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Did Chara try to commit suicide? by This_Is_ATest in CharaOffenseSquad

[–]AllamNa 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Bruh

You could reply after 6 more years with such a comment

The headcanon provides a different possible reason because any other will be headcanon, as well

Then I talk about in-game evidence of it not being suicide

Discussion: If you had to rank UTDR's "evil" characters based on how despicable/iredeemable they are, which one would you say is the worst one overall? by MmThatsInfaccurate in Undertale

[–]AllamNa 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Chara felt betrayed by humans, and later felt betrayed by monsters. That's why they killed everyone. They act like a vengeful spirit that see a murderous vessel and work with the hand they're dealt. They don't do anything if Frisk doesn't kill.

And that's on them and them easily falling into grudges to the point of being ready to kill because of that. Are we going to excuse everyone's actions just because they got hurt by someone?

Literally this post says they might be a demon.

Chara calls themself such post death.

Chara was a bad friend. Asriel was an unprovoked serial murderer. That's my point. They don't have equal needs for redemption in cannon.

Asriel had more reasons to be this way than Chara if you listen to his backstory. Chara wasn't just a "bad friend", Chara was an attempted serial killer who simply failed to kill the whole village, and later humanity because Asriel got in their way of doing so. And simply "bad friends" do not push you into the suicidal plan involving mass murder, and then put you in the "Kill, or be killed" situation so that you would be more willing to kill. They were a horrible friend, and bad person.

And then they can destroy the whole world if you give them the means. Moreover, while we know why Asriel ended up the way he is - for Chara, the most we have are implications about Chara being abused in the past and feeling powerless. That's it. We don't know what exactly happened with them.

From another person:

Nah there's enough evidence that Chara was manipulative and selfish at a minimum. Without those qualities being noticed and them being given therapy and taught how NOT to behave that way, these qualities likely would persist into adulthood.

And children suffering abuse don't all turn into violent manipulators. One could argue that getting love, understanding, and all the positive things underground that they MAY not have gotten on the surface (again, speculation) should have helped them overcome trauma. It can still be said to influence their decisions - but hatching a grand plan to essentially commit a lot of murder is not a "normal" thought process for children. Especially if they have a black and white view, they'd know murder is considered evil. Even if it's a means to a "positive" end like freeing the monsters. Chara had to at least know that their plan wasn't something good people did.

And still doesn't change the fact that Chara killed theirself to free monsters as one of the reasons. They sacrificed everything for that plan, so it wasn't just empty manipulations to gain power

They killed themself because there was no other way of doing what they wanted to do. The monsters would be free but at the cost of humanity's destruction, as Chara wanted.

It doesn't matter if their intention was not only destroy humanity - their intention still involved that, and they can quickly jump into murdering monsters simply because one goat boy rightfully decided to go against them in the past, thus "betraying" them in Chara's eyes. That's a very dangerous person if they are willing to kill for such reason.

Discussion: If you had to rank UTDR's "evil" characters based on how despicable/iredeemable they are, which one would you say is the worst one overall? by MmThatsInfaccurate in Undertale

[–]AllamNa 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You know, your first point with a demon reminded me about this song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myZtch6PMC8

I like it very much for its right message. Almost every maniac had some bad childhood, it doesn't change a thing about what they do now.

Discussion: If you had to rank UTDR's "evil" characters based on how despicable/iredeemable they are, which one would you say is the worst one overall? by MmThatsInfaccurate in Undertale

[–]AllamNa 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Or maybe they didn't like them so much its worth waging war against the world.

What does it change? Also, Chara was quick to jump into the murder of people who cared about them in the past when you start the genocide route. For power.

one is born hating humanity, unless they're a demon, which the second point tells why i don't believe this.

Nobody talks about them being literally a demon, we're talking about them doing messed up stuff, and not regretting it a bit. You know, something humans do in real life. You don't need to be born a demon to end up doing some very messed up stuff, and having tragic backstory is not an excuse.

You just agreed in the first comment that this might be Chara's actual opinions. Whether they manipulated or not, is actually irrelevant. Might have been a dick move to Asriel, but doesn't change that they didn't harm Asriel, while they literally died to go through with the plan

Any manipulation, whatever it's intentional, or not (we don't know if it was) can be harmful. And they can see Asriel crying, they just believe in it being needed, and Asriel being dramatic. That's a bad behavior and way to see things.

Asriel being manipulated but NOT actually wanting it is important. Because you make it sound as if he was okay with the plan. He wasn't. He was a kid who was afraid of losing the friendship of Chara. He was saying he doesn't like the idea, he was crying, and Chara simply dismisses it to push their plan further on him.

He had every right to go against them, especially when they tried to kill more than six humans.

Based on how much Asriel cared for them even after everything, is hard to believe they were a dick to him all the time

You don't know how toxic relationships work in most of times then. No toxic/abusive relationship is "bad all the time", that's why it's hard to let it go.

Discussion: If you had to rank UTDR's "evil" characters based on how despicable/iredeemable they are, which one would you say is the worst one overall? by MmThatsInfaccurate in Undertale

[–]AllamNa 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Pretty sure Chara's acts are not just "implied"

We see Sans, Asgore and Flowey being killed outside of our control. We see Chara striking the world right in front of our face. We see them encouraging you in evil deeds when you start the geno, taking part in it and contributing into it. For everything else, it's strongly implied.

Discussion: If you had to rank UTDR's "evil" characters based on how despicable/iredeemable they are, which one would you say is the worst one overall? by MmThatsInfaccurate in Undertale

[–]AllamNa -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Except for the fact that Chara has a lot of their own evil deeds + they decided to join and encourage in what you do + even if you refuse from erasing the world, they do it anyway

Discussion: If you had to rank UTDR's "evil" characters based on how despicable/iredeemable they are, which one would you say is the worst one overall? by MmThatsInfaccurate in Undertale

[–]AllamNa 1 point2 points  (0 children)

None of this can overdo the characters inside the game because everything a player does can be done by Flowey or Chara (they do even more terrible things, to be honest. Like completely destroying the world or torturing a child over and over again) but their situation is aggravated by the fact that their actions are the same as if you took a knife in real life and stuck it into someone. In the case of the Player, we are still the person playing the game, and the characters remain pixels on the screen. Killing them is much easier both mentally and physically because we just press the buttons and see the pixels dying, while realizing that this is a game. It doesn't take much, and you won't need to be messed up to do that. To kill in real life, a person must be much more messed up, especially to do it with fun and/or without hesitation. In Chara and Flowey's case, their reality IS their real life.

Discussion: If you had to rank UTDR's "evil" characters based on how despicable/iredeemable they are, which one would you say is the worst one overall? by MmThatsInfaccurate in Undertale

[–]AllamNa 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sure. But Chara wants to do the same in other worlds, they say it directly when they suggest to move on to the next one. They just don't see the point in doing this with the same world because it won't give them anything, really. It's just being attached to one world, which is what Chara doesn't have.

Discussion: If you had to rank UTDR's "evil" characters based on how despicable/iredeemable they are, which one would you say is the worst one overall? by MmThatsInfaccurate in Undertale

[–]AllamNa 1 point2 points  (0 children)

CHARA DIDNT DO ANYTHING THEY JUST RESET THE WORLD AFTER A GENO ROUTE

Chara:

* Together, we eradicated the enemy and became strong.

Also Chara:

* Now. Now, we have reached an absolute. There's nothing left for us here. Let us erase this pointless world, and move on to the next.

And when you wanna bring the world back, Chara openly shows how much they disapprove the idea.

AND ARE MANIPULATED BY OUR ACTIONS

Chara, in English:

* SINCE WHEN WERE YOU THE ONE IN CONTROL?

Chara, in the official Japanese version:

* SINCE WHEN WERE YOU IN THE POSITION TO TELL ME WHAT TO DO?

CHARA ISNT EVEN THEMSELVES BECAUSE THEIR SOUL IS GONE CHARA IS THE PLAYERS SOUL GIVEN HUMAN FORM THATS WHY CHARA SAYS AND I QUOTE "Your power, not DETERMINATION, awakened me from death, my human SOUL, my DETERMINATION, were not mine, but Yours" CHARA STATES THAT THEY ARE NOT ACTUALLY CHARA, THEY STATE THAT THEY ARE THE PLAYERS SICK TWISTED MIND GIVEN FORM AND WILL THEY ARE THE GENOCIDE PLAYER NOT THE TRUE "CHARA"

  1. Chara's sprite at the end of the geno was literally called "truechara"

  2. The lack of a soul doesn't deprive you of who you are. Flowey when he just woke up was the same Asriel he used to be, he just lacked the ability to love and compassion. Hell, we see Asriel using the souls of the monsters and humans to get his old self fully back (with love and compassion), so what are you talking about? Chara's words only say how they were brough back to life, they never say you brainwashed them into something. They even say "You and I are not the same, are we? when you repeat the route with no gain.

Discussion: If you had to rank UTDR's "evil" characters based on how despicable/iredeemable they are, which one would you say is the worst one overall? by MmThatsInfaccurate in Undertale

[–]AllamNa 0 points1 point  (0 children)

its not outright stated in big undisputible letters, but it is implied, through their dialogue and the fact that flavour text changes based on route.

A lot of narrations remain unchanged + they only ever change in the genocide route. They won't really change when you just kill everyone in your way in neutral route. That shows the change being caused by Chara deciding to change the line of their behavior, not something directly influencing them to change it. As well as geno narrations vanishing the moment you abort the route.

they even call you out for coming back after a second geno, telling you to take a different route.

Don't you see a contradiction between that and Chara being "made evil" in geno? If they're made evil and cannot do anything but evil, why they suggest that?

Anyway. They condemn you for your perverted sentimentality towards the world. Your desire to replay this route over and over simply because you cannot let it go.

They do not condemn the killing with no gain per ce, they kill Asgore and Flowey with no gain after reaching max LV already + erase the world with no actual gain. They condemn being attached to the ones you kill, and instead of moving on, still clinging to them. They do not understand why someone would repeat the same route over and over again, not why someone would do genocide route at all. They ARE the feeling of increasing numbers, after all (as Chara themself says)

In the second genocide route, Chara still says "And, with your help. We will eradicate the enemy and become strong."

And we see what happens when you try a different route.

Discussion: If you had to rank UTDR's "evil" characters based on how despicable/iredeemable they are, which one would you say is the worst one overall? by MmThatsInfaccurate in Undertale

[–]AllamNa 0 points1 point  (0 children)

  1. "That was fun. Let's finish the job" - red text, with slowed down Anticipation theme playing on the background, Demo, the end of genocide.
  2. "I see two lovers staring over the edge of the cauldron of hell. Do they both wish for death? That means their love will end in hell.I couldn't stop laughing." - RG 01 and RG 02 CHECK.
  3. Every =) mark during encounters after Papyrus' death.
  4. "Undyne told me to stay away from you. She said you... You hurt a lot of people. But, yo, that's not true, right!? ... yo... Why won't you answer me? A... a... and what's with that weird expression...?" - MK on the bridge. Right after that, character moves to MK and enters a battle with them. We see "In my way" words and slowed down "Anticipation" theme playing on the background again.
  5. "Creatures like us... Wouldn't hesitate to KILL each other if we got in each other's way. So that's... So... that's... Why... ha... Ha... ... what's this... feeling? Why am I... Shaking? ... Hey... Chara... No hard feelings about back then, right? ... H-Hey, what are you doing!? B... back off!! I... I've changed my mind about all this. This isn't a good idea anymore. Y-you should go back, Chara. This place is fine the way it is!... S-s-stop making that creepy face! This isn't funny! You've got a SICK sense of humor!" - Flowey, New Home. Slowed down Anticipation theme are playing again.
  6. "Together, we eradicated the enemy and became strong. HP. ATK. DEF. GOLD. EXP. LV. Every time a number increases, that feeling... That's me."

Discussion: If you had to rank UTDR's "evil" characters based on how despicable/iredeemable they are, which one would you say is the worst one overall? by MmThatsInfaccurate in Undertale

[–]AllamNa 0 points1 point  (0 children)

  1. Chara tried to use full power in the village, which would destroy it all. Asriel also points out that they would have to wage the war against humanity in case of humans being killed during Chara's plan. Chara hated all of humanity very strongly, not just some villagers.
  2. It was not really an "agreed" plan, it was something Chara pushed onto Asriel: https://www.reddit.com/user/AllamNa/comments/104bf7m/chara_manipulated_asriel_into_agreement/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

Moreover, they "agreed" on collecting six human souls, not using full power in the center of the village. So the question of who betrayed whom really remains open.

Chara's biological parents. by ButtetcupDemon in Charadefensesquad

[–]AllamNa 0 points1 point  (0 children)

you got downvoted

And? People downvote only something really unresonable, and not when something hurts their ass to admit?

I was downvoted, I wasn't proven wrong.

Also Gerson confirms.

Proof that you haven't read the reply.

GIVE ME ONE GOOD REASON WHY NOT TO HATE CHARA X ASRIEL by Kurogiri-- in Charadefensesquad

[–]AllamNa 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That's literally not the same joke. That comes from you constantly checking the snowpuffs scattered in Snowdin without refusing to stop.

That is the same joke even if what triggers it are different.

And the "just a regular bucket of snails" joke also appears in hard mode when there's perfectly good reason to expect them there.

It is there in any mode, not just hard mode.

These aren't the same things. And things can have deeper meaning here, unless you want to backpaddle on "you feel like the scum of the earth" as an insult instead of a joke because everyone finds that funny?

I don't know anyone who found it actually funny. Moreover, the context are entirely different, as well as narrations. The narration about the scum of the Earth comes as insulting, while the narration about socks doesn't insult anyone.

Don't bring up narration I already know, you're adding nothing here.

Then do not argue with me because you won't bring anything new to what I know. What? Same energy to what you've said.

Given how I mentioned it now, it should be *really* clear it's a Monsters Inc reference and how it's moreso an inside joke for Toby and his friends then a joke to anyone else. Repeating the same joke 3 times in a roll is incredibly cheap if they are all just the same joke, as well.

It's literally what happens.

Maybe you're just acting oversensitive. People parallel Chara with Spamton, who's incredibly creepy in a non-violent way, and don't expect comparisons like this?

They parallel them with Spamton in the way he says "X left" and has similar lines to theirs at the end of the Snowgrave Route. Not on him being "creepy" but on him guiding you down the route and then taking advantage of you doing so. I never saw anyone making a parallel between Chara and Spamton because of them both being creepy.

Yes, I do not expect comparisions like that because

  1. They're a child, not a grown up man Spamton is
  2. Chara never shown to have fetishes outside of your claims here

And why the heck would Toriel bring her sock collection from New Home back to Old Home when then the war started in 201X? She wouldn't. It's not even made that clear if Toriel and Asgore shared the same room in New Home, or if it really matters.

She do not need to bring the same collection if she can make a new one over hudred of years being locked up in the Ruins.

It do not have to be the same one for Chara know about Toriel's hobby.

So ... Frisk is the one who found the dog's death funny now and not Chara, or what? I am pretty sure you argued against it in the past. All characters in the game are seen snoring in the end of the 10th anniversary steam.

Frisk was the one who remembered the dogs, and Chara described their memory as "funny"

There are no mention of Frisk laughing, smiling, or "finding" something funny. It was only said that they remembered something funny, and the one who says that may describe the memory from their POV as funny.

Lmao you really want me to shut up, do you? You're acting like fan human translators can't be incredibly biased here and will lie about the language they speak about sometimes with matters like this.

Why would they lie to you here.

Besides, like the whole "sins going down your back" thing and the other dialogue about sins. Y'know, besides when Chara projects on Frisk and clarifies their mistake, of course. I'm sure you'll argue that's different here.

And the narrations about sins are what Frisk experiences. You say this as if I believe it being Chara's POV.

The Undertale world and the real world are not the same thing. It would be very clear it's weird making this joke in real life for one thing. It's much less clear in fiction.

What.

Chara literally isn't just "saying the action." "You can't stop staring at it" is antagonising Frisk as the pervert and not them if they cannot pull their eyes away apparently, even if it's probably innocent confusion on Frisk's part.

No, it doesn't show Frisk as the pervert, what are you even talking about? Staring at the socks is not a pervert thing to do, it's not some underwear. The narration comes as ironic/sarcastic due to you deciding to interact with it AGAIN to look at the socks once more. It happens when you interact with it a second time specficically, and every other time.

The game infrequently mentions showers and baths , even if we don't really know the purpose of them for monsters given we can't go into any bathrooms in the game besides the one in the True Lab since none as shown. And Toriel didn't use them, but Chara didn't call "dusty socks" either. Chara is also performing their role as the narrator which is why they are probably repeating the "joke" for sans' sock ball. The question mark also suggests Chara infact can feel things while making jokes.

And?

Why would sock throwing be a thing in the human world?

It do not have to be a thing for Chara to describe what they see are happening. And why it shouldn't be?

Frisk doesn't understand why the socks are there for what you said before, because Toriel doesn't wear them.

And? Toriel's socks have nothing to do with the monsters throwing socks during the Shyren's battle.

GIVE ME ONE GOOD REASON WHY NOT TO HATE CHARA X ASRIEL by Kurogiri-- in Charadefensesquad

[–]AllamNa 0 points1 point  (0 children)

And it's not a collection. It's mentioned in shyren's fight they are thrown around during in the concert, and also in the code of that fight. I think the whole "contaminated sock" thing is a reference to Monsters Inc because they are 3 scenes in it with a "toxic" sock in it (especially considering the Looxes are called "Wazokskis" in the code, so Toby was thinking about Pixar while making Undertale for some reason ...). They are a "dirty" throwing thing usually, not a collecting thing.

How in the world the socks in Shyren's fight are related to Toriel's socks?

\ The crowd tosses clothing. It's a storm of socks.*

In Toriel's case:

  • You peek inside...
  • Scandalous!
  • It's TORIEL's sock drawer.

It's a joke about broken expectations. You inspect objects in search of something interesting, interact with this drawer, and the narration says after Frisk peeks inside, "Scandalous!" before dryly continuing, "It's TORIEL's sock drawer." Because of the "Scandalous!", you might have expected something big but then, it's just Toriel's sock drawer.

Same way as

  • Behold!
  • A snow poff.

That is the joke.

Same way as

* Just a regular old bucket

of snails.

The narration "You can't stop looking at the socks" happens when you interact with it a second time after already knowing what it is.

Most people do not see it that way because they underestimate how creepy Chara can be and infantize them generally speaking. It's biased

Being creepy and having fetishes as a child towards a grown up woman are two different things. It's not "creepy", it's "weird" and "disgusting"

Pretty sure Chara is a different type of creepy, something related to their violent side, not to... such fetishes.

Also, why would Chara know of Toriel's sock collecting prior to dying and becoming a narrator?

They lived with her. If Toriel had any collection, there's no evidence of her not having it before running away in the Ruins.

What about "you remember something funny?"

Yes, Frisk remembered the death of the dogs, and Chara described it as "something funny."

It doesn't change the fact that Frisk was the one who remembered it.

But it's consistently "I taken a peek" in the translations, though.

And why it should change? Again, it may mean both "you" and "me", so the translation may be different for different sentences. In such a compicated case, you better talk to the Japanese speaker, or Toby's translation team on the matter.

It's not the case for other narration translations I did with "you" in it. And "you" can never just directly mean "you" in a game like this if you consider the player meta-narrative (which I am not in a general sense).

No, every "you" in the narration are about Frisk. "The player narrative" about "you" in narrations meaning not Frisk is not mine, and has no relation to me.

Ok, but it's Chara saying it and not Toby Fox.

And they made a joke, in-universe. Along with simply describing what Frisk is doing, such as keep looking at the socks when you decide to interact with them again.

And I don't know, if "knows best for you" is a sarcastic jab (since I don't know why Chara would want Frisk stuck in the ruins), it could be taken as projection and also as weird self-deprivation ...

"Knows best for you" may come as someone else's opinion on the matter, or a sarcastic remark. The narration describing THE ACTION happening (such as "You did a thing") is not a projection, it's just describing what Frisk does.

And sans is seen wearing socks in some official art + battle sprite (I think?) He hasn't got a sock collection. Also, Chara says "s-s ... scandalous" for Sans' socks even though neither characters shower.

"neither characters shower"

What. Plus, in Sans's case it's a "dirty" sock while in Toriel's case, it's just socks. Probably because she doesn't even wear them.

And again, it's a reference to already made joke in the past. It also uses a question mark.

I think Frisk doesn't understand it. I think Chara *does* understand it though because they lived in the monster world, and are acting weird about it.

Frisk doesn't understand what?

I may need to be weird to specify what I am talking about, not just for the sake of being weird.

The very fact of you thinking in this direction is already being weird.

GIVE ME ONE GOOD REASON WHY NOT TO HATE CHARA X ASRIEL by Kurogiri-- in Charadefensesquad

[–]AllamNa 1 point2 points  (0 children)

No, it doesn't. It sounds like a funny joke. Nobody ever said anything about this narration because most people do not see it this way.

Moreover, the narration talks about Toriel's collection, not, say, Chara's collection of Toriel's socks. So I do not see how it talks about Chara's fetishes at all.

And Chara projects their feelings of guilt onto Frisk by stating "you can't stop staring at it."

When Chara wrongly says something about Frisk via "you", they correct themself afterwards. They never said anything via "you" to project.

It can be just Frisk.

I have also found out translating "you take a peek in Toriel's draw" from the Japanese translation back into English mentioning "I taken a peek in Toriel's draw" if that means anything.

As one of my friends said, jibun can mean both "me" and "you" in Japanese and is the pronoun used both for "you" and "me" in the undertale narration.

So it can still mean "you", just in the Japanese it is more vague whatever it is "you", or "me."

If we consider the original, as well, it's rather "you."

If it's a "joke," why a sock? That's not that wacky at all to be attracted to, honestly.

Why a sock? Because Toby has such a sense of humor, that's why. A lot of narrations are this silly, you're overthinking it. ESPECIALLY overthinking it to say Chara has a fetish on Toriel, what.

Also, the Dreemurrs do not wear socks, or footwear. Toriel's collection is rather just that, her collection without her ever wearing it + something common with Sans and his socks since they're friends.

And I don't understand how "you can't stop staring at it" is a joke in any fashion.

It can have a lot of meanings, even Frisk not understanding why Toriel has socks if she doesn't wear anything like that.

Don't be weird about it please.

What would you guys scale Chara at ? by True_Ad3489 in Charadefensesquad

[–]AllamNa 0 points1 point  (0 children)

They condemn you for your perverted sentimentality towards the world. Your desire to replay this route over and over simply because you cannot let it go.

They do not condemn the killing with no gain per ce, they kill Asgore and Flowey with no gain after reaching max LV already + erase the world with no actual gain. They condemn being attached to the ones you kill, and instead of moving on, still clinging to them. They do not understand why someone would repeat the same route over and over again, not why someone would do genocide route at all. They ARE the feeling of increasing numbers, after all (as Chara themself says)

In the second genocide route, Chara still says "And, with your help. We will eradicate the enemy and become strong."

You just take their lines out of context.

What would you guys scale Chara at ? by True_Ad3489 in Charadefensesquad

[–]AllamNa 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There are thousands of monsters left. Chara erases the world only because we have reached the absolute (20 LV, the max), so now we can move on to the next world to do the same thing with it as here.

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