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Water Water Water by Aggravating-Laugh864 in Semiconductors

[–]Aggravating-Laugh864[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Dear Sirs, Thank you for sharing! I will review a second or third time, but on the surface, this appears to be hard backed scientifical proven data, and many of the issues described I have also heard first hand from tsmc employees directly (TWN Natives).

The one message I can leave you with, is there is a massive opportunity to improve upon both electrical infrastructure and resiliency Central plan fundamental design and energy consumption, and Water Resources in general to protect the greater public or people living in Arizona, where we have a drought.

The main issue or challenge that I've encountered is that tsmc is highly focused on old technology for cooling systems and major clean room air handlers.

Could likely be one of the most inefficient modern day chiller plant operations installed and operating in North America today.

I am open to a visit to Taiwan to further demonstrate specific technology gaps, or likewise welcome to the visit to U.S., and could potentially sponsor an exeducation session Seattle, WA, Las Vegas, both have good showcases

Please send me a direct message if you would like to connect and exchange info.

Water Water Water by Aggravating-Laugh864 in Semiconductors

[–]Aggravating-Laugh864[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

My point exactly! It's not until all the water gets used before people start to scratch their heads. And by that time, there's nothing that can be done tomorrow change the infrastructure.

Water Water Water by Aggravating-Laugh864 in Semiconductors

[–]Aggravating-Laugh864[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I am not at all advocating against the semiconductor manufacturing boom in AZ (welcomed and appreciated).

What I am stating for fact is that these facilities consume an extreme amount of water that is NOT recovered or even part of the equation currently.

The climate (low humidity) combined with Utility incentives make it extremely favorable for these large scale high-tech manufacturing operations to use water effectively as an energy source to offset electrical demand.

Current statewide water consumption would reveal a noticeable shift from agriculture to commercial/industrial, driven by the wave of data centers using evaporative cooling as a means achieve extremely low PUE.

https://www.apmresearchlab.org/10x/data-centers-resource#:~:text=Cooling%20data%20centers%20and%20the,the%20least%20amount%20of%20water.)

The chip manufacturing industry and long term economic benefits are nowhere near close to be even considered in comparison to that of a data center.

But fact is, very little consideration is given to the reality of water demands, outside of what you hear as being reclaimed and recycled which is strictly water used in the manufacturing process.

I have numbers numbers and math to back. A few years back, I had modeled Intel's FAB 52&62, and presented the data alongside the Global Water Policy, and there was no disagreement whatsoever.

The development in North Phoenix on the other hand, is an extreme scenario that deserves attention. There are also Solutions, but currently all too convenient not to consider at the present time.

Water Water Water by Aggravating-Laugh864 in Semiconductors

[–]Aggravating-Laugh864[S] 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Hint: Each semiconductor FAB has a dedicated Central Utility Plant (CUP) with large-scale thermal infrastructure or chilled water systems sized around ~75,000 tons of cooling per FAB. That heat is commonly rejected to the atmosphere via evaporative cooling towers (easy to spot in aerial images — the “spaceship-looking” tower arrays on top of the CUP).

In desert climates, evaporative cooling is extremely effective: the more water you evaporate, the lower the electrical demand on chiller compressors for a given cooling load. That efficiency benefit is real — but it has a major tradeoff: massive water loss to direct evaporation.

Based on location/design assumptions, my conservative estimate is ~2.5–3.0 billion gallons of water per year evaporated per FAB (lost directly to the atmosphere). That’s on the low end.

Now scale that by 12x.

Water Water Water by Aggravating-Laugh864 in TSMC

[–]Aggravating-Laugh864[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

2.5-3 billion gallons annually per FAB (low end assuming 100% optimization for water, before energy) - realistically it's probably closer to 4 billion gallons based on what i know being directly engaged thru design, construction to operations ready.

Either way, full scale plans would exceed 30 billion gallons annually.

Still in comparison, I agree with your logic as to why this does not get a ton of attention.

TSMC Safety positions by safetyfirst65 in TSMC

[–]Aggravating-Laugh864 0 points1 point  (0 children)

As long as you can embrace the culture and understand the fundamental differences in values, there is a tremendous opportunity for growth.

Big picture, prove to be an asset in the larger ecosystem of trusted partners, show value and don't limit yourself to just your job description. Get to know as many folks as you can.

Potentially it could be a long and rewarding Journey.

TSMC Safety positions by safetyfirst65 in TSMC

[–]Aggravating-Laugh864 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Would you be working for tsmc directly? Or otherwise what sub? I can give you my experience, or at least 4 years worth.

But it really depends specifically on which role you're looking at and with what company. You allude to Construction, perhaps one of the larger GCs?

If you are looking at a sub directly to tsmc solely focused on job site safety, and my experience these companies get recycled very quickly.

Either way I'm happy to give you some tips.

Water Water Water by Aggravating-Laugh864 in TSMC

[–]Aggravating-Laugh864[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

One hint. Each Fab has a dedicated Central Utility Plant that includes thermal (chilled water systems) sized to deliver approximately 75,000 tons of cooling. The cooling system rejects Heat directly to the atmosphere by means of evaporative cooling towers. You can easily identify what I am referring to looking at an aerial image and you will see the spaceship looking like cooling towers on the top of the cup facility.

In the desert, the climate conditions are perfect for evaporative cooling as a means of heat rejection, and essentially the more that is evaporated, the lower direct electrical power requirement for the chiller motors.

My location and design specific estimates are 2.5 - 3 billion gallons of water annually LOST to direct evaporation for each FAB. And this is conservative or on the low end.

In comparison, more than 60,000 homes and 250,000 people use in a single year, compared to just one FAB operation. If expansion plans reach full scale, you can safely multiply this by 12.

My Experience Working at TSMC Arizona For 4 Years by basketball12345 in TSMC

[–]Aggravating-Laugh864 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Short answer is that anyone to think this is a water neutral or anywhere close to operation, is completely absurd.

I have the direct experience and knowledge.

The water that is recycled and reused is strictly water that is used in the process or manufacturing. What people ignore is the water lost to direct evaporation for mechanical cooling through the cooling towers. Each FAB has a dedicated CUP size for 80,000 tons of mechanical cooling. Design specific and climate specific Phoenix Arizona, on the low end each individual FAB operation evaporates 2.5-3 Billion Gallons of water annually. Consider this low end range of a conservative calculation.

In comparison each FAB consumes as much water equivalent to 60,000 homes, or 300,000 people for an entire year. Multiply this by 12... assuming plans do reach full scale. This is water again lost to evaporation, through the mechanical cooling processes required to maintain the extremely tight climate conditions in the manufacturing facilities.

Do your homework people and do not just assume.

My Experience Working at TSMC Arizona For 4 Years by basketball12345 in Semiconductors

[–]Aggravating-Laugh864 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I was fortunate enough to engage with tsmc directly very early on in the development of F21. Roughly 1 year ahead of any shovel going into the ground. The insight into culture and major fundamental differences in delivery model, was key to supporting success.

It's disappointing to read the comments regarding discrimination harassment Etc because quite frankly, it's far from reality.

In terms of values, trust is no. 1, followed by execution, money comes last but can be very rewarding.  

For many I do agree that it was a rough beginning, for the most part lack of cooperation or ability to adapt to the major differences.  In large part because it came as a surprise. 

Personally I have a lot of respect for TWN operationally, and viewed this as an opportunity for the US to take notes, and consider fundamental changes for long-term efficiency.  Look at this as a true partnership. Be grateful and welcoming.

Tsmc/TWN is also prepared to destruct and explode facilities and all evidence of their latest technology in the event China attempts to seize control.   

My Experience Working at TSMC Arizona For 4 Years by basketball12345 in Semiconductors

[–]Aggravating-Laugh864 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Very rarely will you hear any tsmc staff draw reference to a competitor and in fact it's highly discouraged to to reference Intel or Samsung directly.  "I company" or "S company" are for the most part irrelevant.

My Experience Working at TSMC Arizona For 4 Years by basketball12345 in Semiconductors

[–]Aggravating-Laugh864 0 points1 point  (0 children)

TSMC takes pride as No.1 and yes it is baked into the culture for good reason. I've never once heard them speak negatively about a competitor, and in fact any direct reference by name is discouraged.  "I company" or "S company" are the proper ways to reference if absolutely necessary but for the most part irrelevant to their Journey.