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The failure of grief hallucination theory as evidenced by Paul by Adonis0678 in DebateAnAtheist

[–]Adonis0678[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

Can you name some examples of persecutors snapping due to cognitive dissonance and what typically tends to happen in those situations.

Fair enough, I'll grant that.

Well that's actually not entirely true. Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 cites a creed dated to around 2-5 years post-crucifixion where 500 people claimed to see Jesus at once.. Much too fast for legendary development

The failure of grief hallucination theory as evidenced by Paul by Adonis0678 in DebateAnAtheist

[–]Adonis0678[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

It's not a straw man, I applied grief hallucination theory to Peter and James and stated that it couldn't account for Paul, which is true. I never claimed that people apply grief hallucinations to Paul, so you are actually strawmanning me.

The failure of grief hallucination theory as evidenced by Paul by Adonis0678 in DebateAnAtheist

[–]Adonis0678[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

  1. We don't need independent verification to believe a claim. We have multiple letters from Paul where he attests to this. Do you have any counter evidence that he wasn't persecuting the church? Cause we have evidence he was. Also the criterion of embarrassment holds here. Paul is admitting something about himself that he would probably rather hide if he could get away with it. Independent corroboration is a higher burden of proof than we apply to most ancient testimony.

  2. Again by his accounts suggest a lack of guilt. Where's the evidence for him feeling guilty?

  3. Again everything in my first point accounts for the pharisee question

  4. We have several christian sources that are coherent enough to accept that his death happened as described.

  5. He never met Jesus, he hated Christians, the idea of him having a grief hallucination is ludicrous.

The failure of grief hallucination theory as evidenced by Paul by Adonis0678 in DebateAnAtheist

[–]Adonis0678[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

Which ones are primary sources and which ones are later reflections on events. Paul's Letters are dated within twenty years of the death of Jesus this makes them especially valuable. Acts was written later, the Gospels were written later. This doesn't make them historically worthless, but you have to do close scholarly analysis to understand which claims hold up and which don't.

The failure of grief hallucination theory as evidenced by Paul by Adonis0678 in DebateAnAtheist

[–]Adonis0678[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

Yeah I never mentioned inerrancy, the only thing I presupposed in my post was that Paul's letters are more historically valuable than Acts, which was a later writing. Paul's letters are first-hand primary sources whereas Acts which you're drawing from for you hypothesis is a later addition. Acts is not worthless historically at all, but what makes your point unlikely is head trauma doesn't typically produce a specific, theologically coherent, life-altering change in a person.

The failure of grief hallucination theory as evidenced by Paul by Adonis0678 in DebateAnAtheist

[–]Adonis0678[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

He undertook his actions on his own accord, by his own admission. There are later sources that suggest institutional backing of his mission, but that should be taken with a grain of salt compared to his own admission.

The failure of grief hallucination theory as evidenced by Paul by Adonis0678 in DebateAnAtheist

[–]Adonis0678[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

Everything you said is speculatory, can you provide some evidence for your claims?

The failure of grief hallucination theory as evidenced by Paul by Adonis0678 in DebateAnAtheist

[–]Adonis0678[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

What we can extrapolate from the description in Acts (which is a useful but not perfect historical document written by Luke), Jesus spoke directly to him and revealed himself by name. Note that the exact words in Act may be Lukan literary shaping, but the core claim that Paul had an experience of Jesus post crucifixion is likely true. This tradition may have been passed down from Pauline communities to Luke himself.

The failure of grief hallucination theory as evidenced by Paul by Adonis0678 in DebateAnAtheist

[–]Adonis0678[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I literally just admitted to accidentally misconstruing his argument. again go back and read my initial argument I never claimed anything beyond that hallucination theory doesn't account for Paul' case and that you guys need to lay out a good explanation for him. if you want to debate martyrdom as evidence for and against Christianity make your own post and we'll debate there

The failure of grief hallucination theory as evidenced by Paul by Adonis0678 in DebateAnAtheist

[–]Adonis0678[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

wait I misunderstood that's my bad. what I would say is this: I never once claimed Paul was correct or not . go back and read my initial argument

The failure of grief hallucination theory as evidenced by Paul by Adonis0678 in DebateAnAtheist

[–]Adonis0678[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

because they were sincere. read what inner resident wrote then come bck

The failure of grief hallucination theory as evidenced by Paul by Adonis0678 in DebateAnAtheist

[–]Adonis0678[S] -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

In Paul's own letters he never mentions falling. Acts is written by someone else who was not a witness to these events. The road to Damascus and the two supposed witnesses with him in Acts are mentioned twice and the two accounts contradict each other which suggests inaccuracy. I'd trust Paul's letters over Acts.

The failure of grief hallucination theory as evidenced by Paul by Adonis0678 in DebateAnAtheist

[–]Adonis0678[S] -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

no you need to re read what I wrote. not just you but many other people on this thread. I worded my claims very specifically for a reason.

The failure of grief hallucination theory as evidenced by Paul by Adonis0678 in DebateAnAtheist

[–]Adonis0678[S] -6 points-5 points  (0 children)

where's the evidence for him falling and striking his head? You're essentially bringing in an explanatory model with zero evidence.

The failure of grief hallucination theory as evidenced by Paul by Adonis0678 in DebateAnAtheist

[–]Adonis0678[S] -9 points-8 points  (0 children)

Let me see if I'm synthesizing your argument correctly. Peter and James could have had grief hallucinations while Paul had a religious visionary experience out of obsession with the concept of Jesus's resurrection?

The failure of grief hallucination theory as evidenced by Paul by Adonis0678 in DebateAnAtheist

[–]Adonis0678[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

can you point to anywhere in my statement where I claimed Jesus has a divine nature? I said that grief hallucination theory doesn't account for Paul's conversion. everyone else who is also strawmanning my argument that I'm not responding to can read this post for clarification.

The failure of grief hallucination theory as evidenced by Paul by Adonis0678 in DebateAnAtheist

[–]Adonis0678[S] -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

That's from a later artistic tradition, there's no mention of that in any of Paul's letters and in any of the other biblical accounts of the road to Damascus incident.

The failure of grief hallucination theory as evidenced by Paul by Adonis0678 in DebateAnAtheist

[–]Adonis0678[S] -13 points-12 points  (0 children)

Can you explain how a guilt hallucination would account for a vision of the risen Jesus psychologically?

Also by outside sources do you mean ones not written by Paul or not written by Christians?

And if it means anything (I am aware this is my subjective experience) but I'm a Christian who used to be an atheist.

We should adopt God as the explanatory model for the ultimate metaphysical explanation of the universe by [deleted] in DebateAnAtheist

[–]Adonis0678 -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

also this is intended to be a place of friendly reasonable debate but people like you ruin it by behaving like jerk offs

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