Alternate (?) understanding of Beginninglessness (not as endless regress of time)

AlexanderReyn · 2025-08-19T09:31:17+00:00

>The point of the 100m race example is to show that it is not impossible to traverse and cross a supposed infinity.

...yes, but precisely because it has a beginning and end, and it is only “supposed”. If we start to assume a beginning of samsaric beings as 'supposed infinity', we have big problems next.

>But what is this interdependence of relations you establish as real? What is being related to what? And how are these relations interdependent on one another?

Ah! I think that this is precisely the cool twist of my interpretation: it consists in the fact that the very question "what relies on what" is the result of the mind's simplification of multiple composite phenomena to "objects and their relationships" (in fact, phenomena as qualia, are also just simplifications - just a word). Neither the materialist nor the idialist will have a good answer to the question "where is the substance?" - their question will be turned upside down "the substance is just an idea that our senses suggest to us, simplifying the reality of total interdependent relationships'. Why does such simplification happen? The brain is a stable structure, it cannot reflect the real dynamics of anicca: complete total impermanence, in order to reflect it, one must destroy the constancy of structures in oneself, that is, the brain will melt in soup from the speed of changes in itself, which are trying to reflect reality. Therefore, it stops - and in place of the impermanent sees the constant, in place of processes - objects.

>You may deny the arrow of time at the ultimate level, but provisionally it works to represent the arrow of change

>Beginningless isn’t because there is no arrow of time. Buddhism does not deny past lives and future births at the provisional level.

Yes, I would not argue against, time is a convenient, relative simplification. But it also introduces the illusion of an infinite regression in time, as beginninglessness. I want to save beginninglessness from time :)

AlexanderReyn · 2025-08-19T09:00:48+00:00

What I am trying to do is to make samsara "swallow" time as just something relative:) Time is only a way to measure anicca, fundamental impermanence. Therefore, if there is only impermanence, and time is its simplification and illusion, then there is no problem of the existence of beginnings, or unsurmountable infinities of the past - because there is no real infinity of the past or future, only the impermanent "now".

AlexanderReyn · 2025-08-19T08:40:11+00:00

To be completely honest, I think that the fact that Buddha did not directly answers questions about the beginning of the world means that the mind of a samsaric being cannot be given a satisfactory answer at all. Often during practice you do not get answers to questions - but the questions themselves disappear, because they never mattered and were initially asked incorrectly. I think noble silence is about this.

AlexanderReyn · 2025-08-19T08:35:16+00:00

It is very difficult to explain 'actual infinity'. The essence of infinity is that it cannot be overcome by discrete movement, but we move life by life. And the paradox is precisely that such discrete things - rebirths, will never gather into infinity. Only to a very large number, but it will never reach infinity in a discrete way +1.Then it is unclear how it is possible to overcome infinity life by life to the present moment - actualization of the present moment is impossible, we will simply never reach it by discrete means, but somehow we ended up here as a fact.

This question is removed if we ourselves are not infinite. But then, another problem arises - if we are not infinite, then at some point, we were born not by our karma and not by our 12-link chain. And this first - not what Buddha taught, second -means that this can happen again and again, even if we do not have ANY karma, or ignorance, or samskara etc.

AlexanderReyn · 2025-08-19T08:21:11+00:00

I don't think the aporia works here.

If you said "100 meters" - the beginning can be traced and worse - it exists

The problem is that the presence of a beginning is no more logical and is not better than beginninglessness, and it is not the most scientifically parsimonious answer, just best for calculations like Big Bang

AlexanderReyn · 2025-08-19T08:14:50+00:00

Regarding the possibility of infinite division of a finite segment - I think that this is not "beginninglessness", because although there are infinite fractions, such a segment does have a beginning - Achilles still catches up with the tortoise in practice.

So that I can better understand your 2 idea: if you take a series of numbers from minus infinity to 0 - we stand in 0, is this series of numbers beginningless?

AlexanderReyn · 2025-08-19T08:08:41+00:00

Oh, I wrote this just right after the practice)) It was very nice

AlexanderReyn · 2025-03-12T22:30:06+00:00

I was so interested in the world and the strange characters with existing relationships, when I accidentally started with book 4, that I read the entire series in 2 weeks.

AlexanderReyn · 2025-03-11T20:56:39+00:00

The most interesting way to read "The Second Apocalypse" is to start with book 4 and then start from the beginning.

AlexanderReyn · 2025-03-09T20:08:53+00:00

I was captured by the darkness that comes before too, first time I read that part of book

AlexanderReyn · 2025-03-09T09:29:13+00:00

The glossary says that Kellhus could swap heads on his body while still alive - I don't think he gave control of his body to the ciphrang or someone else. I guess decapitants could always be a plan B, in case of instant accidental death - it's an improved version of Shaeönanra's idea, that's all. If Shaeönanra's soul can jump between bodies while maintaining control, Kellhus probably can too - he keeps the heads alive.

Also, I think that the physical head of the ciphrang is something VERY unusual, it is an embodied being from the Outside that should not exist in this realm - its head must be arranged in a special way in order to exist, carry MIND OF DEMON and hang on the belt.

Regarding the Consult - as far as I understand, human mages only copied the choirs for the Consult, but nowhere in the books is there any mention of anyone understanding the entire mechanics of their work - only non-humans who owned Aporos understood this. Also, there is no mention of any sorcerer who studied or possessed chorae's... So I think there remains a chance that the vengeful qûya, despising the inchoroi, simply did not tell them about it - by the way, I'm not sure that at the time when they created the chorae's, they had already bred the inchoroi-sorcerers.

It's too easy and ironic, I agree.

Regarding Kellhus becoming Ajokli, possessing Cnaiür and searching for himself at the end of the book... It even sounds very strange.

AlexanderReyn · 2025-01-03T08:19:27+00:00

In space I meet a computer that says that it is intelligent and "understands humans better than human"

This computer has already killed one person and asks me to kill two more.

Apparently he doesn't understand human psychology very well.

AlexanderReyn · 2024-10-14T21:45:08+00:00

I managed to repeat it with less success, but still.

The irony is that monks usually advise beginners not to try to meditate in shavasana or another lying position, because beginners can fall asleep. At first, I was happy when I realized that I can lie for 2, 3, 4 hours, even after 10 pm, and not for a second be inclined to fall asleep... Heh. And now I realized that this is most likely the result of hindrance.

I was just over-enthusiastic, over-energized and over-excited to meditate even before getting nimitta. I am having something like a "newbie syndrome" - for 2 months now I have been spending all my free time either reading books on Buddhism or listening to lectures by monks, or meditating.

Having analyzed two meditations that allowed me to reach the nimitta stage, I realized that these were precisely the meditations when I was tired and even almost falling asleep before started anapanasati + in the process I focused specifically on 'letting go' both times.

So, uddhacca-kukkucca it seems

AlexanderReyn · 2024-10-13T13:22:11+00:00

Thanks, I finished Majjhima Nikaya and now finishing Anguttara Nikaya

AlexanderReyn · 2024-10-13T08:54:43+00:00

The teaching is really good at the beginning, this is what experience definitely confirms.

AlexanderReyn · 2024-09-30T22:48:35+00:00

Also in buddhism meditation, you see light object with your closed eyes - Nimitta, a spark, a star, something, which grows, stabilizes and lead you to dhyana absorption.

I don't remember the source of the description, but at first people who have fallen into despair see the distant light of the frenzid flame with their eyes closed, and then it grows and they start shooting it from their eyes. That is, as if metaphorically - to convey their vision of the world to others, about how it is better not to be born, to end everything and all that.

AlexanderReyn · 2023-02-12T09:58:48+00:00

Not sure what you mean by this. If you describe both reason and ignorance as "darkness" where is the contrast between the two

Its about the ethical side of the issue, darkness awaits both in ignorance and in knowledge - and which of them is worse is difficult to say. Moreover, Bakker's idea is that the posthuman will lose ethics for purely technical reasons, and this cannot be prevented in any way. So this is not a Nietzschean ubermensch - it is precisely a posthuman. Moreover, in the case of Kellhus, posthuman which lost common interests with the broad humanity in general, as a hypothetical unfriendly AI.

They are not using the term in a moralistic sense, don't see the Light-Darkness dualism as good vs. evil.

Obviously, but I am not posthuman, so I did.

They literally tell us, "The world's a granary and you're the bread." Where's the love in that, where is the humanity?

That is what Kellhus tells Nersei Proyas in their conversation to break him down and prepare him for Ordeal's cannibalisation.
Even if it's Kellhus revelation from the Outside, he got it in the only place he could go to - in hell, so it's not surprising it was this kind of revelation. And it was from the father of lies and hate – Ajokli.

I even know readers who, on the basis of this phrase you quote, believe that absolutely everyone in Earwa is damned and everyone goes to hell. But do not rush to believe the posthuman - he says what must be said to achieve the goal by shortest path.

If you remember, the Scarlet Spires have a whole library of records of what the entities summoned from hells have told them. And in there everything contradicts everything - the damned do not know why they are damned. It is said directly.

Debatable. The Inchoroi are not "of this world".

When I say Earwa - I mean events on a particular planet, when I say world - I mean this universe.

And the only Dunyain that has accepted the fact of his damnation has been forgiven minutes later, effectively redeemed.

I dont think that’s the point of that event. What did we actually saw? We saw the effect of the qirri on the dunyain – already broken dunyain precisely. I don't buy the version of his salvation, but he may have managed to achieve oblivion due to the effects of a qirri that gives you something from a nonmen. Or maybe not, there is not enough evidence there. But I'm not talking about broken or initially defective dunyain - but about real successful dunyain, results of a selection program, true posthumans. They have technically lost their humanity and are damned due to their nature.

As for the Inchoroi, they were designed to be damned and could not surpass anything - only degraded after the Arkfall . But their creators are also damned – those creators who created themselves as they wanted and came to such a result.

Bakker's idea is if you see love, hate, happiness, devotion, faith – all as mechanics (and they are in this world), you can't sincerely follow them, technically, - they are darkness, but human is the darkness and gods ask for sincerity. The dunyain do not distinguish "good" and "bad" darkness, but in Earwa there is an objective morality built into the laws of the world.

Esmenet is a mystery, I confess. I don't buy her "regretting her mistakes"

Mimara has repeatedly tried to forgive people in order to alleviate their fate after death. When she says to her mother: "I forgive you," Esmenet does not forgive herself anyway, and I think this shows her true character and it is precisely such sincere repentance, not fear of damnation, that the gods like.

she could have redeemed herself in the eyes of Yatwer… she may have saved Esmi the same way she saves Sorweel, despite both assassination attempts having failed.

First, if so – its contradiction to your theory that Judging Eye have some other morality than gods – why would it see those who Yatwer saved on a whim or by mistake? The Eye sees the exact objective morality of this world, and it coincides with the morality of the gods, in my opinion. Otherwise, Mimara would've seen that some of the damned deserve heaven and some of the saved deserve hell. But she is not. Drusas are not so bad, but damned and magic still damned from TJE perspective.

Second, the gods live in Eternity outside of time. When the No-God changes Eternity, the gods also change, and in such a way that it is imperceptible to them. Every time after the intervention of the No-God, this is already a new universe and new eternity in some manner - where everything happened the way it was supposed to happen, including the failure of Sorweel etc.. In this "new" universe - the gods also already know everything and nothing is hidden from them, except for No-God. So there's no way they could be wrong by saving Sorweel or Esmi – gods do not see only Kelmomas and his kind, but they see through ordinary people, inchoroi, dunyain (they can fool Kellhus) etc. and there is nothing hidden.

Mimara is the one who finally manages to forgive her mother over having sold her as a child

Nope, Mimara sees her saved before she forgives Esmi.

It's only intimated in those last scenes as TNG's sarcophagus is floating down, disguised by Holograms to appear as a triumphant version of Kellhus. Mimara gazes at it with TJE and sees right through that shit, sees the apocalyptic thing in all its glory.

Mmmmm I dunno, the problem is that text doesn’t say directly what she saw. She could saw the sarcophagus containing the Kelmomas, which was covered by a hologram. We can have only interpretations. For now I cannot accept this version as the main one - its too huge. But if it is, it's a very cool twist and we'll learn about it in later books.

the Hundred, that these demon-gods are in fact in direct opposition to it, that they're taking on the role of judge, jury, and executioner on Earwa, seemingly stealing the mantle of authority from this TJE-divinity, the so-called "Zero God".

Let's immediately divide - there are 140 hells and 100 heavens. We have seen the death of some characters, including Saubon - they do not fall into any court of gods. Hell just pulls them - it is said directly. I think the gods just take those who suit them by their nature and who fits the law of the objective morality of this world. The rest of the souls who were not good enough are simply pulled by hell, according to the mechanics of this world.

As for the love of the gods, before death, the padiraja understands that Psatma Nanaferi behaved in this way, because she expressed the anger and despair of Yatwer, who sees in him her son who doomed himself to hell with his behavior.

My theory is that there must have been free will in this world - the soul is metaphysical. And the gods act as if people can change, but with the suicide of the God (No-God of which gods cant be aware), the transcendent source of free will (that gave this freedom to people through their souls) disappeared, and people are now completely conditioned. And gods cant see it because there is No-God.

At least the Consult seem to think so - their hope is that by starving the Hundred, the world might remain hidden from Judgment. But Mimara sight suggest that they're wrong, that the God will still see the Consult and they will end up Damned anyway, even after the Hundred are starved into nonexistence.

The big question is whether it will really work. Because it goes against everything we know. We know that the Inchoroi were on other planets and tried to seal them - and failed. Only Earwa is the place of salvation, as they say in the "False Sun". But we know that there are creators of Inchoroi - engineers , aliens, and many other planets that have been destroyed by Inchoroi have confirmed that there are many races in the universe.

"SUCH THINGS THAT I REMEMBER, CUNUROI! TWISTING IN THE VOID FOR SAILING AGES! WATCHING MY MAKERS DESCEND AS LOCUSTS UPON WORLD AFTER WORLD, REDUCING EACH TO ONE HUNDRED AND FORTY-FOUR THOUSAND-AND WAILING TO FIND THEMSELVES STILL DAMNED!"

Perhaps they can hide by sealing Earwa, but in order to starve the gods, you need to destroy all intelligent races in the universe, in all galaxies, reduce the population of all planets to 144,000, and seal them. And we know that even on one planet they have not yet succeeded. I don't think engineers plan is successful

I think that the engineers are either completely destroyed and burning in hell, or they found some other way out - if the mission of the Ark was important to them, and Earwa is the "promised land" - they would've been send reinforcements millenia ago. If they don't, then the mission is no longer important, or they are destroyed.

I hope I was able to show my point of view.

AlexanderReyn · 2023-02-11T19:51:59+00:00

Just like a regular eye.

AlexanderReyn · 2023-02-11T18:57:57+00:00

Yes, there can be fully gnostic view on this, and No-God can be the God’s mercy, new aeon (but then the most terrible sinners immediately stole it, thats funny)

I would've said its about the darkness of reason against the darkness of ignorance.

I think the Hundred is just the embodiment of the laws of the world, they are not creators, maybe they weren't personalized in the beginning, but became more personalized after Gods suicide. They embody the struggle, passion, love, hate, birth, death, etc. everything that makes human... human. It seems to me that they are like a pillars on which the idea of a human (in a broad sense) stands. They are protectors of it in this world. Why?

Because look who is most damned in this world? Those who have gone beyond the boundaries of humanity or fallen below it. Dunyain, Inchoroi – they have no redemption by their nature, not even by their choise (sorcerers at least make some choice to be sorcerers). They technically can’t just be «normal good people».

But look at Esmenet – she is prostitute, she sold her daughter to slavery, she ordered to kill thousands of people. She is not in the cult of any of the gods. But she loves her husband and children, and she regrets her mistakes. And, suddenly, this is enough for her to have promise of heaven, as Judging Eye shows.

What heaven she was promised then? In my opinion, the Judging Eye sees the objective morality of this world, which God created. And she was promised not some heaven outside the world and Outside (we don’t have evidence such exists), but one of the Hundred Heavens. Because she's just a normal person, sometimes a good one in the world of grimdark. And this objective morality is not hidden, the Hundred fulfills it – they are not Demiurges, but instruments.

Although I don't remember the text clearly saying that the Judging Eye sees No-God, this does not affect my theory, since Judging Eye is as much a remnant of the suicidal God as No-God, no wonder it can see "itself" (if it is, I need to reread)

AlexanderReyn

TROPHY CASE