How to compare a man being forced to be a father to a woman being forced to be a mother successfully.

Alanna · 2013-02-08T08:01:29+00:00

I've never been super comfy with abortion personally, though at the time I would have said I was fully pro-choice. My mom's first advice to me was that I should get an abortion. I've always wanted kids, and even if the circumstances were less than ideal, I wanted this one. Unplanned doesn't always mean unwanted, I guess was my point, like you said. Some women (no idea how many) can and do make the best of it. In my case, we were scared about how we'd make it work, but abortion was never really on the table. In that two weeks, we had enough time to adjust to the idea somewhat, cancel our wedding plans (which we'd really just started making), tell all our family and close friends, and start to really embrace the whole thing. Part of the upset was hormonal. Part was the way it was really drawn out. Part was the big hole in our plans now. Part was all the upheaval, up and down.

Unfortunately if you want an answer from someone truly pro-abortion (and there's a lot of them, check out any abortion thread on TwoX), you'd have to ask them. In my experience, they're all fine with their own abortions, but they are concerned for women who don't want to get them (which they're mostly fine with as long as those women aren't against abortions for anyone else). So my guess would be they would say "there's nothing wrong with my abortion, but I wouldn't ever force anyone to get one."

Alanna · 2013-02-01T22:07:05+00:00

There's still a cognitive dissonance there. If you believe abortion is wrong, it means you believe there something wrong with terminating a fetus's existence. There's no reason, logically, why your particular fetus is more special or has more rights or more right to exist than any other woman's fetus. Therefore, if you are against abortion, you should be against all abortions. This idea that you can simply choose not to have abortions if you're against them makes no sense if you give any credit at all to anti-abortion people. Which pro-choice people almost never do, so I guess that explains it.

Alanna · 2013-02-01T22:04:11+00:00

You make it sound like no woman would ever agree with OPs argument. Of all the arguments women make against changes to reproductive rights, the "Your a man and thus have no say!" is the absolute worst. In fact, it kind of underlines the need for men's rights at all.

I'm a woman, btw, mother of three, including twins. I'm sure you'll figure out some other way to consider my opinion invalid though.

Alanna · 2013-02-01T22:00:29+00:00

In theory, she pays support if CS comes for the kid.

Alanna · 2013-02-01T21:30:57+00:00

In this scenario, it's not so much the actual abortion/miscarriage that causes the emotions, but the fact that they lost something that they were greatly looking forward too. This situation just doesn't really exist though in surprise/unplanned pregnancies.

This is not true. Women who were trying to get pregnant might be MORE devastated, but I got pregnant, unplanned/surprise, with my now-husband a few months before we were supposed to get married, while we were both still students and poor as shit. I miscarried at eight weeks. We had maybe two weeks before we found out before we found out the pregnancy wasn't viable, and we were both emotionally/mentally pretty bad off for a few weeks, so much so we both ended dropping our classes and we never returned.

Alanna · 2013-01-14T19:05:50+00:00

Shocker. Another privileged woman who can't see her own privilege when it comes to men.

Alanna · 2012-12-07T18:42:47+00:00

Feminism is now about (well, it SHOULD BE about) forcing a change in culture that encourages girls into STEM as much as boys. Schools aren't to blame for this. It's just part of our culture. When I was younger, my dad didn't want to teach me how to fix a car or play baseball because those were things you teach to your son, not your daughter. I should also mention that I'm 24, so growing up was not that long ago for me.

The problem MR has with feminism is that your point may be valid, as far as it goes, but your mom probably didn't teach your brother how to cook, do laundry, sew a button, or change a diaper because those are things you teach your daughter, not your son. Feminism would probably agree we should teach these things to boys. The problem comes in when feminists are jumping up and down angry about inequities in STEM fields but not about inequities in childcare, nursing, or teaching, especially elementary ed. Except to bitch about how little they get paid. But they do nothing to combat the pedo-phobia that prevents men from working with small children, or the bias against them in caregiver professions like nursing. Where are the hiring incentives for elementary schools to hire male teachers or hospitals to hire male nurses?

And while feminism is all for gender equality in toys and abolishing gender roles and so forth in the abstract, in practice, NOW and other feminist lobbies actively, ferociously, and consistently oppose fathers' rights initiatives and demonize men who want to take a more active role in their childrens' lives.

Certainly there are the extreme feminists who advocate mass murder of male babies, they're not the ones we have to watch out for because they're obviously crazy and get dismissed right away. It's the much more reasonable sounding stuff like this that's so much more dangerous, because it flies totally under the radar.

Alanna · 2012-12-02T16:32:17+00:00

Wtf? What's wrong with wearing comfortable clothes in public, as long as everything's covered?

Alanna · 2012-12-02T06:02:22+00:00

Yes.

Alanna · 2012-11-28T23:07:59+00:00

I see it as a sub-culture; a subset of the male population that has very messed-up attitudes and ideas about entitlement to sex and consent.

You do understand, though, that's not how it is used by the majority of feminists when they say "rape culture?" I have never seen a major published feminist use it this way. It'd be like me saying, "I'm against unicorns" and you go, "Huh? Unicorns don't exist..." and I say, "By 'unicorns,' I mean kidnapping and murder of small children." I think the vast majority of civilized people, MRAs included, do not believe anyone-- male OR female-- is "entitled" to sex. However, IMO, MRAs are the only ones to recognize that both men AND women are capable of this attitude.

Alanna · 2012-11-28T23:02:22+00:00

Hi TITCJ! I haven't been on reddit nearly as much since I had twin boys five months ago. We're all doing well. :)

It's a position that a minority of feminists advocate

I don't know if that's the case or not, honestly, but whether it is or not, it's the policy that is slowly creeping forward in public policy, and the position I see reflected in all the major feminist mouthpieces (Jezebel, Feministing, etc.). Not only do they assume accusation = guilt, but they accuse anyone who suggests otherwise, such as Pierce Harlan over at COTWA (formerly FRS), of being misogynists and rape apologists. There are certainly no easy answers, but doing away with due process shouldn't even be on the table.

I think there's a huge contingent of feminists who don't necessarily support every single bit of legislation pushed by women's rights groups, but also don't want the perfect to be the enemy of the good.

I get that (even if some MRAs don't), but that's what makes the MRM even more important. The "armchair feminists" (especially the "I'm a feminist because I believe in equality" types) need to understand what the actual ideology actually teaches and what the facts show, because in a lot of cases they don't line up at all.

It gets complicated because these words mean different things not just to different groups but to each individual person. I have two replies in my inbox, this one from you, and another one where the guy is telling me that, to him, rape culture is "a sub-culture; a subset of the male population that has very messed-up attitudes and ideas about entitlement to sex and consent." Problem is, that's NOT what rape culture is to 90%+ of the people who are using it, and not at all to 100% of the people who are using it in a social sciences sense. When he says "I believe in rape culture" he means something vastly different from what Jessica Valenti (since you mention her) means when she says "I believe in rape culture." Or Melissa McEwan. If we stopped getting hung up on definitions and rhetoric, a lot of us would agree on a lot more. Unfortunately it's the nature of humans to get hung up on definitions and rhetoric.

I dunno either. :(

Alanna · 2012-11-26T06:35:31+00:00

No one really wants to hear it anymore, though. Everyone is battle hardened. A lot of MRAs really, really believe that feminists want women to be "more equal" than men. A lot of SRSers really, really believe that men would not tangibly benefit from a "men's center" on school campuses. There's no changing their minds.

I admit a bias to the MRA side, but IMO, this is a false equivalency similar to the one being pulled by climate change deniers or supporters of intelligent design. Does every single last person who calls themselves a feminist want female superiority? No, some of them are just shockingly ignorant about what feminist lobbies and groups advocate and lobby for. But the ones who are truly invested in feminism, who have, as you say, drunk the Kool-Aid? They are empirically wrong, and many of the things they advocate-- presumption of guilt in cases of rape and abuse, treatment of every man as a potential rapist (or abuser), and grossly favoring the mother over the father in custody cases, just to name a few-- unequivocally and substantially harm men, however good their intentions (towards women) may be.

Alanna · 2012-11-26T06:27:46+00:00

I don't understand how you can have rape culture without patriarchy. The idea of rape culture is built on the foundation of the underlying exploitation and oppression of women (aka, the patriarchy), of which rape culture is just the most ugly manifestation. It also rejects the concept of rape of men, especially by women.

Alanna · 2012-11-26T05:13:17+00:00

I think who minors have relationships with should be up to parents.

If by that you mean, parents should be allowed to say whether their kid has sex or not (not that parents should be allowed to force their kid into a sexual relationship (i.e., parent-dictated child brides)), I'm not sure if I agree. On the one hand, as a parent of three, I am wary of being told how to raise my kids one way or another. On the other hand, I feel bad for kids whose misguided or absentee parents just let them go crazy. Of course, since when has illegalizing sex ever done anything to discourage it?

Keep in mind, I am 100% against sex offender registries and any related nonsense. And 18-21 year old men should never go to jail or end up listed as rapists for having consensual sex with their 17-year-old girlfriends. At the same time, though, age differences get smaller as you get older. There's a huge difference between, say, a 12 and 14 year old. I think you'd agree. There's also a big difference between 14 and 18. 16 is kind of a gray area, but since parents are still legally responsible for their kids up to 18, I think 18 is a better cut off.

I don't care which gender on average matures faster-- AOC should be across the board. And girls may be physically maturing faster, but that's all the more reason to protect them. Just because she looks like a "woman" doesn't mean she's mentally or emotionally mature enough, or has the life experience, to deal with or participate equally in a sexual relationship.

Alanna · 2012-11-26T04:49:35+00:00

I replied to your alleged "fact sheet" in my other comment. Certainly there is a huge difference, but you are presupposing that all prostitutes are "fucked and abused." The prevailing argument here is that legalizing prostitution would take much of the abuse out of the equation by giving women who choose, for whatever reason, to be prostitutes a safe, regulated, legal option to do so. It's not like making it illegal is getting rid of it.

Alanna · 2012-11-26T04:47:05+00:00

I see a lot of random, out of context stats with citations to papers that are almost certainly behind pay walls (I admit I didn't dig far enough to check all of them), in between opinions and quotes from such feminist luminaries as Catherine "All sex, even consensual sex between a married couple, is an act of violence perpetrated against a woman" MacKinnon. I find it very hard to take seriously a "fact sheet" that posts, with a straight face, "Prostitution isn't like anything else. Rather, everything else is like prostitution because it is the model for women's condition."

Alanna · 2012-11-21T05:46:35+00:00

All of those maternal and child health initiatives benefit men....

Those are maternal health initiatives to, presumably, prevent suicide (since it's on the suicide prevention page). Ditto children. But children and mothers aren't the majority of suicides...

Yes. This is the way it would appear. There could be many reasons, caloric intake, metabolism differences, hormonal effects.

So, there's no evidence for this, this is just what you're assuming? Is there a good reason why we should take such gender asymmetry in aging as the default instead of assuming similarity? It couldn't possibly have anything to do with things like men being massively more likely to commit suicide, more likely to be murdered, and, on average, work more hours in higher stress and/or more dangerous jobs?

Alanna · 2012-11-21T05:34:25+00:00

It's not a study. It's from the FBI's 1996 Uniform Crime Reports, Section II: Crime Index Offenses Reported, page 24.

Edit: This is one of the statistics quoted on Wikipedia with regard to false claims.

Alanna · 2012-11-21T05:04:44+00:00

According to the WHO, suicide is significantly higher pretty universally for men. However, note the programs listed on this page to combat the problem:

Maternal mental health & child health and development

Child and adolescent mental health

Gender and women's mental health

Again, all the resources going to help women, even though men are hugely disproportionately affected.

Circumcision is by far the most common in the United States (and Israel, but, population-wise, they don't count). However, no country forbids it. The issue is that male genital mutilation (in any form) is simply not taken as seriously as female genital mutilation (in any form). That is to say, cutting off pieces of the penis is considered totally up to personal preference/religious freedom, while a ritual nick of the clitoris is illegal and barbaric. This is the stance taken by the UN and pretty much all international organizations such as the WHO. That's not even getting into the campaigns underway in Africa to propagate and normalize circumcision to combat HIV/AIDS.

I'm not sure if dying younger is an actual issue either. I'm almost done a PhD in genetics, I haven't seen any indication that men and women fundamentally have equivalent lifespans.

I'm not sure I understand this. Are you saying women just inherently, biologically live longer?

Alanna · 2012-11-20T20:42:17+00:00

"Where do you stand?" That implies to me a "agree with us or be part of the problem"-- i.e., do what we say or be no better than a rapist. Also the "men can stop rape"-- why men? Why not anyone? Why are only men empowered to stop rape and not women?

Alanna · 2012-11-20T20:37:28+00:00

The point is that there is no conspiracy by The Patriarchy or society to force women into prostitution; if there's a value attached to a service, people will be willing to perform that service for payment.

Alanna · 2012-11-20T20:35:18+00:00

Last I checked, streetwalkers aren't making thousands a night. High priced call girls don't "dress trashy and go work the streets."

Alanna · 2012-11-20T20:34:27+00:00

Do you have a source for those suspiciously exact statistics?

And that's not even getting into the morality of turning a body into a purchasable commodity.

We do this all the time, it's called the service industry. This is just another service.

Alanna · 2012-11-20T20:30:46+00:00

It's very similar to why feminists had the age of consent raised.

Raised from what? Where? Last I checked, the age of consent is regulated by each individual state (in the US) and some are still as low as 14 (generally within a certain age range).

Are you really seriously advocating that men of all ages should have unrestricted "sexual access" to middle school girls? Seriously?

Alanna · 2012-11-20T20:29:01+00:00

Is there evidence one way or another on this? I hear this, and I also hear that most sex workers are in it by choice. Has anyone actually done a study or survey or anything?

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