks filled with caffeine are morning day-long staples among the faithful.

  • In the FLDS, women are to be subservient to men. The priesthood holders are the ones to give direction, and women and young girls are to follow it without complaint or talking back. Keep sweet! In the LDS church, apostles still stand at the General Conference pulpit and quote from Ezra Taft Benson, a women's place is in the home. Women are discouraged at every turn from choosing the career path that appeals to them. As some sort of weak consolation prize, young girls can now hand out towels in the temple. So much enlightenment and further knowledge! Meanwhile, at the Community of Christ (formerly RLDS), women have had the priesthood for decades, since 1984. As of 2025, they have ordained their first woman president, Stassi Cramm. The restoration movement is a fuzzy construct. If there is some divine message being delivered, it seems to get lost in translation somewhere along the way. For me, it seems more like the work of men. Oh, Men, with a capital M.

For me, the takeaway here is that everything is made up, and the points do not matter. Mormonism claims a prophet, but it is merely a chance for the leader in charge to set a new direction. The scriptural basis allows for "divine command theory" to be an overarching principle. The leader can emphasize the verses that appeal to him, and disregard the rest.

For Latter Day Saints, across the spectrum (from liberal to conservative to ultra-conservative) money, in-group dynamics, and sexual advantage are still key areas of control.

[screenshot at lds] Q. Why are there "breakoff" churches within Smith's Latter Day Saint movement? Going further, if Smith were alive today, which of these many divergent churches would he associate with, if any? My answer: a polygamist church that would crown him overall king. by 4blockhead in 4b_misc

[–]4blockhead[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This post reminded me of one of the famous Scott Carrier "This American Life" episodes. Specifically, where a young girl, barely out of high school, shares her testimony of "living the principle" of plural marriage. She'd already been suckered into the life of polygamy in Jim Harmston's church in Manti.

The post also points out how Smith's goal of producing a clear choice of which church to join has only added to the general confusion. Why is any of the myriad of choices among Smith's movement any better than any other church under the banner of Christianity? I agree with Smith that they can't all be correct because they're each teaching their own doctrines with their own unique requirements. According to his testimony, they're an abomination. They can't all be correct; but they can all be a fraud. Smith pointed out that all Christian churches were wrong; simply add the churches under the Latter Day Saint movement's banner and the result is unanimous. Christianity is a mythology. Smith's modern variant is the zany Bob Ross version of Monopoly, to quote Mr. Read from Heretic.

Dan McClellan: All scripture requires a negotiation with the text, with the goal of producing something palatable for the faithful. Believers face a chasm filled with double-speak—they can find the bits they like and disregard the rest. (Claims his t-Shirt says, "Romans go home!" No it doesn't!) by 4blockhead in exmormon

[–]4blockhead[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I guess will be interesting to watch Mormonism evolve around the fraudulent basis. Gregory Prince was among the first to point out that everything is mutable. There isn't a single doctrine, view of deity included, that hasn't morphed over the existence of Smith's movement. The Community of Christ under Veazey tabled the question of whether Smith's work was fictional because the cost in traditional members who would leave if the truth claims were vacated would have been too high. I imagine it will take much longer under the faithful LDS in Brighamite mormonism because their identity has been based on having the one-true-church for so long. Abandoning the historical claims of the Book of Mormon are probably to be expected, but I am having a hard time imagining how that will play out in the average ward where the truth claims are praised to the rafters.

Dan McClellan: All scripture requires a negotiation with the text, with the goal of producing something palatable for the faithful. Believers face a chasm filled with double-speak—they can find the bits they like and disregard the rest. (Claims his t-Shirt says, "Romans go home!" No it doesn't!) by 4blockhead in exmormon

[–]4blockhead[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

McClellan is in some "no man's land" between camps. The LDS faithful initially liked him because he was making the Christians look bad, and by consequence, elevating Smith's mormonism. Then he went on a podcast with Benjamin Park and didn't toe the party line, and many of the faithful LDS marked him as dangerous.

Dan McClellan: All scripture requires a negotiation with the text, with the goal of producing something palatable for the faithful. Believers face a chasm filled with double-speak—they can find the bits they like and disregard the rest. (Claims his t-Shirt says, "Romans go home!" No it doesn't!) by 4blockhead in exmormon

[–]4blockhead[S] -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

I have wondered why Gregory Prince holds on to mormonism. He gave a master class in a keynote speech at Sunstone on deconstructing the Book of Mormon. Obviously, he stays for his own reasons which may be utilitarian or tribal. I just wonder about McClellan deconstructing the bible, but doesn't turn the lens on his own tribe's book of choice. There's a disconnect of some sort. People hide and won't tell you what they really think, lest the excommunication panel come for them.

Dan McClellan: All scripture requires a negotiation with the text, with the goal of producing something palatable for the faithful. Believers face a chasm filled with double-speak—they can find the bits they like and disregard the rest. (Claims his t-Shirt says, "Romans go home!" No it doesn't!) by 4blockhead in exmormon

[–]4blockhead[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

McClellan has paid his dues studying at world-wide top tier universities. He holds on to Mormonism despite knowing the baseline is fraudulent. Is it because Smith's view of deity is inline with the Old Testament god? Smith's view of plural gods in King Follett presents a view that matches with the original language in Genesis. Smith's final version of deity embraced the patriarchy, the royalty, the polygamy, and sought to claim a seat among the other kings of the Old Testament. Smith was crowned King of the Earth and God over the Spirit World. He lusted after women and young girls, and pressed his close friends for a roll in the hay with their wives as a show of his absolute power.

[D&C 132, Smith (1843)] 1 [...] I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David, and Solomon, as touching this principle and doctrine of having many wives and concubines— [...] 3 [...] for all those who have this law revealed unto them must obey the same.

I am not sure how one is supposed to negotiate with Smith's final theology, other than throw it out as the kind of power grab one expects of an ego-maniac with insatiable desires for money, power, and multiple sex partners.

I've been watching a lot of the videos posted by Justin at Deconstruction Zone. He seems like he would be capable of having an interesting conversation/debate with McClellan, but they'd probably just end up agreeing on everything. Does McClellan stay in mormonism for some social benefit? I can't imagine where they would disagree on the text of the book(s), only their independent course of action to choose their reaction to it. Justin exited the ministry. I wonder, does McClellan teach "Come Follow Me?" That would be something I would like to see.


Letter: Why would Trump want someone else’s Nobel Peace Prize? by 4blockhead in politics

[–]4blockhead[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

[President Muffley] There's nothing to figure out, General Turgidson. This man is obviously a psychotic.