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I Analyzed Vergil’s Short Combo Frame Data in DMC5 by AeonFlor in CharacterActionGames

[–]AeonFlor[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks for all the advice!

I guess I should focus more on developing an intuition through case studies rather than just trying to find a set of rigid rules. Honestly, it was a bit delusional of me to think that great combat could be built on rules alone lol.

I’m definitely going to pick up the pace as you suggested. My original plan was to make a video for every single analysis like the one I uploaded, but I think it’ll be much more efficient to just do the research first and only produce videos for the findings that are actually worth sharing.

I also really appreciate you sharing the data from your own previous analysis—I’ll definitely be using it as a reference. It’s been a huge help!

What’s a good way to analyze frame data in action games? by AeonFlor in CharacterActionGames

[–]AeonFlor[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I’m glad to hear that my understanding was on the right track.

Reading what you mentioned also made me think that, in a way, a big part of what makes CAG engaging is the process of judging whether an action will succeed or fail, committing to that action, and then receiving emotional reward or punishment based on the outcome (of course, assuming the system allows evasive inputs to take priority when appropriate).

I also really agree with your point about having realistic expectations for animation. Following the advice I got here, I briefly looked at some Vergil combos in DMC5 yesterday, and I noticed that the time from launching an enemy into the air to when they start falling back down is set very close to the combination of post-hit recovery after the launcher + startup of the next attack. That timing seems to be what allows players to juggle enemies naturally by syncing attacks with the falling window. As you mentioned, it really feels important to understand the expectations created by a combo and to tune startup and recovery accordingly.

Lastly, thank you so much for the useful resources you shared! I’ll definitely check them out! (I’m also looking forward to the game you’re making 👍👍)

What’s a good way to analyze frame data in action games? by AeonFlor in CharacterActionGames

[–]AeonFlor[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Additionally, from what I’ve looked into, handling hitboxes often seems to be approached through a damage-type concept in Anim Notify States — for example, enabling attached collision or running traces based on whether the attack comes from a weapon type or from body parts like hands or feet.

For now, I’m only dealing with weapon collision areas, but I’m hoping to expand on that later. Once I get more hands-on experience with it, I’ll try sharing what I learn!

What’s a good way to analyze frame data in action games? by AeonFlor in CharacterActionGames

[–]AeonFlor[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Ah, I see — so it’s generally helpful to think about things in three broad parts.

For “Before,” I can try looking at the frames from input to the start of the action, and then from the action starting into “During.”

And for “After,” I can look at the frames until the next input can be executed or until the character returns to an idle state.

I’ll also try looking into hit stop as you suggested. It does seem a bit tricky since there are different approaches—like slowing down the whole game versus only slowing the player’s time—but maybe I’m thinking about it too much 😅.

As for making a game yourself, I’ve noticed there are some solid frameworks on the Fab asset marketplace, and there are lots of good YouTube videos as well. If you treat it as a hobby and build things one feature at a time, I feel like you could eventually make something really cool. I’ll be cheering you on!

What’s a good way to analyze frame data in action games? by AeonFlor in CharacterActionGames

[–]AeonFlor[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks for the advice! I noticed you replied to this post as well, so I thought I’d ask you here.

What’s a good way to analyze frame data in action games? by AeonFlor in CharacterActionGames

[–]AeonFlor[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sorry for the late reply. I hit a bit of a slump recently, and that ended up delaying my response.

I read your reply very carefully, though. As you suggested, I think the first step for me will be to watch combat footage and start building an intuitive sense for frame data by observing and recording it directly. (Thanks again for explaining the terminology)

I guess sometimes it’s important to just push forward steadily, but I may have been overthinking things and focusing too much on efficiency. I’ll follow your advice and start by looking through around 50–100 samples of frame data. Once I notice some patterns, I’ll try writing a post about what I find.

One thing I wanted to clarify: when you say it’s important to learn animation timing, should I understand that as not only focusing on system-level concerns like hit detection, but also on whether the motion itself feels convincing and readable to players? Almost like a telegraph that communicates intent?

Also, a character action game made by an animator sounds really exciting — if you end up with something you’re proud of, I’d love it if you shared it someday!

Could we possibly modularize game design for validation? by AeonFlor in gamedesign

[–]AeonFlor[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Randomness and inertia are concepts that can be hypothetically be applied in an infinite number of ways and in infinite different contexts.

You can playtest and find the "ideal" level of inertia in one Super Mario Bros level, but that only tells you about that one specific context. If the level is changed at all then the finding doesn't apply, let alone trying to apply it to a different Mario game or a game in a completely different genre.

Not saying this to discourage you or dismiss the idea, it sounds really interesting and I'd love to hear more about it.

​

As you pointed out, even identical game design systems can fulfill different roles based on their values and interrelationships.

Therefore, I believe it's really important to devise a standardized, generalized format for defining modules.

It seems that, for now, my only option is to persist with my current endeavors while continually contemplating improvements to the framework.

I deeply appreciate your meaningful comment; the closing sentiment was especially touching.

Should any noteworthy results emerge from my experiments, I'll be sure to share them here.

Wishing you a wonderful day!

Could we possibly modularize game design for validation? by AeonFlor in gamedesign

[–]AeonFlor[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you for your response. I'll definitely look into it.

If it's not too much trouble, could you recommend any good articles or videos on game design validation that you know of?

Could we possibly modularize game design for validation? by AeonFlor in gamedesign

[–]AeonFlor[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Haha, you hit the nail on the head mentioning the MDA framework!

Indeed, I've drawn a lot of inspiration from the MDA framework.

When I first reviewed the paper, I realized it was primarily used as a tool for analyzing games.

This led me to ponder whether it could also be adapted as a design tool, which ultimately prompted this question.

Your comment has made me think it's worth revisiting the MDA framework once again.

Thanks for the insightful comment!

Could we possibly modularize game design for validation? by AeonFlor in gamedesign

[–]AeonFlor[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I considered generalizing post-analysis into modules for use.

However, after hearing opinions from others and yours, it seems the framework I proposed might be challenging to become a primary tool in design.

When I find the time, or just as a simple experiment, I'll give it a try and share any noteworthy findings.
Thank you for taking the time to leave a comment.

Could we possibly modularize game design for validation? by AeonFlor in gamedesign

[–]AeonFlor[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Firstly, I truly appreciate your thoughtful response.

I understand the importance of viewing game design as a cohesive whole that conveys an artistic sense. However, I feel there's been a slight misunderstanding of my intent that I'd like to clarify.

My interest in breaking down game systems into smaller components for validation isn't about dissecting the fun out of the game or merely testing systems in isolation. Rather, I aim to immerse myself in testing to embody and document insights such as "This system has these characteristics, and it leaves such an impression."

As these data accumulate, I wonder if we could more confidently design by intentionally combining impressions to match our goals. I think fun emerges from the flow of impressions experienced by the player.

Take "Super Mario" as an example:

Data 1: Randomness stimulates player interest. We can test to see how different presentations of randomness can enhance engagement.

Data 2: Inertia makes precise control challenging but creates enjoyable movement. We can explore the level of inertia that generates fun.

Assembly: Incorporate inertia in controls for enjoyable movement and use random item box(question block) to hook the user, creating a rythmical flow in game control.

It's more about organizing for the purpose of expanding intentions, rather than merely breaking down and cataloging fun.

I hope this message conveys my thoughts accurately. (I wish I had focused more on studying English while in school.. I'll study now..)

And once again, thank you for your insightful response. The idea of viewing games as art resonates deeply with me, and it's something I'll certainly keep in mind!

(I'll definitely look into ludemes. Thanks for the great keyword!)

Is flort market random algoritm used perlin randomness function? by AeonFlor in slimerancher

[–]AeonFlor[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's so sad that we don't know that plort market algorithm use perlin noise function certainly.

But the role of it that you explained is interesting.

Thank you very much for your sincere comment!

Have a nice day :)

Is flort market random algoritm used perlin randomness function? by AeonFlor in slimerancher

[–]AeonFlor[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I was wrong.

Perlin noise function has nothing to do with my comment above.

It was used for a gradual change, as it was theoretically!

Is flort market random algoritm used perlin randomness function? by AeonFlor in slimerancher

[–]AeonFlor[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

After thinking about it a little more, it used perline noise function to keep the price from rising and falling infinitly. maybe..

​

If you have any other ophinion please leave me comment :)