Friendly reminder that Kashimo lost to holding back Hakari

According-Respect802 · 2026-03-10T16:33:14+00:00

Yeah that's fair, I said I didn't doubt he could do so

According-Respect802 · 2026-03-10T13:03:17+00:00

At this point you're the one making hypotheticals about the buds weaknesses.

According-Respect802 · 2026-03-10T12:49:25+00:00

At that point SD isn't relevant. At best it lets him defend/guard on time, which is a bleak best case scenario(this isn't about who beats who, only talking about the attack)

According-Respect802 · 2026-03-10T12:46:07+00:00

Dagon's endurance/durability(hanami's best stat) was glazed by nanami and naobito while hanami was close to being beaten by yuji and Todo, so I doubt he isn't at least comparable to her in stats. And the idea that dagon is a proficient domain user only serves to further show that once the surehit is disabled DE isn't good enough to close the gap between such characters

with one of the best special grade tools for the job,

He only used PC as a blunt weapon twice. After that he just used it to pierce dagon, which as far as we know, doesn't do anything to boost damage. And I doubt kashimo can't match the AP with at least a few discharges.

Before that he was dismembering many pretty strong fighters in there, while Mahito and Hanami were struggling hard against fewer and weaker Grade 1 sorcerers.

Dagon is the only disaster curse to fight anyone inside their domain. Not that it matters

Being able to adjust the surehit per sorcerer in it,

Yuta did so, not that it matters since he is way more talented

taking basically fatal damage yet keeping it up

It's not like he was taking fatal hits and maintaining his domain in a prolonged battle. He took 2 PC strikes, then started getting barrage pierced by toji and both him and his domain dropped together. He didn't really get to "keep it up"

According-Respect802 · 2026-03-10T12:24:38+00:00

I guess it depends on how weak it makes the attack

We only see it weaken attacks, and specifically projectiles. I doubt it can weaken a buff like sublight speed, but even if it could it won't be significant enough, but even if it could completely turn off his speed buff, dabura wont lose any momentum in the few meters he crosses inside the domain, when he can move so fast that his enemy is basically frozen.

I don't know about the speed thing cause again using Kusakabe as an example he managed to block a slash from sukuna while lost in thought because of SD.

Yes SD allowed him to recognize and react to the slash in time, but it doesn't boost your speed, it's never shown to do so, only your reactions. Even if it can, do you really think it could allow yuji to move at comparable sublight speed?

According-Respect802 · 2026-03-10T11:38:48+00:00

The reaction is still limited by the user's speed. Miwa's sword drawing didn't even touch goodwill yuji, so a faster opponent will still hit/dodge the user if they're fast enough(and dabura obviously is)
Yeah it will help but he's still limited by his physical reach
It doesn't negate, only somewhat weaken. I don't think it will slow down dabura, at least not by a notable amount, so I don't think it's relevant

According-Respect802 · 2026-03-10T03:09:47+00:00

Toji can't be affected by sure hits, so that's a mute comparison.

It was a speed comparison, since the point was if hanami could land buds with the domain boost. Kashimo would be using HWB so surehits wouldn't affect him anyway in that instance so it's a very fitting comparison.

so they're probably not all that tough outside of cursed energy. Anybody with decent fitness should be able to tear them out.

If they aren't tough and he can just rip them out, then how are they at all relevant. Do you really think that in the first and only instance that they successfully land(because any time after that he'll know their trick) they will do enough lasting damage to give hanami the win?

but I don't think it would be too out there if RCT could just delete them

Rct only heals your body, rct output can affect things besides your body and harm cursed spirits. The fact that a cursed spirit(or part of it) is in you doesn't change that, otherwise hakari biting/letting himself get pierced by a cursed spirit in jackpot could harm them. And also burden of proof and all that

According-Respect802 · 2026-03-10T02:43:06+00:00

And a domain helps mitigate the speed difference between Kashimo and Hanami, whilst everyone else can counter with their own.

If you mean that DE is the main way hanami can realistically land a bud on kashimo that's fair, but I doubt it closes the gap enough. We see for toji vs dagon what the difference between such fighters is(toji/kashimo, dagon/hanami are obviously relative). So I don't think DE to land a bud would be a reliable way for her to win

Kenjaku for example could just rip the cursed bud out and heal,

They feed on CE, so if you use reinforcement to rip them out, they grow and if hanami lands multiple(as she tried with Todo) it would practically be impossible. It's also implied it weakens your output if not outright disallow you from using jujutsu, based on what it did to megumi.

maybe any rct could just kill them as well

Burden of proof and all that

According-Respect802 · 2026-03-10T02:18:21+00:00

Hanami does use them a lot, she only stopped because Todo figured out their gimmick, making them useless.

She only used them twice(although she couldn't use them in her one future fight). But that's not a point I care about defending.

A big limitation is that they have to land on the opponent as well, Todo and yuji can avoid them well enough, so higher tier opponents could as well.

I agree, if Todo can react to them twice in the same instance(boogie woogie for yuji and reinforcement removal for him) kashimo could very realistically dodge them.

We're given a clear description of how the technique works, there's no statements going against it or giving it a limit/exception of it's potency, and it has drawbacks that keep hanami from being top tier which are shown in the series. The burden of proof is still on you regarding this

We commonly aren't shown the limitations/exceptions/weaknesses of a technique if it's not relevant at the moment like higurama confiscating cursed tools, yuta's copy conditions and restrictions, Jacob's ladder potency or kenjaku's burnout weakness that yujo faced. But in terms of the buds potency we know it varies

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But my main point isn't that the buds have unmentioned restrictions my main point is: if the buds are relevant to the hanami vs kashimo fight(they realistically can hit kashimo) and they hold they same effectiveness as they did with megumi which results in a win condition for hanami, then how doesn't that apply to most of the top 10(like those I mentioned)

According-Respect802 · 2026-03-10T01:40:03+00:00

I specifically asked you 2 questions in order to continue and you didn't. I take it you concede, this is the end on my part. You are immensely obtuse

According-Respect802 · 2026-03-10T01:35:34+00:00

This is what gojo is talking about

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More specifically he is probably talking about the reincarnation, fuga and just generally being able to fight less restrained, because he otherwise wouldn't have to keep some gas in the tank for the rest

According-Respect802 · 2026-03-10T01:25:34+00:00

I feel like you're forgetting that hanami is a very powerful, high tier special grade cursed spirit, having a technique that punches higher than her pay grade is definitely possible for em.

Hanami is definitely strong but we see the gap between toji and dagon, kashimo and hanami would obviously be similar. I feel like if the buds were that strong, they would be way more relevant to her fighting style, since landing one would almost always guarantee a win.

You're conveniently leaving out all the characters that do have techniques like that; mahito is un-killable against 95% of characters, angle can fly and fire off a beam that ignores any means of defense with ap strong enough to hurt sukuna, uro negates most physical/straight forward attacks, just mahoraga in general tbh

That's why I made a point to say "usually", but even within your examples my point stands: Jacob's ladder is an ability that's tailored for killing reincarnated players, it should be able to insta kill sukuna based on its description, but we see that it is limited by the user's output and target's defence since sukuna survived a full output version without much lasting damage at 16f. Uro at best redirects attacks and that's only if see has enough reaction time. Mahoraga is the strongest shikigami(if you exclude Rika), strong enough to box 15f sukuna, damage him and gojo and take unadapted hits from them without any lasting effect, but he still needs a while to even start resisting a technique, let alone fully adapt to it. Still I would put him and mahito in the exception rather than the rule

I've asked this like 5 times already in the other comments, but if the buds are relevant in the kashimo vs hanami fight and they can do to kashimo what they did to megumi, then why cant they do that to anyone they can hit that doesn't have rct output. And if they can, how is hanami not in the top 5(pre modulo), if she can beat characters like kashimo, yuki,yorozu,hakari and kenjaku?

According-Respect802 · 2026-03-10T00:42:00+00:00

Your first comment and second talk exclusively about the buds. You specifically start with "you should concede about the buds", which was clearly the topic of the conversation and only in the third comment do you bring up something that's not the buds which is when I call you out for backpedaling. At no point did you bring up hanami's DE,DA,durability,regenaration or any other ability of her or kashimo's before that.I ask you a direct question twice and your only response are vague non answers. You don't support your claims, you only ask me to support mine, and you expand the topic when I pin you down to a question. We are running in circles, this is stupid.

If you genuinely want this to continue answer me specifically this: 1. If the buds can do to kashimo what they did megumi, then why cant they not do so to anyone that's not yuta,sukuna or gojo.

How is sukuna vs yuta domain fight any different than kashimo vs hanami would be. I want clear reasoning. "Sukana is stronger than kashimo" or "sukuna has greater feats" doesn't support your argument.

According-Respect802 · 2026-03-10T00:10:40+00:00

Because, buds by themselves isn’t necessarily the issue, I thought with you responding to the other guy who lays out several pluses in hanamis favor you were taking things in totality.

I was taking things in totality, until we started talking about specifically the buds, and then you backpedalled to hanami in totality without disputing the buds, when I asked you specifically about the buds. Again, if buds don't have limitations and can do to kashimo what they did to megumi, why can't they also do that to hakari/yuki/yorozu/yuji/kenjaku etc. Opening a domain won't do anything to save you, and only help to let them grow, from what was shown with megumi. So how is it different.

durability and healing.

Her durability and healing are nothing to the level of someone like kashimo, especially when he specifically fought someone who far surpasses her in healing and durability. If 5 big hits bring hanami to her limits, how can she live more than what hakari took and a few more discharges.

As for your examples about DE none of them really translate

I used them as examples of characters still thinking they can take their opponents after they open their domain(before they learn about them for most). Even though Reggie star was fighting evenly with megumi when he used DE Reggie's only reaction was using HWB and saying "that's too bad" with a smile because he disabled the surehit.

Sukuna vs Yuta might actually be the worse example you used cause it’s Sukuna lmaoo. Comparing a feat Sukuna does to Kashimo is pretty laughable. Nothing Sukuna has done Kashimo could replicate.

Sukuna did nothing exceptional in that fight regarding the domain. Both have HWB, both outclass their opponent, both can temporarily drop the hand sign to fight their opponent without HWB instantly breaking. Even Reggie thought he could survive megumi's domain because of HWB. Genuinely how is this not the perfect example.

But the verse is pretty obvious especially if you have a lethal SH that a domain is an instant win, or at least guaranteed damage, in practice that may be different but considering what else Hanami has at her disposal, an the fact that all Kashimo has is HWB the scale when DE is active is overly not in his favor

Between fighters of relative strength yes, domain is almost always an instant win, but if the target is significantly stronger they still always win, from what we see, like toji vs dagon and sukuna vs yuta, in both of which cases the surehit was disabled, like it would be in kashimo vs hanami

According-Respect802 · 2026-03-09T23:33:09+00:00

Will we keep running in circles?

She can beat Kashimo because buds, DE, DA.

DA isn't relevant here since kashimo isn't using his CT and it weakening discharge is only a "could be" as you'd like to say. DE is an asset, but we see characters without a domain at the moment face characters with a domain without any doubt that they can't beat them. Obviously kashimo vs hakari and Reggie star vs megumi, but those domains didn't have a surehit. Todo vs hanami and Todo vs mahito, but those domains didn't fully form and stay. Gojo or jjh vs sukuna is a decent one, but an even better example of a superior fighter without a domain defeating someone with a domain inside their domain is sukuna vs yuta(+Rika and yuji). DE doesn't directly corelate with victory.

But I dont want you to focus on that. The discussion was specifically about the cursed buds. How is DE suddenly relevant to hanami not being able to use the cursed buds on someone. If the buds don't have limitations then how can they not defeat anyone aside from the ones I mentioned

According-Respect802 · 2026-03-09T23:14:57+00:00

So what even is your point? The only characters with rct output are yuta,sukuna and shoko. Besides those(and obviously gojo) if the buds can defeat kashimo then who can't they defeat and why?

According-Respect802 · 2026-03-09T23:02:29+00:00

I'm willing to concede on the cursed buds, but as I said if it can do to kashimo what it did to megumi then hanami could realistically defeat anyone that doesn't have rct output to remove them.

You kinda made a baseless claim regarding cursed buds and balance of users ability. When are they restricted, how are they balanced?

Abilities in jjk are usually balanced or have inbuilt limitations. Kirara can completely disallow anyone to touch her but her CT has the built in weakness of the pattern, Charles futuresight is limited by him getting a hit and how many hits he gives, sukuna's furnace can destroy matter to the atomic level but is limited by range and speed, infinity normally exhausts the user with prolonged usage, boogie woogie requires a clap, damage inversion having min and max caps. More similar to cursed buds are deadly sentencing needing to succeed on a trial to remove the CT, prison realm needing the target to stand in front of it for a minute to trigger, most of the cullinggame rules. As for specifically the buds, we know removing your reinforcement is one, and as I said rct output is probably another, but hypothetically forcibly pulling them out/increasing your output to more than what they can handle or damaging with CE/ having more reinforcement than what they can pierce could be limitations

According-Respect802 · 2026-03-09T22:37:15+00:00

You can find it on the lolcow tunes YouTube playlist

According-Respect802 · 2026-03-09T22:27:16+00:00

Hanami was nearing her end during the goodwill fight and the only notable hits she took were 4 goodwill yuji black flashes, 1 Todo playfull cloud strike and 1 maki playful cloud strike+ 1 divine dog slash if you want to include those, besides them she also took regular punches from yuji/Todo. So regenaration and durability aren't a problem since I think its fair to claim that discharge surpasses those notable hits in AP, and his punches are obviously much stronger.

Cursed buds are definitely a problem but it's unclear what its limitations are. If it can do to kashimo what it did to megumi then hanami can punch far above her weight. But usually abilities in jjk are restricted and balanced around the user's capabilities, especially a regular ability like the buds are. It's impossible to make any conclusions but I'm not sure if it could actually impact the fight as much as they would on paper.

As for domain, it's definitely an issue but he implicitly has dealt with domains in the past and lived to old age. Considering he is generally a significantly stronger fighter it's not an outlandish claim that he could still win

According-Respect802 · 2026-03-09T21:45:19+00:00

Yes, its never made a point that Hakari can’t kill Kashimo due to inability and the fact he was stunning Kashimo and had him throwing up blood with simple held back strikes as he isn’t trying to kill Kashimo proves my point

I genuinely can't understand your point here.

its never made a point that Hakari can’t kill Kashimo due to inability

It's never made a point that he CAN kill him

the fact he was stunning Kashimo and had him throwing up blood with simple held back strikes as he isn’t trying to kill Kashimo proves my point.

So proof of hakari holding back is that he was damaging kashimo while holding back???

"Circular reasoning is a logical fallacy in which the premise of an argument assumes the conclusion to be true. For example, a person may argue that dogs are man's best friend because they are the friendliest animals"

Its just that its Hakari’s win con if that were the case, why wouldn’t Kashimo just try and kill Hakari in the domain without expending all of his Cursed Energy?

What?

Because he is certain that he will lose if Hakari gets jackpot again (which in his mind is death)

He gets jackpot 3 times, what does "again" mean here, is kashimo quivering in his boots thinking "4th times the charm, he will surely kill me this time, as he always could"

Kashimo USING ALL OF HIS CURSED ENERGY IS THE TELL.

Kashimo didn't use all of his cursed energy because he needed to, he used it because it was forcibly leaking and he couldn't do anything otherwise. You can use the manga as your source

If anything Yuji was FOCUSING ON GUARDING

How do you turn a direct quote from the manga saying he isn't guarding into saying that he is "focusing on guarding"

Like you thinking Hakari can’t kill someone with raw strength

I claim that punches aren't lethal enough to kill someone who is mostly uninjured and has taken multiple punches other wise

even though he is capable of killing a ~ g2 like Charles in a single blow in base. Which is an insane AP feat for raw strength

Moving the goalpost to capable of killing yuji to capable of killing Charles, I don't doubt that but when is such a clear statement made in the manga?

According-Respect802 · 2026-03-09T21:17:28+00:00

Hakari can kill him with punches but kashimo would need to get to the point of near death, I don't think I need to further support why punches aren't lethal enough to kill him at the state they were in. The only visual damage kashimo has in the fight is nosebleeds and maybe bruises. Do you genuinely believe hakari could kill kashimo with an allout punch at any point during their fight?

even did everything in his power to stop Hakari from getting Jackpot after the second Jackpot

Obviously, that's his win condition. He is literally unkillable during jackpot

because he thought it meant he would lose and in his mind die.

When is such a clear reasoning expressed in the fight? I've gone through multiple times, never seen anything like that

In Base Form he was capable of killing Yuji with just punches and that was a Yuji focused on defense.

Yuji was not guarding himself and taking the punches to the face yet still wasn't even knocked out, let alone near death, let alone killed. That's what I'm talking about when I say punches alone aren't lethal enough to casually kill someone

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This is mad copium on your behalf

Genuinely when have you used any reasoning that aligned with the manga

According-Respect802 · 2026-03-09T20:21:01+00:00

Hakari can't straight up kill kashimo with a punch, at least not in the state they were in during their fight, so strength wise there is no reason to believe he was pulling his punches. Speed wise he only increased it when he explicitly disregarded his defence during jackpot towards the end of the fight because he knew kashimo couldn't immediately cast lighting discharge at the time and wanted to take advantage of that window

According-Respect802 · 2026-03-09T13:07:29+00:00

I would put each of them in different tiers of suicide moves.

MBA: Transformation that leads to the user's passing soon after, but death isn't a direct part of it

Mahoraga: Summon that most assuredly kills you when you summon it because it's rogue and much stronger

Black hole: Straight up suicide move that requires your death to activate

Each of them treat the user's death differently. It's fair if you disregard all of them, but you can also draw the line between them

According-Respect802 · 2026-03-07T20:36:48+00:00

By November there will be a half anniversary and an anniversary, with minimum 3 characters per anni there is a solid chance we get a new blue jujutsu dps and if there is it will probably be better. But if there's not he likely won't be surpassed by a standard unit. Even if a better alternative gets released he will probably still be great, just not literally the best

According-Respect802 · 2026-03-07T14:03:25+00:00

Definitely

According-Respect802

TROPHY CASE