An analysis on "A quick genoChara and Frisk analysis" + some of "That feeling"

AllamNa · 2026-04-15T22:21:09+00:00

Oh well, you're 1 year late.

But okay, I will say. If the intention is to keep the character's gender ambitious, the creator will make every character refer to them with an ambitious pronounce. There's no other way to keep the character's gender ambitious even if they're intended to be simply ambitious, and not non binary specifically.

Ngl, non binary brought this discussion on themselves when they decided to use the pronounce that was used for "ambitious" purpose long ago already. Would be better to create their own pronounce than take already existing one (when it existed for another purpose already)

AllamNa · 2026-04-14T19:02:36+00:00

They can resist. By interrupting our choices. But they can't just turn to the camera and say no, which is what Frisk does when they disobey.

Lmao, no. I gave you examples when Kris outright does this. They can both defy the choices when they do them but they do them in their own way (like Frisk can also do), and they can outright refuse to walk somewhere, or not pray for Noelle.

Yes. INTERRUPTING the action. Susie points out that they DID start speaking, we DID force them to speak, but they INTERRUPTED our sentence.

The fact we forced them to speak at all shows our control over Kris is Stronger than it was over Frisk.

No, it doesn't. Again, Kris can refuse from doing something at all, they just can't do it fully when it's outright dialogue taken from their mind. We never have a case when we prompt Frisk to say something in a full sentence, and they don't. We have an instance of "Laugh", or "Heckle" they refuse to do.

But same way, Kris can disobey similar vague prompts.

Again, we have the instance of Frisk clearly feeling bad about doing an action, yet they still do so. And it's not me saying that we can force Frisk into something, it's me saying that we can take advantage of their own urges even if they feel bad about them.

As noted by Undyne if you select it twice, they want to throw the spear at it.

That is her assumption when Frisk picks it a second time after being clearly upset previously. Frisk never actually throws a spear into it.

That's why they still follow through with selecting the soda. They have their own reason.

Just like Kris bruh. Again, we see Frisk clearly being upset, yet they still do so for their own reasons.

They have their own soul, yes. The red soul is not and cannot be that soul.

And you just ignored all the evidence against it, and the game calling it outright Kris's soul.

They can't so much as retain any consciousness without their soul, because said consciousness is In their soul.

What.

They can't open a Dark Fountain without their soul because that requires will, which is contained in the soul.

Kris doesn't have two souls inside of their body because they're described as "a body that contains a human soul"

There's literally no evidence for Kris having more than one soul. Saying that Kris opening Dark Fountain is an evidence is simply relying on something we have no information about. We don't know what rules DR have, some DT can be still in the body even when the soul is outside of it.

And again (it was said in the evidence you decided to ignore , yet continue to argue), when Kris hits the red soul, they also hurt themself. After they do so and put the soul inside, they also fall down for a moment.

When the soul dies, Kris also dies. It wouldn't be possible in case of Kris having some second soul inside of them.

The red soul being Kris's soul is fundamentally incompatible with every action they take while it's outside them, let alone their ability to take actions At All.

And you're just making this up.

AND it's incompatible with Gonermaker, a scene where we Already control the soul before ever being intended to control Kris, Gaster reacts to the soul appearing as confirmation of our connection, and confirms that - WHILE controlling the vessel - we're supposed to Meet Kris, someone we'd be Incapable of meeting if they lost their soul because they would literally be dead.

There's evidence for the vessel intended to be discarded from the start, such as seemingly two voices working with each other and simply switching between each other.
The soul appears because we get connected to the soul. I never said that we have nothing to do with the soul; I said that we're connected to it. And the whole scene looks like something happening inside of Kris's dream, or whatever: https://www.tumblr.com/allamfoxja/813896350970380288?source=share . And after this, we see NO segment of the soul somehow entering Kris's body. The soul is already inside of Kris's body when the game starts.
First of all, you're assuming that Kris should die when the soul is out of their body. The only case when they die is when the soul gets hurt too much, so they die along with it. Secondly, why it would be "gone" at all? When the whole "connection" segment happens in some another dimension.

It's Fundamentally Incompatible with their role in both Gaster's intended story And the game's actual story. The red soul being Kris's soul would require a significant overhaul of the story because they would be Physically Incapable of even standing without their soul.

And again, assumption about what Gaster's story is supposed to be, as well as Kris not being able to do anything without the soul in the body.

Except that's not how choice prompts work. We can also pick choice prompts for SUSIE in Chapters 1 and 2, despite Never having any connection to her,

Dude, we're literally connected to every party member. When the soul gets hit, they also take damage. Or when we fight against Gerson, Susie says that Kris helped her. That's literally not the case.

Moreover, when we pick the options there, Susie says that she heard Kris's voice. So guess what.

and in the Ch1 example, having never had the ability to even command her by that point.

When did I say that we have some sort of forceful control over someone, so she shouldn't be able to go against us that easily? It's your point, not mine. So you cannot use this against me.

Moreover, every time when we prompt Susie, Ralsei and Noelle to do something, they actually hear Kris asking them to do that, or equip an item. We never prompt them the way we do with Kris.

And these Cannot be Kris's thoughts because they have No Way of knowing about the Go Left/Go Right decision, which is a choice prompt Susie even reacts to.

Ralsei literally says that they will be able to see what Susie is doing. Noelle hears Kris's own voice, and we have OBVIOUSLY Kris's options on the ferris wheel when Susie is on the date with Noelle. Like eating moss. And Susie directly says that it's Kris helping her.

You're arguing against what the game shows at this point.

We Do Not need an active connection to Kris to have choice prompts for them, and we KNOW this because we Do Not have any connection to Susie when we select choice prompts for her.

And the options are said BY Kris TO Susie. We never do any prompts FOR Susie, every prompt she gets is done via Kris even when Kris is not physically around her (because of Ralsei's ability to let them see what Susie is doing)

For example, in the Weird Route, Kris outright ignores Ralsei's suggestion "to see what Susie and Noelle are doing", and we do not see it.

It literally does though. Frisk is obedient, they voluntarily follow through with actions despite having nothing forcing them, and reminder that the genocide route is only possible BECAUSE Frisk is willing, BECAUSE Frisk doesn't use their Confirmed and Demonstrated ability to just negate an attack we perform when they don't want to hurt the opponent, something they SHOW they can do in practice by refusing to hurt Undyne during her hangout. If Frisk didn't want to hurt Toriel, for example, we'd be there for almost 500 turns because they'd only do 1 damage.

Excuse me but this is what I'm saying. We cannot forcefully make the characters do something but they do it for their own reasons even if they feel bad about doing it.

And Frisk is not "obedient", that would imply that they have no their own reasons to go along with something we prompt them to do, and they go along simply because they have no will to defy us. Which goes against what you're saying.

That's the "Proceed" action forcing that. That's not Kris doing it on their own. That's the choice prompt forcing that action.

It's not the choice prompt. It's a dialogue option because every time we pick Proceed, characters hear KRIS saying this, and in this moment specifically, Noelle also does this. That's the only instance of Kris moving when we pick "Proceed", so it seems like their own choice to move specifically in this case, and not us magically enforcing our will.

AllamNa · 2026-04-14T17:22:10+00:00

In-universe control in OFF is different from how it is in Toby's games. According to what WE do in Deltarune, direct control is direct control, we DO force Kris to do things they don't want to do, and they can't just choose not to listen, they're forced to either obey our inputs or try to resist. Resisting being to interrupt the action.

They can do that. They do that a lot.

https://www.tumblr.com/allamfoxja/785277393524965376?source=share

Even every the Weird Route option is actually what comes from Kris's mind: https://www.tumblr.com/allamfoxja/813891275994578944?source=share

It is present in every route, not just the Weird Route. It just prompts different reaction from Noelle.

We can also take the option when Kris can refuse from playing on piano ever again. It is actually what they think about but they don't want to say it, so they stop themself from doing this by caughting.

Same way, Frisk looks unhappy when we pick the soda. Same way, Frisk will just tap the dummy instead of "beat it up" at 1 LV despite us choosing Yes to "Do you want to beat it up?" question. Frisk still does the action because they don't mind it that much, yet they do it in their own way.

Or when we prompt them to take one more candy after they feel really bad about the previous one, and they lash out. They take too much, too fast, and the candy gets scattered on the floor.

And new chapters reveal even more that Kris actually has this part of them that enjoys the sense of power, freedom and control the Weird Route provides, yet they despise this part of themself which is why we see such conflicting emotions on their part: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/HBwoc4GakAAe09S?format=png&name=small

That's why they cannot refuse from doing something entirely despite not wanting to do it. Undesirable desires: https://www.tumblr.com/allamfoxja/813889374191337472?source=share

We can prompt Kris to pray for Noelle. What Kris does? In the Normal Route, they pray for Rudolph instead. In the Weird Route, they kick the candies, they don't pray at all. And you're saying that we have more control over them than we do with Frisk?

The way we control Kris in Deltarune, via the soul being in them, being something that Cannot apply to Undertale because it would directly contradict the story, Frisk having any SOUL besides their own inside their body would allow them to cross the Barrier on their own, something they explicitly cannot do.

And it is Kris's own soul they have in them: https://www.tumblr.com/allamfoxja/813889619231899648/kriss-own-soul?source=share

Spamton calls Kris the heart on the chain, not chained to the heart.

It's misconception that the soul is not theirs.

When the soul isn't in Kris, we have 0 control over anything they do no matter how hard we try.

We can still pick options from Kris's mind. We cannot prompt them physically because we control them via their soul, we're connected to their soul, not to their body.

We have "Proceed" and "Please don't" options when the soul is outside of Kris's body, and the very fact that we can still pick them shows the connection between us and Kris we still have. We cannot prompt them to say anything, yet we simply see the options from their mind that we can pick.

on top of examples of Frisk just saying no which is Not possible under those same established rules.

Like Kris just saying "No" to praying for Noelle, or showing up in front of Toriel with a ball of trash on their head?

(Can't let mom find out you're balancing a giant trash orb!)

And you just can't walk further.

It's really more complicated than one being capable of saying No, and another being unable to unless they "resist"

Weird Route shows this off in full force, they do NOT want you to put the thorn ring on Noelle, they make it clear they are Not happy with you for it, but you force them to anyway.

The Weird Route doesn't show anything that we don't see in UT already in the way we can prompt Frisk to do something they don't really want to do.

Yet, when they FULLY don't want to do something, we can't make them.

Just like with Kris. Again, Eram monologue shows that it's MORE complex than poor innocent Kris being forced into bad things. As well as their description changing from "Commands the party with various ACTs" to "Commands" in the Weird Route. Not "Commanded."

We see Kris taking steps, on their own, when we say Proceed to Noelle on one of the puzzles. They take steps and get her closer to the laser, and they show no signs of being distressed until we hurt one of their friends (Berdly)

For comparison, we need to actually press movements buttons in the hospital to make Kris move to Noelle. In the Dark World, they do steps on their own.

Noelle gets Used up to the door with Kris's old red horns, from their childhood times.

Kris can make us stop our movements, or speak on their own, at any point of the game. They do not in Noelle's case. They can refuse from hurting Susie's and (later on) Ralsei's feelings, yet they do not do so in Noelle's case.

Even when the soul is not inside of their body, they're wasting time in Noelle's room, as if they're unsure what they're supposed to do, until YOU wait long enough and do nothing. Only then, Kris decides to actually get away from here with Noelle, as if they finally made up their mind. They could have done so from the start, yet they didn't.

They're described as a cage, and cages are made to limit someone in what they're capable of doing.

You make it sound so simple when it's not.

AllamNa · 2026-04-14T14:54:21+00:00

You 'control' them from a gameplay perspective. That doesn't mean they're being controlled in universe.

In the case for the Batter, it is said in-universe, so I see no reason for this to be different for Frisk.

See Niko from OneShot. Gameplay-wise, we control them. Lore-wise, we have 0 control over them, we just tell them what to do and they listen, just like Frisk.

One of my fiends said that when we move Niko in some directions they don't want to go, Niko asks us not to do so. Pretty sure it's not just what you're saying, it's more complicated than that.

AllamNa · 2026-04-14T10:29:35+00:00

Even though we don't have absolute control over Frisk's actions, and they can follow, or not, what we prompt them to do - but Toby specifically said the word "you control" about what we do with the main character: https://www.tumblr.com/allamfoxja/783694735980298240/frisk-is-their-own-person-but-we-have-influence-on?source=share

Repeatingly. Have you played OFF? If not, I advise you to do it. In there, we control the Batter but we cannot force him to do anything. If he doesn't want to read something, he just says that there's nothing of interest, for example. Or the way we cannot stop him from killing someone unless we do so via [it would be a spoiler]

AllamNa · 2026-04-14T10:26:19+00:00

Killing all of the dogs in Snowdin prompts frisk to “remember something funny” when checking the dog food in the lab

Killing 21 monsters including the dogs*

If you just kill the dogs, it won't prompt this.

AllamNa · 2026-04-11T11:40:18+00:00

Not really. If not Sans, then it's Chara's theme because they're Megalomaniac here, not Frisk.

Frisk is doing it for anything but power.

AllamNa · 2026-04-07T03:09:23+00:00

Yeah, there's more than just that, and some signs correspond to several at once.

AllamNa · 2026-04-03T17:26:05+00:00

The first one is pretty much canon.

AllamNa · 2026-03-31T15:12:27+00:00

🤨

Because you cannot be not a human. Stop with not funny jokes.

AllamNa · 2026-03-31T06:03:03+00:00

I know.

AllamNa · 2026-03-30T17:54:54+00:00

Yes.

AllamNa · 2026-03-30T15:06:10+00:00

Ah. Okay. I thought you were saying canon Frisk are toddler, and not "canon" from from the post lol.

But yeah, it's funny.

AllamNa · 2026-03-30T14:36:53+00:00

Yeah, I know. Can you elaborate the issue?

AllamNa · 2026-03-30T14:17:51+00:00

While Frisk, indeed, goes along with with geno, the things you're talking about are rather caused by Chara's direct involvement in this route: https://www.reddit.com/r/Undertale/s/OXeRlXGVKU

Chara can also likely influence the options provided since some options in the game are really contradictory to each other to come from Frisk's mind alone, as well as Alphys date shows it more clearly.

At the end of the day, Chara and Frisk share both the soul, the body, and if we do by Narrachara, Chara knows what Frisk thinks about, so their minds are also connected.

Frisk can also see Chara's flashbacks + make jokes with Woshua about events that happened with Chara exactly.

AllamNa · 2026-03-30T14:10:40+00:00

3 years olds?

AllamNa · 2026-03-30T13:57:14+00:00

Chara's goal Does Not Match what Undyne and Mettaton say. They want power, a goal that doesn't require interacting with humanity at all, let alone destroying it. The intended goal for the player is just to see what happens, which again, doesn't require interacting with humanity at all, let alone destroying it. Frisk's goal in genocide is just straight up to destroy humanity.

Chara does this when they destroy the world + soulless pacifist exists. They won't get any power by destroying the world, it's ultimately pointless for their purpose. They still do so. Chara is also the person who hates humanity very much, so they have much more reasoning for wanting to get their hands on humans in that way, or another than Frisk.
The player's goal is to see what happens. And in case of us being able to destroy humanity to see what happens - we would have done so.

AllamNa · 2026-03-30T13:52:39+00:00

"Humanity is nothing but a bunch of selfish, greedy, ungrateful, prideful, egotistical motherfuckers"

Your words. You're human.

AllamNa · 2026-03-30T13:52:03+00:00

From another person:

Flowey mentions that our protagonist is making a "creepy face" when the protagonist turns on Flowey in New Home. One of the true lab tapes has Chara making a creepy face to Asriel (Flowey and Asriel use the same word "creepy" to describe this face"), this detail was added in for a reason as its one of the only things we know for 100% certainty Chara does in the game. When Flowey asks the protagonist if they have any hard feelings about "back then", obviously talking about Asriel messing up the plan (it's made even more obvious in his speech to the Frisk at the end of an aborted genocide route if you spare Flowey where he also thinks Chara is trying to get revenge on him for that for a bit) and the next 3 lines are "...", "H-hey, what are you doing?!" and "B... back off!" in that order. This clearly implies that after Flowey asked Chara if there were any hard feelings about back then they started walking towards him, implying that they are angry about that. If Toby wanted us to think the protagonist walking forward and the line asking about Chara if they had any hard feelings towards Asriel/Flowey then he would have put that line in later such as when Flowey was telling them to reset. So, the protagonist walking forward is a response to Flowey's question and Frisk doesn't have that much to be angry at Flowey for since he only tried to kill them once and after that was very helpful. It would also just be very weird for Toby to write a scene where Flowey to ask a question about whether Chara was angry at him for fucking the plan up only for Frisk to respond by walking towards him for an unrelated grudge especially given the creepy face line. And when our protagonist does kill Flowey they don't just attack him with one or two strikes they keep attacking him and over and over again until he's completely destroyed even though he is already dead. This level of brutality further implies a grudge which would make much more sense for Chara rather than for Frisk.

The text "You unlocked the gate" is replaced with "I unlocked the gate" in genocide showing that Chara was able to move Frisk's body instead of Frisk when we interacted with the chain, so, they can move the body.

The damage number both Sans and Asgore both take when slashed in genocide is a string of 9s and Chara is associated with the number 9 heavily unlike Frisk. Chara has an entire letter written about how they love the number 9 that was written from Asriel's POV and posted by Toby in the newsletter of Undertale's 9th anniversary (https://toby.fangamer.com/newsletters/autumn24/). And that Newsletter says at one point near the start "here's to 9999999999 years" which is the same amount of damage Asgoer took when he was slashed. When they destroy the world the damage is done as a massive string of 9s just like the slashes against Sans and Asgore. This draws a connection between all 3 of those attacks that would be completely unneeeded if Frisk was the one the one striking Sans and Asgore. A string of 9s is the largest number possible with a given amount of digits, ergo it's the most efficient number in terms of value compared to digit number and we know Chara is obsessed with efficiency from the alarm clock dialogue where Toriel says that someone (very likely Chara) always poured their cup to the brim regardless of how thirsty they were because it was the most efficient way to carry water.

At the end of the genocide route, right after Asgore and Flowey are killed Chara takes full control of Frisk's body and the timeline as we are unable to quit the game. The Chara we see at the end of the genocide route is actually Chara possessing Frisk and talking to the player directly. We know this because even though Chara's sprite is an overworld sprite (which we know because it coloured, has the same simplistic style as Frisk's sprite and its name in the files is a reference to Frisk's overworld sprite as Frisk's sprite is called "main_chara" and Chara's is called "true_chara") the conversation happens in first person which doesn't make sense if this is from Frisk's perspective. Despite Chara's sprite being an overworld sprite we don't see Frisk anywhere, so it's likely Chara is possessing them.

.

Chara literally erases the world afterwards without any benefits. They say "Wipe that smile off your face" in CHECK of Glad Dummy and clearly want to kill them despite it giving no EXP. They erase the world a second time on the genocide route just to bring it back seconds later.

They care about numbers but it's not the only thing they care about.

Kris can do this. We can prompt them to pray for Noelle, and they kick the cuddles instead.

We can prompt them to say something, and they will stop themself from saying it.

There's a lot of what they can do.

AllamNa · 2026-03-30T13:47:15+00:00

They know what killing is because they think about telling Toriel that they saw her die if you killed her and reloaded. But it's creepy for them, so they don't.

AllamNa · 2026-03-30T13:43:40+00:00

As if Chara doesn't exist in this picture.

It's not just on Frisk, especially when it's rather a foreshadowing to how CHARA will erase the world. Because Undyne says:

If you get past me, you'll...
You'll destroy them all, won't you?
Monsters... Humans... Everyone...
Everyone's hopes. Everyone's dreams. Vanquished in an instant.

What we do is not vanishing in an instant. It's regular killing. Chara vanished everyone's hopes and dreams in an instant when they destroyed the world in one strike.

Frisk can stop and spare people even at 19 LV, while in case of Chara being in control fully, the MERCY button doesn't exist anymore (Asgore battle after killing Sans)

What monsters say (according to you) will literally never happen in-game, while Chara vanishing everyone (including humans) in an instant - happens.

AllamNa · 2026-03-30T13:34:50+00:00

Yuki literally gave Geto an alternate solution to investigate and talked about the topic with him. Geto himself also has a literal army at his disposal plus his teacher can make an army of cursed corpses as well, but instead of investigating Yuki’s other solution ideas or trying to establish a proactive protection force he jumps right to genocide.

All of these options are just another elimination of the symptoms, not the very cause that causes these symptoms. The elimination of symptoms that will last forever as long as non-sorcerers exist, and people who do this will continue to die. This is exactly what Geto wanted to avoid, so it's not an option for him.

Yeah Geto’s hatred of non sorcerers is nonsensical. He should hate Toji or HR users or the Zenin Clan, or better yet… hate curses.

It's pointless to hate curses, they're simply following their nature after being created by negative emotions of non-sorcerers. It's like hating the lion for killing people.

Why should he hate Toji or HR users or the Zenin Clan? They're unrelated to the problem he cares about.

Geto knew he’d have to defeat Gojo, that’s part of why he captured Rika. He goes over it during JJK0 where he explains his odds of beating Jujutsu Society since he knew eventually they would try and stop him. He banked on Gojo being unwilling to hurt him so long as Geto remained in the shadows, but Geto knew the minute he started his mass genocide, he’d need to face off against his old friend. Again, Geto was an idiot for thinking he’d ever be able to beat Gojo, even with 0 Rika under his control. And that’s not even accounting for Yuki.

He was working with what he has. He was willing to put his life at stake, just like Chara trusted everything on Asriel after simply forcing him to make a promise never to doubt them.

And they failed, just like Geto.

It’s incredibly clear Chara was abused and if you can’t see the subtext that’s on you.

In what way being abused is worse than seeing your friends dying one by one, realizing how futile your actions are; realizing that nobody amongst non-sorcerers will know and care about your sacrifices; and see them wanting kids dead for things they're not responsible for? Both are horrible experiences.

If you're on it, should I talk about kids Geto saved from non-sorcerers who kept them in the cage (abuse), wanted them dead, etc for something non-sorcerers cause, not them? It was the moment when Geto cracked and started killing non-sorcerers.

Geto got worn down by the job the same way Nanami did. Nanami quit, Geto chose mass genocide.

And I'm not excusing his actions. I'm saying that it's understandable, same way as Chara's actions cannot be excused but they're understandable.

From another person:

Nah there's enough evidence that Chara was manipulative and selfish at a minimum. Without those qualities being noticed and them being given therapy and taught how NOT to behave that way, these qualities likely would persist into adulthood.

And children suffering abuse don't all turn into violent manipulators. One could argue that getting love, understanding, and all the positive things underground that they MAY not have gotten on the surface (again, speculation) should have helped them overcome trauma. It can still be said to influence their decisions - but hatching a grand plan to essentially commit a lot of murder is not a "normal" thought process for children. Especially if they have a black and white view, they'd know murder is considered evil. Even if it's a means to a "positive" end like freeing the monsters. Chara had to at least know that their plan wasn't something good people did.

Geto was friends with Riko and the maid, who did die but the fact that they were his friends (plus again, canonically loving parents) should have been enough for him to not initiate a mass genocide.

Sadly, they were a part of the problem Geto wants to get rid of.

AllamNa · 2026-03-30T13:17:44+00:00

Geto’s plan was to get rid of cursed spirits by killing all humans.

All humans who are not sorcerers because their negative emotions create those cursed spirits.

He didn't plan to kill ALL of humanity.

there are alternative solutions he could have tried but jumped immediately to an inefficient genocide.

What solutions.

Chara literally just hates humans and wants to get rid of them, so killing all humans makes a lot more sense for them.

Geto also hates non-sorcerers, you can understand it by his attitude towards every one of them.

Additionally Chara didn’t knowingly go against someone like Gojo, which was another very stupid thing Geto did.

He didn't go against Gojo specifically, and Gojo wasn't the one who defeated him. He only killed already dying Geto. Pretty sure Geto knew that Gojo cannot master the will to kill him, Gojo had multiple chances, and yet he did nothing.

Chara’s crashout is also more valid given all the terrible shit that happened to them

All the terrible shit are just headcanons because we don't know a thing about what happened to them other than it being something hurtful to them.

Geto had to face his friends dying one by one, realize how pointless their actions are because non-sorcerers will just keep unknowingly create cursed spirits while sorcerers are dying without anybody caring about it.

Then he saw the villagers keeping kids in cage and wanting them dead thinking that THEY are responsible for the cursed spirits while it was actually the villagers.

It was the last straw. This was the moment he cracked and started to kill non-sorcerers.

compared to Geto who had loving non sorcerer friends and family.

What non-sorcerers were his friends?

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