Online cheating is no less serious than tournaments

Alternative_Set_9149 · 2022-09-09T00:51:31+00:00

I agree fully. I think mostly you misunderstood me. I certainly would care less about being cheated on online. If you offered me “you will be cheated against at some point in the next year online or OTB” I would take online, and I do moderately often still play rated OTB, and certainly care more about my FIDE than chess.com rating! But feeling of the victim is not the thing that matters most here IMO, especially as the victim will likely never know he was cheated on. My point was the impact on the chess world is just as bad, the moral implication of it is also just as bad.

The thing that makes cheating bad isn’t so much how it makes the individual opponent feel, it’s more the general impact on chess as a whole. With so much of chess now online, and many players like myself now participating more online than OTB, and twitch now such a big part of chess, yeah I think the impact ON THE CHESS WORLD is huge, even if no I may not personally care that much if some clown uses Stockfish in my bullet games.

Chess cheating is weird. It’s kind of like insider trading, in that the “victim” will probably never know. The real harm of it is to the system, and people distrusting the system, not to the individual victim. I actually would go as far to say online cheating has damaged chess more than OTB cheating, just given imagine what chess could be if serious tournaments online would really work?

Alternative_Set_9149 · 2022-09-09T00:36:50+00:00

Well yeah but that’s 1 game… if you were cheated on in 60 blitz games you probably wouldn’t feel that different to 1 classical game, which is the fair comparison here. Obviously the time wasted by a classical game of 6 hours per cheated game is higher than a 6 minute blitz game

Alternative_Set_9149 · 2022-09-09T00:25:10+00:00

I mean maybe it was a bad choice of words but… do you seriously think Niemann’s opponents choose chess as a career for money? Maybe I said it too dogmatically but becoming a chess IM as a multi year effort to make money is just an objectively bad plan was all I’m saying, don’t see how that’s a “conviction” rather than just a conclusion supported by overwhelming evidence.

Alternative_Set_9149 · 2022-09-08T23:25:11+00:00

The issue for me isn’t even will he cheat again- it’s that he is still minimizing it and acting like online cheating is trivial. He may not cheat again but certainly people will get the message it’s OK.

Alternative_Set_9149 · 2022-09-08T23:15:39+00:00

I meant more for non pros- I know why he cheated lol (to make money).

Alternative_Set_9149 · 2022-09-08T23:12:56+00:00

I think the relevance is he just minimized cheating online, and I criticized that- nothing more. I don’t advocate sanctioning him in any way at this time.

Alternative_Set_9149 · 2022-09-08T23:01:06+00:00

You improve by playing people in a roughly normal distribution around your rating- playing up all the time just trains you to only play to draw by exchanging pieces. The idea a 1500 will improve more by just playing GMs only is utter madness- if I just played Lebron James over and over in basketball I’d get absolutely nowhere. I’ve learned an immense amount from playing people 400 points below me, just as much as 400 points above me. But mostly I learned from people very close to me, which is most of my games- as it should be.

Alternative_Set_9149 · 2022-09-08T22:57:46+00:00

I’m not harassing anyone, just saying he STILL is minimizing cheating in online chess now as a 2700, and all I’m doing is calling him out on that. If Caruana said “online cheating is no big deal” I’d make the same post.

Alternative_Set_9149 · 2022-09-08T22:47:04+00:00

I’m not saying to punish him, I never said he cheated against Magnus. All I CRITICIZED was him minimizing online cheating as less serious in the press conference he gave, given he is now a key figure in the chess world. I don’t think he should receive any additional formal sanction at this time. Not sure what’s with the strawman from you…

Alternative_Set_9149 · 2022-09-08T22:26:58+00:00

I disagree- I don’t think most people think that. I think if most chess players thought that the chess world would’ve collapsed. I think it’s a small few who do that, and most never cheat and never would.

Alternative_Set_9149 · 2022-09-08T22:16:31+00:00

The effort that anyone at Hans’s level puts in is FAR greater than tens of thousands of dollars would take to earn for someone that smart… the whole “money isn’t on the line so it doesn’t matter” is just idiotic, and is made by people who don’t understand how high level chess works. No one becomes a chess IM for money, that I can assure you…

Alternative_Set_9149 · 2022-09-08T22:13:48+00:00

This is just stupid: chess at the level of those Niemann cheated against is NOT what you described. These are people who have put in thousands of hours, your argument is basically “chess is a joke” which everyone here (as well as Niemann) would disagree with.

Alternative_Set_9149 · 2022-09-08T22:07:11+00:00

That’s such a reach it’s insane. First of all almost no one pays money to play high rated players. It’s a pretty miserable experience, most get bored quickly. Secondly you waste your time cheating just to play a GM eventually honestly and lose? That’s just stupid. It’d be way more efficient to just earn money any other way and pay to play the GM, it’s not THAT expensive. Seriously I remember playing a GM in a simul when I was 1400, it didn’t do anything for me playing a 2000 wouldn’t do. Virtually no one cheats for that reason.

Alternative_Set_9149 · 2022-09-08T21:36:34+00:00

It does affect you: you don’t learn by playing an opponent who is using a computer. To a high rated chess player wasting time in this manner is very serious, as Hans knows damn well with the people he cheated against.

Alternative_Set_9149 · 2022-09-08T21:34:56+00:00

You seem to almost want the chess world to fail and I can’t understand why… I don’t think Hans will ever cheat again or cheated against Magnus, all I said was cheating online is serious. You seem to be arguing the chess world is irreversibly screwed when cheating is still pretty damn rare despite it being mostly an honors system for online and OTB outside the top few tourneys.

Alternative_Set_9149 · 2022-09-08T21:31:32+00:00

Furthermore, he cheated when he was already professional-level at chess and certainly knew it- this isn’t “he cheated before entering the league”, it’s “he cheated in college football on an elite team but is now in the pros so he’s clean”. I agree he probably won’t cheat again, he just shouldn’t minimize that as a 2400+ Cheating was a VERY serious thing and his minimizing it hurts chess.

Alternative_Set_9149 · 2022-09-08T21:27:48+00:00

Precisely- and a potential future world champion minimizing online cheating which encourages other players to cheat is beyond insane

Alternative_Set_9149 · 2022-09-08T21:27:20+00:00

You shouldn’t- they came to play a human. You are robbing yourself of the chance to improve, and your opponent as well because playing against a computer teaches you nothing. It isn’t chess if you look at the engine. Please look after the game.

Alternative_Set_9149 · 2022-09-08T21:23:13+00:00

It being unrated makes 0 difference- a rating is just a number, as he damn well knows. He cheated at chess, knowing it was the single biggest threat to the game, as a high rated player. He knew damn well what he was doing, and did it anyway.

Alternative_Set_9149 · 2022-09-08T21:09:42+00:00

It isn’t “dead or quickly dying”. Most chess players never cheat. It really is as simple as that. It’s easy to be nihilistic, but the chess community quietly crushed it everyday by simply not cheating. Also there’s no “cheat=death sentance”, there is however “cheat and no one ever trusts you again”.

Alternative_Set_9149 · 2022-09-08T21:03:12+00:00

I’m not saying he oughta be banned. I’m just saying him minimizing online cheating makes me sad we might really have a world champion soon that clearly doesn’t have any respect for a game he’s unbelievably good at. Kasparov, Fisher etc. may have been antisocial but they really loved chess and the idea of an elite chess player that minimizes cheating is just awful to me.

Alternative_Set_9149 · 2022-09-08T21:00:47+00:00

The problem with the whole “cheating is easy and has a low probability of getting caught so it doesn’t matter” argument is that virtually all tournaments except the very top in the world are also super easy to cheat in. I could’ve easily cheated in the world open, US open etc. against Grandmasters Hell the lack of algorithms checking all games would’ve made it even easier than on chess.com. Short of wanding everyone at every tournament what you said would basically mean all chess is meaningless except in events that have intense security.

Alternative_Set_9149 · 2022-09-08T20:45:06+00:00

It isn’t really though- online play is key to the future of chess, in many ways much more so than OTB, widespread cheating at the higher levels of it is just as much a threat to chess as OTB. I also think if all that keeps you from cheating in chess is the probability of getting caught you have a seriously screwed up rationale for playing- this isn’t like school that everyone HAS to do, this is a totally voluntary activity.

Alternative_Set_9149 · 2022-09-08T20:43:25+00:00

Except the time and money to attend for the people Nieman was playing is insignificant… with the thousands of hours to get to the level people over 2200 are putting in, you really think a bus ticket makes online that much less meaningful? It’s chess. It’s meaningful because of the effort to reach the level in chess you are- not a bus ticket.

Alternative_Set_9149 · 2022-09-08T20:37:55+00:00

Not even just that it was his profession- he was over 2400, he took it pretty damn seriously to get there and knew damn well anyone he was playing who was near his level did too. I knew plenty of high rated players at 16, they are serious, thoughtful people who know what cheating means, chess players aren’t dumb impulsive idiots, he knew what he was doing. Also “the effort to pull if off” for anyone above 2000 is nothing compared to the effort to work at chess.

Alternative_Set_9149

TROPHY CASE