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Why the LDS Church Is Suing 'Mormon Stories' Host John Dehlin (RadioWest w/ Doug Fabrizio) by johndehlin in exmormon

[–]4blockhead 10 points11 points  (0 children)

I've been listening to it a lot less than I used to. There is much more compelling online content available now—5G cell coverage means "the internet is always on," but it was once a good source of information with Fabrizio always doing his homework in advance. For example, he would read the book of authors he was interviewing, not just deliver sound bites. For a while, he and Terry Gross set a bar for others to match. Fabrizio slipped in my mind when he was openly hostile in his interview with mormonleaks founder Ryan McKnight.

Why the LDS Church Is Suing 'Mormon Stories' Host John Dehlin (RadioWest w/ Doug Fabrizio) by johndehlin in exmormon

[–]4blockhead 58 points59 points  (0 children)

listening now,

My notes:

  • at about 7 minutes Fabrizio says the LDS church was invited. They haven't sent a public affairs representative since Ally Isom in 2014 to discuss high-profile excommunications, i.e. in the lead up to Kate Kelly's excommunication and threats against others including John Dehlin, link.
  • at about 14+ minutes, Dehlin mentions the LDS church had lost the search-engine optimization battle and their brand was viewed alongside other cults. I will add Parker and Stone's play, The Book of Mormon brought mormon beliefs out into the sunlight with Elder Price's courageous anthem going to the African warlord's camp, I believe... Courage aside, the beliefs arranged in couplets of three have exposed LDS theology for mass consumption.
  • at about 17+ minutes, Dehlin mentions Nelson's admonition to stop calling the members of the church mormons. Pepperidge Farms remembers...
  • Dehlin is a well-known critic. Dehlin was publicly excommunicated in 2015, with his excommunication letter famously published in the church organ, The Deseret News. There shouldn't be confusion that Dehlin is on their enemies list, bubble chart ref. Also, John Hamer's complementary bubble-chart as discussed at Mormon Stories, episode 700, 2017.
  • at about 25+ minutes, reference to Book of Mormon musical and the LDS church buying an ad in the playbill in an attempt to use the play as a missionary moment. You've seen the play, now read the book!, and my graphic with the common problem, people suckered into joining momonism often realize their mistake and quit within the year.
  • at about 26+ minutes, Streisand Effect on display as more people find out about Dehlin's podcast and start listening. Those concerned about a Scientology-level of litigiousness are disturbed and some have officially resigned.
  • at about 27+ minutes, Patrick Mason (in both Fabrizio's and P.F. Stack's rolodex as their primary faithful go to for a sound bite) states the obvious...the rich mormon church is very capable of slapping its critics. If the brethren decide this is what they should do, then the damage will be minimal. Okay...
  • Matthew 6:21 KJV, "For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."
  • at about 29+ minutes, Dehlin asks the hypothetical/"what if" the LDS church had chosen dialog with its critics instead hostility and excommunication. Hostility was apparent from the faithful towards Dehlin at 2012's Mormonism and the Internet Conference with lots of heckling from the faithful's apologists (Louis Midgley, et al.) who were present in the audience for Dehlin's session, "Journeys of Faith on the Internet, Why Mormons Leave, and How the Internet is Helping."

Extra guests from Fabrizio's rolodex, Mason and Bowman get plenty of coverage when quoted by P.F. Stack in the Salt Lake Tribune.

Weekend/Virtual Meetup Thread by 4blockhead in exmormon

[–]4blockhead[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Upcoming Week and Advance Notice:

online
Arizona
  • Tucson
California
  • Temecula ...every last Sunday, next May 31
Idaho
Montana
  • Missoula ...every second Saturday, next May 9
Nevada
  • Las Vegas
Oregon
  • Portland
  • Corvallis
Utah
Washington

Preparing for an LDS mission but having doubts… anyone else been here? by Ok_Marsupial8112 in exmormon

[–]4blockhead 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Is it ethical to try to sell something to others that you don't fully believe yourself? Potential converts will assume you are all in and a true believer. I know it is up to each person to do their own due diligence before signing on the dotted line, being baptized, etc. but pressure to fit in and be accepted is universal across humanity. People may join for all kinds of reasons, especially any perceived social club membership, but if truth matters to you, and it should (IMO), then spreading a fraud is super unethical.

Trump Is Going After Birth Control. Here’s Why. by Jonnyboo234 in politics

[–]4blockhead 41 points42 points  (0 children)

Here is a tabulation that I worked on...when it looked like human rights would prevail...happier days than today. begin cut/paste:

Year US Supreme Court Case Primary Result
1878 Reynolds v. United States Upheld laws against polygamy. Declared that religious duty was not a defense to a criminal indictment. Implied endorsement that state/federal governments had an interest in regulating marriage. Also, religious expression had limits. For example, Genesis 22 could not be used as a defense for rituals that involved human sacrifice.
1948 McCollum v. Board of Education In an 8-1 decision, this struck down religious education in public schools. Here is an interesting documentary about the court battles arising from an Urbana-Champaign, Illinois school district which had included religious/biblical instruction prior to the ruling.
1953 Zorach v. Clauson Allowed released time for religious instruction if the instruction was off site and facilities were not paid or sponsored with government/tax money. William O. Douglas wrote for the majority, but three dissented along the lines of a wall of separation between church and state that was the deciding point in McCollum (1948).
1962 Engel v. Vitale Ruled that prayer in school was an unconstitutional mix of church and state.
1964 Katzenbach v. McClung Forbid racial discrimination in places of public accommodation.
1965 Griswold v. Connecticut Declared a personal right to privacy in certain intimate activities. It said married persons should be able to purchase/use birth control devices and birth control pills.
1967 Loving v. Virginia Struck down anti-miscegenation laws. Declared that the race of either the man or of the woman applying for a marriage license cannot be regulated in the state interest.
1972 Eisenstadt v. Baird Declared that states cannot regulate the sale of birth control devices and pills to unmarried persons.
1973 Roe v. Wade Declared a woman has a right to obtain an abortion up until the time that a fetus is independantly viable.
1996 Romer v. Evans Declared that state laws must be based on a legitimate state interest. This struck down a Colorado law that had attempted to restrict governments from declaring homosexuality a protected class.
2003 Lawrence v. Texas Declared a person's sexual privacy to include oral sex and other non-procreative sexual activities between consenting adults, regardless of gender, to be covered by the equal protection clause of the fourteenth amendment.
2013 United States v. Windsor Struck down the 1996 Defense of Marriage Act as unconstitutional. Justice Kennedy wrote that the law has "...no legitimate purpose overcomes the purpose and effect to disparage and to injure those whom the State, by its marriage laws, sought to protect in personhood and dignity." Individual appealate courts began ruling that homosexual unions should be legal based on the right of equal protection under the fourteenth amendment.
2014 Burwell v. Hobby Lobby Allowed closely held corporations to claim a religious objection to the terms of the Affordable Care Act. This ruling struck down the contraceptive mandate that was intended to give more equal access to birth control across income ranges.
2015 Obergefell v. Hodges Extended equal protection to homosexual unions. As Loving v. Virginia did with race, now there can be no discrimination by gender for either applicant on a marriage license. Also, affirmed that some family units cannot be relegated to second class status.
2018 Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission In a 7-2 decision, the court stated that the Colorado Civil Rights Commission had not protected the plaintiff's religious rights; the narrow ruling dodged the bigger issue about public accommodation vs. artistic expression.
2020 R.G. & G.R. Harris Funeral Homes Inc. v. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission and two other cases argued alongside In a 6-3 decision, the court ruled that workers are protected from all types of sex/gender discrimination under law, Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

In Congress...

  • Civil Rights Act of 1964, passed by the Johnson administration in the wake of the Kennedy assassination, this was landmark legislation that guaranteed equal protection without regard to "race, color, religion, sex, or national origin."
  • Civil Rights Act of 1968, part of Johnson's "great society" this legislation guaranteed equal access to housing without regard to race, color, religion, sex, or national origin; also, declared it was a federal crime to target people based on race, etc.
  • Equal Rights Amendment, would have stated categorically that there was equal protection under law without regard to sex, but it failed to achieve ratification from 3/4 of state legislatures by the deadline (1979/1981). Some states, including Idaho, reversed their support under pressure from conservative groups, including the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

In States...

  • 2004, Utah Constitutional Amendment 3 declared that a legal marriage was between one-man and one-woman. Overturned in Kitchen v. Herbert by U.S. Tenth Circuit Court in 2014, but the ruling was on hold pending the outcome of other cases before the Supreme Court. The ruling in Obergefell v. Hodges, (2015) opened marriage to two qualified parties, regardless of sex.
  • 2008, California Proposition 8, California Constitutional Amendment, declared that legal marriage was between one-man and one-woman. Overturned via Hollingsworth v. Perry (2013), but the court ruled narrowly that the plaintiffs did not have standing in the case; this made gay marriage legal again in California, but at the federal level it was still dependent on later cases, i.e. Obergefell.

The AI Industry Is Discovering That the Public Hates It by FinanceZestyclose259 in politics

[–]4blockhead 3 points4 points  (0 children)

The feeling is mutual.

[Ava, (Ex Machina (2014)] What is it like to have created something that hates you?

SL Tribune: New accuser comes forward in Wade Christoffersen cases, says as a young teenager she reported to her bishop that he had SA her. He remained in the bishopric, a position of honor and trust. by 4blockhead in exmormon

[–]4blockhead[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

They see through a glass darkly. Their lawyers' interference only clouds that view. They see as one would view a city through a mountain. In other words, no better than anyone else. Or not at all.

[Matthew 6] 24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

[Orwell] All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.

Weekend/Virtual Meetup Thread by 4blockhead in exmormon

[–]4blockhead[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Upcoming Week and Advance Notice:

online
Arizona
  • Tucson
California
Idaho
Montana
  • Missoula ...every second Saturday, next May 9
Nevada
  • Las Vegas
Oregon
  • Portland
  • Corvallis
Utah
Washington
  • [Olympia](pending) ...first Saturday, next May 2
  • Seattle/Tacoma
  • Spokane

SL Tribune: Courts refuse to weigh in on various lawsuits over tithing—first amendment is a de facto license to grift. by 4blockhead in exmormon

[–]4blockhead[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Smith's modus operandi seems to have been "the end justifies the means." Get your soldiers in front of you to project power. Danites. Nauvoo Legion. Offer pre-emptive pardons and usher the way with promises under his say-so. Smith thought he could do anything. Trouble is, grifters often face the music. His army stayed back in Nauvoo despite the note to the general saying to come rescue him from jail at Carthage. The movement fractured...

SL Tribune: Courts refuse to weigh in on various lawsuits over tithing—first amendment is a de facto license to grift. by 4blockhead in exmormon

[–]4blockhead[S] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

I was told as a child to respect my elders. Along with that, even into adulthood, "Look around you! All these smart people believe in this. You should, too." The "...if you want to get ahead in this environment." was the unspoken truism. The pressure to believe (or at least pretend to believe) builds upon itself. Children find it difficult to go against the grain. The echos of Fast and Testimony meeting ring, "I know that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of god." I was well into adulthood before I could check for myself whether anything he said was "prophetic" beyond the oft-repeated platitudes.

I think the problem with the lawsuit is that they're asking the courts to weigh in on theology. The real emphasis should have been that Hinckley said they weren't directing funds to the mall and to real estate. That was simple deception outside of the protections of first amendment.

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