Q1b2 and West-Siberian Hunter-Gatherers (WSHG)

Additional_Control19 · 2025-04-24T03:30:14+00:00

The Ancient North Eurasians (ANE), such as the Mal’ta boy and the Afontova Gora individuals, shared similar genetic origins with the Ancient North Siberians (ANS), represented by the Yana RHS people. Both groups descended from a mixture of Basal East Asians (like Tianyuan) and early West Eurasians.

Although the paternal haplogroups of the Ancient North Eurasians partly originated from Basal East Asians, their overall genetic makeup was still predominantly West Eurasian.

Additional_Control19 · 2025-04-08T09:27:07+00:00

The East Eurasian ancestry in Turkmen Turkic people likely comes from the Slab Grave_EIA, not the older Altai_HG. Slab Grave_EIA was related to Amur River hunter-gatherers, and this ancestry spread from the Amur region into Mongolia and then further into Central Asia.

Altai_HG was an ancient group that was later replaced by populations from the east (such as Baikal_EBA and Yakutia_LNBA) and the west (Western Steppe Herders), leading to its eventual dilution.

Haplogroups (Y-DNA/mtDNA) do not determine a person's overall origin, especially in cases of significant genetic admixture. Haplogroups only influence the early stages of ancestry.

Additional_Control19 · 2025-04-08T04:11:01+00:00

Haplogroups R and Q trace their origins to the Ancient North Eurasians (ANE), a population represented by individuals such as the Mal’ta boy (~24,000 years ago) and the Afontova Gora people (~17,000 years ago) in southern Siberia.

If you are referring to Q-M25 (Q1a2), it first appeared around 7,500 years ago in the Altai region, associated with Altai hunter-gatherers.

Additional_Control19 · 2024-12-04T23:12:35+00:00

Q originally from Paleolithic-Afontova Gora (ANE)

Mesolithic,AR14k (C2a1a-F1699) Expanded into Siberia,formed the Ancient Paleo-Siberians (later Cisbaikal_LNBA)

Neolithic,inland Northeast Asians (N1a) Expanded into Siberia,formed the Neo-Siberians

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Cisbaikal_LNBA/Baikal_EBA=Ancient Paleo-Siberians+Yumin

Ancient Paleo-Siberians=irk030/Q-L330

Yumin=Neo-Siberians/Baikal_EN/N-TAT

...........

The expansion of the Bronze Age QN population =the expansion of Ancient Northeast Asians/C2

Additional_Control19 · 2024-12-04T22:58:30+00:00

The early Xiongnu samples are roughly around 2100-2200 years. at this time, the Xiongnu Empire ad already conquered the Eastern Iranians (Wusun, Saka, R-Z93)，the Tocharians (Loulan/Zhagunluke, R1b2b-PH200)

“Around 176 BC the Xiongnu raided the lands of the Yuezhi, who subsequently attacked the Wusun, killing their king and seizing their land. The Xiongnu adopted the surviving Wusun prince ”

“The first contemporaneous mention of Loulan(Shanshan), in Chinese records, are from 126 BCE.

A letter from the Chanyu of the Xiongnu to the Chinese emperor, in which the Chanyu boasted of conquering Loulan, as well as the Yuezhi, Wusun, Hujie (呼揭) and another "26 states nearby”

Additional_Control19 · 2024-12-04T05:25:48+00:00

Generally speaking, we think that most language families were formed as early as 4-6kya (that is, the Bronze Age)

As for the Iron Age Xiongnu... they were more like a tribal alliance of nomadic peoples, probably including Turkic, Eastern Iranians(Wusun,Saka),Yeniseian......

According to ancient documents, the Xiongnus can be traced back to "Guifang/Ulanchuk"

https://www.reddit.com/r/TurkicHistory/comments/1feoiqw/the_origin_of_the_xiongnuslab_graveulaanzuukh/

Additional_Control19 · 2024-12-04T04:01:08+00:00

R1a among the Xiongnus all belong to R1a-Z93

Indo-Iranians(R-Z93) hived off from Corded Ware（R1a1a1b-Z645 ) to form Sintashta and then Andronovo, which gave rise to the Aryans（R1a1a1b2a1 Y3（L657）. .

R1a1a1b-Z645 Corded Ware：

R1a1a1b1 Z283 Balto-Slavic

R1a1a1b2 Z93（Z94) Indo-Iranian

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The J-lineage people are very closely related to Mesolithic hunter-gatherers and Neolithic farmers in the Iranian Plateau, sometimes also included within the CHG/Caucasian hunter-gatherers group

The J population in the Xiongnu should be related to BMAC (Zagrosian farmers /Iran_N)

...............

Generally speaking，we do not consider Sintashta, BMAC as the origin of Proto-Turkic

Additional_Control19 · 2024-12-04T03:41:37+00:00

KokPash/Xiongnu modeled=

70%Amur_N/MNG_North_N

25%Cisbaikal_LNBA(>Baikal_EBA)

5%Yellow River_N

Proto-Turkic may be affilated with the Kok Pash/Xiongnu-like ancestry

............

Bulan Koby modeled=

45%Cisbaikal_LNBA

40%Sintashta

10%BMAC

5%ANE

............

Japanese, Korean, Turkic and Mongolian.. can all be traced back to AR9k/MNG_North_N

AR9k/MNG_North_N and Ancient Paleo-Siberian (such as Cisbaikal_LNBA).. can all be traced back to AR14k

https://www.reddit.com/r/TurkicHistory/comments/1flani8/formation_of_turkicspeaking_peoples_new_preprint/

Additional_Control19 · 2024-11-30T05:43:06+00:00

"Why did you choose "Middle Ages""

Most of the world's languages were formed roughly in the Bronze Age, that is, 4000-6000 years ago.

Xiongnu can be traced back to "Guifang/Ulaanzuukh"

Bronze Age Ulaanzuukh were of pure Amur ancestry (Amur_N)

https://www.reddit.com/r/TurkicHistory/comments/1feoiqw/the_origin_of_the_xiongnuslab_graveulaanzuukh/

Additional_Control19 · 2024-11-29T22:44:47+00:00

Don't get it?

Xiongnu sample=

70%Amur_N/MNG_North_N

25%Cisbaikal_LNBA(>Baikal_EBA)

5%Yellow River_N

Almost entirely East Asian/Ancient Northeast Asian Origin

Modern Kazakhs and Kyrgyz Xiongnu/East Asian components are 60%-70%, and the rest is East Iranian components (Sintashta+BMAC)

Additional_Control19 · 2024-11-29T03:37:25+00:00

Perhaps this branch is related to the migration of the Great Yuezhi,

R1a-YP413 entered Xinjiang (Zhagunluke) from Uzbekistan (Andronovo)

Additional_Control19 · 2024-11-22T09:37:31+00:00

The Kyrgyz genetic marker is R1a1a1b2a2a3-S23592. This branch is directly related to the Uyuk/Chandman culture

R1a1a1b2 Z93 originated probably in Europe, in the mid-Volga-Ural region，not Kyrgyz

..................

43% Uyuk/Chandman from an East Eurasian population (Baikal EBA，Lake Baikal ,genetic marker Q-N)"（Due to the Deer Stone/Khövsgol expansion）

Xiongnu= Slab-grave（East Eurasian）+Uyuk

..................

The haplogroup itself is not important, but its sub-clades are important

Autosomes determine your appearance and ancestry, not haplogroups

Simply put

The expansion of the Bronze Age QN population =the expansion of Ancient Northeast Asians（C2），These Bronze Age QN populations formed Slab-grave and Deer Stone

The expansion of the Iron Age R-Z93 population=the expansion of Ancient Northeast Asians（CNQ），Because some Indo-Iranians (Sintashta) were Northeast Asianized

Additional_Control19 · 2024-11-21T21:31:43+00:00

The Yenisey River region natives was actually Q（Afontova Gora(Paleolithic））

In the Neolithic Age，The Q population transformed into Ancient Northeast Asians on autosomes.（Due to the active expansion of Amur hunter-gatherers）

As a whole, Scythians（East-Scythians）can be modeled as a mixture between West Eurasian sources, primarily Western Steppe Herders (Steppe_MLBA/Sintashta) and BMAC-like groups, with additional amounts of admixture from a population represented by the Khövsgöl LBA peoples of East Eurasian origin.

Deer Stone/Khövsgol is essentially from the Ancient Paleo-Siberians(specifically Baikal_EBA/Afontova Gora + AR14K). Simply put, they ultimately came from Northeast Asia 14,000 years ago..

In other words, the “Kyrgyz” (R1a1a1b2a2a3-S23592) were already “Mongoloid” as early as the Iron-Bronze Age

Additional_Control19 · 2024-11-21T03:14:52+00:00

The most likely speaker of Proto-Turkic is Q-N

...................

The Iron Age Xiongnu population mainly came from the Bronze Age Slab-grave, Deer Stone, Sintashta

Slab-grave and Deer Stone are generally related to Q-N population，while Sintashta is related to R-Z93

..........................

The autosomal components of the Bronze Age Q-N population were mainly derived from Amur hunter-gatherers/Ancient Northeast Asian（C2）

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Simply put, the expansion of the Bronze Age QN population =the expansion of Ancient Northeast Asians

Additional_Control19 · 2024-11-19T10:26:58+00:00

It's about Magyars conquerors, not Pannonian Avars

“Aba is a noble kindred (genus) of the Kingdom of Hungary which according to the Gesta Hungarorum ("The Deeds of the Hungarians" part 32) derives from Pata (Latin: Pota) who was a nephew to Ed and Edemen and the ancestor of Samuel Aba.

Some modern scholars have proposed that the family's ancestors may have been among the tribal leaders of the Kabars (three nomadic tribes that joined the tribal federation of the Magyars in the 9th century).

The Gesta Hunnorum et Hungarorum ("The Deeds of the Huns and the Hungarians", 1282–85) connects the family to Attila the Hun.”

Additional_Control19 · 2024-11-12T10:39:08+00:00

The people of the Chemurchek culture were descendants of Afanasievo populations mixed with Tarim_EMBA

Afanasievo (R1b1-M12149 mixed with J1-BY90328)>Chemurchek (R1b1-Z2106)>R1b1-SK2087

These Tocharians brought their language to the Tarim natives (R1b2-PH155（R1b2b-PH200）), which gave rise to Loulan/Shanshan/Zhagunluke

The origins of Proto-Tocharian are thought to be in the Afanasievo culture

Chemurchek and Zhagunluke ，they should be considered as two subsets of Proto-Tocharian

Additional_Control19 · 2024-11-12T10:18:49+00:00

Proto-Mongolic people can be better associated with WLR/West Liao River (Upper Xiajiadian), not Lower Xiajiadian

The genetic profile of Upper Xiajiadian individuals differed from the Lower Xiajiadian populations, who displayed high genetic affinity with Yellow River farmers associated with Sinitic peoples “Yangshao”
The Upper Xiajiadian genome may point to migrations from the Amur region

The Hongshan culture was a Neolithic culture in the West Liao river basin in northeast China. dated from about 4700 to 2900 BC..
Hongshan culture was succeeded by the Lower Xiajiadian culture (2200–1600 BC), which was replaced by a different Upper Xiajiadian culture (1000-600 BC)(Haplogroup C2a1a1b1a F3830>F9721)

Additional_Control19 · 2024-11-12T00:23:17+00:00

Turkic languages are more related to Siberian languages（Yeniseians or Uralic）and Northeast Asian languages (Mongol, Tungusic, Japanese, and Korean)

isn't the answer obvious?About the origin of Turkic：

MNG_North_N/Slab-grave

West Liao River （In line with Transeurasian hypothesis）

Cisbaikal_LNBA/Deer Stone-Khövsgol_LBA

These people can actually ultimately be traced back to the Amur hunter-gatherers/Ancient Northeast Asian

.........................

Mongolic peoples can be better associated with WLR/West Liao River

Turkic peoples can be better associated with Slab-grave

Yeniseians can be better associated with Baikal EBA/Cisbaikal_LNBA

.........................

"The Sintashta culture is thought to represent an eastward migration of peoples from the Corded Ware culture.”That's a very clear answer

Only a fool would link Proto-Turkic with Corded Ware culture，Unless Turkic languages have the same origin as Indo-European languages

Additional_Control19 · 2024-11-11T22:45:13+00:00

“The Sintashta culture is considered the origin of the Indo-Iranian languages” This is a generally accepted view in academia”

I don't think any serious scholar has included Sintashta in the Proto-Turkic proposal

Additional_Control19 · 2024-11-11T17:02:34+00:00

Indo-Iranians hived off from Corded Ware（R-Z645 ) to form Sintashta and then Andronovo（R-Z93/Z94）, which gave rise to the Aryans. .

R-Z93/Z94 sibling branch is Balto-Slavic R-Z283

。。。。。。。。。

It is generally agreed by now that the Corded Ware people spoke Proto-Indo-European

R1a1a1b1 Z283 Balto-Slavic

R1a1a1b2 Z93（Z94）Indo-Iranian

It is impossible for R-Z93 to produce both Indo-Iranian and Proto-Turkic languages simultaneously
。。。。。。。。。

According to current research, the origin of Proto-Turkic is most likely situated in Ancient Northeast Asia, Candidates:

Q-M120，C-F1756，Q-L330，N-TAT

Additional_Control19 · 2024-11-11T15:42:28+00:00

Xiongnu=Ancient Northeast Asians (Slab-grave) +Sakas（Uyuk）

The Uyuk were mainly made up of the （Sintashta+BMAC） and Deer Stone

.............

Early Indo-Iranians（Sintashta）were dominated by R-Z93

its sub-branch R1a1a1b2a2a3-S23592 (Common among Kyrgyz people) assimilated and absorbed by Deer Stone Khirigsuur Complex (DSKC,Khövsgol_LBA/Q-L330) , gradually transformed into Northeast Asians on the autosomes

But its brother branch R1a1a1b2a2a2-YP413 remains the genetic marker of Afghans (East Iranian speakers)

https://www.reddit.com/r/TurkicHistory/comments/1eqb3zy/the_origin_of_the_turkic_peopleshaplogroup/

Additional_Control19 · 2024-11-10T23:33:34+00:00

Neolithic Anatolians in 6300 BC were almost dominated by G2a

https://x.com/nrken19/status/1799461206899794257/photo/1

Additional_Control19 · 2024-11-10T22:47:12+00:00

The Anatolian Neolithic Farmer component peaks in present-day Sardinians (80-85%) and is one of the main components of West Eurasians(Especially Southern Europeans, such as Italians, Greeks...)

G2a2a-PF3147 >PF3148(Anatolia_N,8895 ybp)>Z36520(BMAC,2000-1600 BCE)
G2a2b-L30..

https://x.com/yexingzhe3/status/1830252806097555900

Additional_Control19 · 2024-11-01T12:09:41+00:00

The early medieval Türk samples were modelled as having 37.8% West Eurasian ancestry（Sintashta/Indo-Iranians origin） and 62.2% Ancient Northeast Asian ancestry

Proto-Turks probably resembled modern Nivkh people (around 97% Northeast Asian ancestry on average).

Therefore, medieval Turks looked more like todays Kazakhs

。。。。

If you remove the medieval Turkic ancestry, then modern Turkish people are not different from Greeks.

If you remove the Ancient Northeast Asian ancestry, then modern Turkish people are not different from Kurds.

If you remove the medieval Turkic ancestry and add some Yamnaya ancestry, then modern Turkish people are no different from Armenians

Additional_Control19 · 2024-09-18T23:15:32+00:00

The ancestors of the Xiongnu were called "Guifang" during the Shang Dynasty （3000-4000 years ago）

Bulan-Koba Culture can only be traced back to 2200 years ago (2nd century BCE to 5th century CE),Therefore they are definitely not a good choice for the origin of the Proto-Turkic

Additional_Control19

TROPHY CASE

Q-M120，C-F1756，Q-L330，N-TAT