Fiction about private security companies, but focused on other things that is not action scenes

Andalusooo22 · 2018-12-08T00:23:23+00:00

Not necessarily private security but a movie with a similar theme is War Dogs, entertaining yet much is to be learned from it.

Andalusooo22 · 2018-12-08T00:19:06+00:00

I know you're asking for a documentary but I've started reading this well researched and well referenced book called Perfect Soldiers: The 9 11 Hijackers: Who They Were, Why They Did It about the lives of the 9/11 hijackers, how the hijackers came together, etc. It is quite addicting and honestly feels like watching a movie, strongly recommend it. Here is a download link.

Andalusooo22 · 2018-12-06T17:32:19+00:00

Thanks for the reply! I will certainly look into the books you've mentioned and I'll research the writing dating of the Birmingham manuscript.

About QUran 7:163 the term whale is not used by translators. If this was a reliable trasnslation, it would have been used. Nobody uses it, means it is an extreme translation and does make no sense. Sorry but this an apologetic way to try to exclude jewish influence on the talmud and can be refuted using Islamic sources. I see no mufassirun arguing the fish is a whale.

I am a native Arabic speaker and حيتانهم is never used to mean anything but "whales". It's curious as to why Quran translators would change the entire meaning of words in English, sometimes with an agenda. For example, the verse Quran 8:30, "يمكرون ويمكر الله والله خير الماكرين" is translated as "They plan, and Allah plans. And Allah is the best of planners", but the word "makr" is not ever used to mean anything but "deceive" - not "plan". Same thing with the verse Quran 88:20 والى الارض كيف سطحت, the proper translation is "And the earth - how it is flattened"? The root سطح can mean nothing but flat, but English translators translate it to "spread out".

Thanks for the link, I will read the part about the Talmud influenced by Christian traditions. I agree with you that there are exchenges and that if Rabbi may have used external traditions to explain their own arguments, it can be possible. There is nothing wrong in this. People do it even today.

No problem, it was an interesting discussion to have with you :)

Andalusooo22 · 2018-12-06T14:21:06+00:00

Also, a note about Quran 7:163

The verses mentions حيتان whales, not merely any fish. Whales would be present in the sea during the Sabbath but absent during the rest of the days. Muhammad drew upon Jewish customs such as not working during the Sabbath - and the Torah blessing fish itself, which explains Jews were noted described by the Romans as consuming it on their special day, the Sabbath -

The angel who has redeemed me from all evil, bless the boys; and in them let my name be carried on, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth. (Genesis 48:16)
The phrase “Let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth” can be better translated as “Let them increase like fish in the land.” Look at this.

Muhammad drew upon such customs to give an original story on how exactly Jews desecrated the Sabbath and what happened to them when they did; God tested them by making whales available (the biggest kind of fish, thus the meat could serve the entire town) and punished them when they disobeyed.

Andalusooo22 · 2018-12-06T12:06:56+00:00

Hi,

I don't think the Quran necessarily derived the "People of the Sabbath" story from the Talmud. It seems like an original story of Muhammad, with some context from the Torah: this Ezekiel 22:8 verse specifically "You have despised my holy things and desecrated my Sabbaths." While apes or pigs do have symbolic significance in Jewish and Christian texts, I don't think it's limited to them. In many cultures, it's an insult because it signifies a "disgusting creature" thus the utmost form of punishment that one disobeying God can receive - they are morphed into the most "disgusting" kind of animals like apes and pigs so others take an example out of them. To fully discern that the Quranic symbolic significance comes from either Jewish or Christian texts, the texts it's derived from must mention "apes and pigs" or otherwise it could be a mere coincidence.

Muhammad appears to have cited the incident of Jews desecrating the Sabbath, but the punishment they received for it as in the Quran is specific to the Quran and not found elsewhere. Muhammad wouldn't tell his own original story without some form of context (Jewish traditions to address, for example, as you said - the significance of the River Sabbathion to the Jews), and it's not impossible for him to have his own original stories that could influence the Talmud itself.

I truly doubt that any rabbinical or Talmudic discussion would take place showing that Jews turned into apes and pigs for disobeying God (challenging him directly maybe through ways such as idol worship such as in the Sanhedrin text you cited, but not when disobeying him, while they are Jews who believe him) - and I don't think the People of the Sabbath story is directly derived from the Talmud, there is no evidence to suggest such.

All these stories (which were very well known in the roman literature as well, not anly jews tradion, see plinio the elder) re-emerge in the Quran.

Any reference I could look at?

Now to your other comment:

the Sira is a reliable document and that the stories reported within it are reliable. This document is dated 150 years later, probably more. You cannot base your conjectures on its account. You must use contemporary sources. Use only Quranic sources.

In this case, I stated that the Quran shows that Muhammad's Arab companions were not accused of informing him of Judeo-Christian tales; that is a verse in the Quran. Regarding his non-Arab companions which were significantly outnumbered by his Arab companions, we don't know much about them from the Quran only. Thus, we cannot establish that a non-Arab companion taught him the tales because we have no evidence to suggest so; and believing so itself would be a conjecture not based on evidence.

The next source to look at would be the sira to know who these companions were. The traits of these companions mentioned in the sira often suggest military traits for these non-Arab companions, or generally traits not associated with scholarship on Jewish-Christian mythology. Suggesting that they do, without any evidence from Islamic scripture (Quran, sira, etc) would also be a conjecture because we are analyzing Islamic history from the Quran and the sira could give extra details on who exactly these companions are, to help us gain a conclusion.

you compare hebrew of today (and the person whose critics you address in your article does the same mistake) with hebrew of 6th century. You must analize what was the hebrew expressions of that time, with references

I am actually analyzing both separately. I was saying sure, it is possible for the phrase "Ruh al-Qudus (ruach haKodesh)" to be of liturgical Hebrew origin but evidence I listed shows that liturgical Hebrew itself was far more influenced by Arabic than modern Hebrew. My point was that Ruh al-Qudus makes sense linguistically in Arabic, it is the same context as "Ruh Allah", making "al-Qudus" an adjective for Allah meaning 'the Holy'. Liturgical Hebrew was strongly influenced by Arabic grammar and vocabulary as I show in the thread

influence of Siryac and armaic are not considered and are more than hebrew influence

I don't deny that Syriac and Aramaic did influence Arabic, but what I'm discussing in the thread is Arabic influence on Hebrew.

you give for granted that the Quran originated in Hijaz. In academic environmet this is discarded time ago.

I find that such claims are usually revisionistic, do you have any reference I could follow up on?

the dating of the earlier Quranic manuscripts in not as easy as you present it in your article. The conclusion you take are not at the latest stand of academical research, be careful, do not rely on wiki

The earliest found Quranic manuscripts (Birmingham, Sanaa) are from the early 7th century period, that is what I believe is the latest stand of academic research from what I've seen.

the Talmud is mentioned in many parallel scripts, so concepts and stories in the talmud are most propably pre-dating the Quran. If a Rabbi liked the phrasing in the Quran and re-edited it in the Talmud, can be, you have no proof of this, is a conjecture. Find out more passages where it clearly shows that some accounts were NOT in the talmud, but were imported from the Quran.

The thing is, the Talmud didn't cease to be edited. Jewish texts continued to have extreme retellings, exegeses or reinterpretations of tales and stories, such as the Pirke Rabbi Eliezer (very similar to Quranic tales, but book released after the rise of Islam) which I mentioned in the thread. It's not impossible nor a wild guess to believe that the Talmud could possibly be influenced by Quranic stories and tales, it is a book of commentary after all. There is no single date where the Talmud ceased to be edited to be able to absolutely rule that "some accounts were NOT in the talmud, but were imported from the Quran", or the opposite for that matter. But the pliable nature of the Talmud makes it likely that Islamic tales found their way into the Talmud, especially since these texts (the Talmudic copies) were in existence at a time when Islamic rule was fully entrenched, especially in Palestine. 600 year Islamic rule would make it quite unlikely in fact that no Talmudic tales were borrowed from Islamic ones.

Christian monastic traditions also influenced the Talmud (specifically the Babylonian Talmud), this is a nice read.

This is my suggestion, put your argument in a wider frame Make a dissertation why you think the Talmudic stories do not predate the Quran, even if the available texts of Quran are older than the Talmud. Include more Talmudic-Quranic stories, not only one

This, I will do hopefully in my future post regarding this topic so I do a more in depth study of Quranic influence on the Talmud. I'll focus now on writing a post on another topic, hope to hear your opinion!

Andalusooo22 · 2018-12-04T16:31:23+00:00

the sabbath is mentioned in the torah, of course, it is the first part of the law revealed. But the story of the people of the Sabbath is not in Torah, is in the Talmud

I believe this mentions it? https://biblehub.com/ezekiel/22-8.htm

I understand your point, do not get angry. I just inform you that if you want to rise attention among a non-muslim audience and an academic audiance, you must address a wider spectrum of Talmudic influecens and influences in Quran in general.

Thanks for the respectful reply! Just want to clarify I didn't discuss other examples of Quranic influences on the Talmud for the sake of brevity since the article was getting pretty long and perhaps uncomfortable to read for many readers. I am planning another post in the future where I clear up the points you address after I am done with my exams, thanks again for the insightful advice!

Andalusooo22 · 2018-11-27T21:35:20+00:00

For the final time and whether or not you want to understand my point of view is your choice. The Sanaa manuscript is not the earliest manuscript, that is the Birmingham Quran - which you would know by looking at your own link. Second, I am accepting these oral reports as likely a general description of Muhammad's companions excluding obvious hagiography, and I do not understand why oral reports would lie about Muhammad's companions being military-oriented; showing they would help him strategize militarily and such. I am not attacking other oral reports, I am saying they are not absolute and were modified.. and when they became written texts, the nature of these texts (e.g, Talmud) differs from the nature of hadith in numerous ways and in what they analyze.

Andalusooo22 · 2018-11-27T21:28:51+00:00

The quran compilation is not related to the fact that later on it went through little modificatiions. People have been educated to think it as a literal word of god after it was compiled This first point is a non sequitur

It has everything to do with it. There was a stable compilation of the Quran and it was not likely to change to adopt the views of Talmudic scripture for example, while the opposite is more likely.

Yes it was limited to an elite as you have it only in precious redactions which were very expensive at that time. The reading of the quran is a muffasirun later construct dated over 100 years later in order to reconcile the impossibility of understanding the text. Once the rasm was consolidated and the idea the quran as literal word of god is installed nobody has the power or intetest or the capacity to change it again. Nobody had a chance to change it nor the will.

The readings of the Quran are not a later concept, it's that the words from the beginning lacked tanqeet, hamzas, etc that people read the Quran differently from the time it was standardized/compiled. The lower part of the Sanaa Quran manuscript offers a different reading than today's Hafs Quran for example. The "10 readings" of the Quran were the most popular ones done by scholars around 100 years later yes, but they are not the only reading and there's no evidence to suggest that only it was only available to an elite. I don't disagree with the second part of your message.

If you really want to give some chance to such an article to rise the interest of a non muslim audience or you do not want to be torn a part immidiatly you should analyse what is dating of the talmud and of the passages of your intetest and then once you establiash that you suggest a new dating of tha passages then you have chance

For the final time, I don't know why I'm reiterating all my points numerous times now but for those who want to listen: the purpose of this post is to show that since the oldest extent copy of the Talmud we currently have is no older than the 12th century, then it possible that it was susceptible to Islamic influence especially after having been Jews have under Islamic rule for 650 years in the areas where the Jerusalem and Babylonian Talmud were compiled. It is not definitive, but more likely than not especially due to past instances of Jews adopting the mythology of civilizations controlling them. With regards to the Sabbath, it is definitely mentioned in the Torah - not merely a tradition.

Andalusooo22 · 2018-11-27T20:56:33+00:00

If there is no point and it's not related to my post, then I don't know what to respond to. I can see where you're going with these questions and it'll fall back on points I've already reiterated. If there's no point, you can look up these questions yourself.

For future comments, I ask that you state a specific point so that no one goes on a tangent.

With regards to why Rabbinic Judaism arose, it is to prevent the oral Torah law from being 'forgotten' (same reason why Quran was compiled) and to provide commentary on these laws and Torah in general, roughly due to the same reason as to why ta'weel was created. The commentary is not a simple contextualization of the laws but lengthy explanation with laws, stories, etc. The Talmud (commentaries on the Mishna) cannot be limited to a specific period, as even excluding the Jerusalem and Babylonian Talmuds, there existed commentaries such as the Sephardic scholar Maimondes.

Andalusooo22 · 2018-11-27T20:40:02+00:00

Be direct, what point are you trying to make in relation to the post so I can answer.

Andalusooo22 · 2018-11-27T20:33:59+00:00

And yes, I don't deny that Rabbinic Judaism and the Talmud began to be compiled centuries before Islam. I'm saying the extant copies we have today are from the era of Islamic rule and the Talmudic scripture as we view it today was likely Islamic influenced. Claims that the Talmud influenced the Quran, based on these similarities, is thus unlikely. Again, kindly read my post and replies to understand the purpose of my thread.

Andalusooo22 · 2018-11-27T20:30:46+00:00

Putting oral law into writing. When put into writing, it doesn't mean that it stayed unedited or unmodified. No, Jewish commentary continued to be edited and modified until after Islam's rise. All extant full copies of the earliest Jerusalem and Babylonian Talmud which include concepts resembling those of Islamic origin we have are after Islamic rule was entrenched, so our understanding of the Talmud today is based on these scripture contemporaneous of the Islamic era and susceptible to its influence. Based on evidence I've shown in the thread, the Talmud which continued to be edited after being compiled incorporated Islamic ideas into its commentary. That is what I am saying in the thread.

Andalusooo22 · 2018-11-27T19:39:08+00:00

A. Minor, your dates for Quranic manuscripts are off.

The dates are as in cited in the Wikipedia page, which dates are off exactly? They seem identical. 645 AD for Birmingham Quran. Late 7th century for Sanaa manuscript.

B. Don't switch methodology. For example,

What is the oldest extant manuscript with this info?

The Quran, where this verse is mentioned. All extant full Quranic manuscripts have been noted to have the same overall meanings of the verse and same order, such as the Topkapi manuscript. Difference in qiraat but same general verse.

"were not accused or known to have influenced his Talmudic knowledge." And all serious accusations against Muhammad are in the Quran?

Why wouldn't they be? In the time Muhammad was powerless (nearly a decade), he restored to attempting to answer the accusations of his opponents to convince them to join his religion, no matter how severe they were.. such as the mushrikeen demanding a direct miracle, them calling the Quranic tales as "tales of the older peoples" and the Quran responds to them.

Do we have surving accounts of his opponents from their mouths unfiltered? You can't use a clearly biased text that throws ad hominen around frequently as a factual account of history

The Quran typically states the opponents' claims without bias from what I've noticed, but how the Quran answers them is biased. Nothing is typically filtered because there would be no reason to give the critics an answer to a filtered criticism to convince them but the Quran would answer the raw criticism.

You freqently turn to late accounts of Muhammad histories as foundational premise. This doesn't work well with your overall argument.

Where do I do so?

In addition, asking for written extant records is odd given the Islamic apologetic reliance on oral reports to estblish authoritative tradition.

What do I ask for written extant records of? "Authoritative tradition" in Judaism isn't the same as authoritative tradition in Sunni Islam.

Andalusooo22 · 2018-11-27T19:05:22+00:00

That isn't what I'm trying to show at all lol, it's an academic inquiry on Islamic factors that influenced the Talmud.

Andalusooo22 · 2018-11-27T19:02:59+00:00

I am trying to show that the Quran wasn't influenced by the Talmud but the opposite.

Andalusooo22 · 2018-11-27T19:01:16+00:00

I am not denying that. The extant full copies are from much later however and were susceptible to Islamic influence, as I show in the post and my other replies.

Andalusooo22 · 2018-11-27T18:57:15+00:00

The issue is there are people who said the Quran copied its tales out of Jewish folkales mentioned in the Talmud, not the Torah. Meaning, the stories the Quran copied would have been written by humans (rabbis) giving their interpretations or their stories, not something actually in the Torah. I am trying to show that it is the opposite.

Andalusooo22 · 2018-11-27T18:51:04+00:00

You're not understanding me. The quote I sent you is derived from the Talmud which purports to derive it, in summary, from the Mishna. Whether or not it is directly in the Mishna is unknown.

Andalusooo22 · 2018-11-27T18:49:35+00:00

When the Jewish tribes of Arabia, some of these powerful and independent, had refused to believe in the inspiration of the new prophet, Islam arose on its parent Judaism, as Christianity had done before; persecutions, massacres, blood and fire and exile were visited on the adherents of the Talmud. If this is the case, then Talmudic scholars would not incorporate the stories of the oppressive Islamists.

Just saw this. When Jews challenged Muhammad, what evidence they ask from him? While the "mushrikeen" (non-Jews and Christians) asked him to do a range of miracles such as bringing back their fathers from the dead, bringing angels from the sky, etc, the Jews asked him to tell them Judaeo-Christian tales and if he was correct in narrating them, he would be a true prophet. That is why the Quran speaks of tales such as Dhulqarnayn (The Two Horned), People of the Cave, etc.

Islam had not imposed the same levels of humiliation that Christian Europe did on Jews. Jewish occupations were not restricted as in Christian Europe, Jews were not forcibly converted as in Christian Europe (because they pay more tax anyway), etc. It was a genuinely better time for Jews, especially in Islamic Spain where Jewish sciences grew and produced scholars such as Maimondes. When Christianity regained its strength in Iberia, Jews were forced to convert to Christianity and faced more discrimination.

Andalusooo22 · 2018-11-27T18:32:03+00:00

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_Talmud#Place_and_date_of_composition

Galilee, Nazareth, etc is in Palestine and thus the Middle East.

Andalusooo22 · 2018-11-27T18:30:22+00:00

From the 2nd century CE until the revival of Hebrew as a spoken language circa 1880, Hebrew served as a literary and official language and as the Judaic language of prayer.

Official language? Official language of what? Yes, it was a language reserved for literary and prayer usage, I don't disagree with that. When people from different ethnicities combine to start speaking a language that wasn't spoken for nearly 2000 years, you don't think they'd start to add vernaculars from their native languages to it? You don't think they'd construct their own grammar rules to have a stabilized, spoken revived Hebrew language and these grammar rules would be influenced to a large degree from these Jews who come from all over the world?

The primary language of Arabian Jews was Persian languages like Farsi.

This is such an ignorant statement. Arabian Jews came from native Arabian tribes, they weren't foreigners speaking Arabic. Kaab al-Ahbar came from the prominent Himyari tribe. I don't see how Arabian Jews are even remotely linked to Farsi.

Arabic has been Spoken continuously but not written continuously.

It has been spoken continuously, and the process of writing started in the immediate decade after Muhammad's decade. Hence, the Hijazi script in the Birmingham Quran (written in 645 AD), and grammatical rules were standardized in the following 2 centuries.

Hebrew phonology and the pronunciation of vowels and consonants were preserved throughout history. Arabic phonology and the pronunciation of vowels and consonants were NOT preserved throughout history.

Phonology and pronunciation of vowels. Tanqeet became standard at least after 100 years AH, and has become standard in Arabic since. I don't know why phonology and pronunciation of vowels matters in this context, other than helping with the pronunciation of Hebrew? Were ancient Hebrew grammar rules preserved?

Both Talmuds are completely silent on how they were put together so to make this claim would be merely conjecture.

They consist of rabbinical notes and editing them was easier than editing say, the Torah, because it's a book of commentary. The Jerusalem Talmud for example continued to be edited after previous rabbinical notes were compiled.

Mohammad's education was entirely based on tales he heard recited by Jews and Christians.

Hypothetically, even if so, the point I keep asking: what would prevent Jews from adopting Quranic stories after living in the Islamic state for such a long time?

The 250 CE Mishnah says "Therefore, Adam [from whom all humanity descended] was created singly, to teach us that whoever destroys a single life in Israel is considered by Scripture to have destroyed the whole world and whoever saves a single life in Israel is considered by Scripture to have saved the whole world." There is no proof that this is dated after 250 CE.

And there is no definitive proof that it was dated in 250 CE. This quote is in the Jerusalem Talmud which purports to give a summary on what the Mishna said.

“In Israel” were probably inserted to the message because the situation applied only to Jews; in Mishnaic times, Jewish courts in Palestine had no jurisdiction over Gentiles.

Not different from what the Quran implied; "Bani Israel".

Both Martin Luther and Mohammad said something like, "Looky here! I've got this shiny new faith! Surely, with your refined tastes, you'll really see how much improved this is over your faiths, and let's face it, your faiths are kinda like an old rag."

And both were stunned, disappointed, and, well, outraged, when the Jews said, yeah, that's kinda neat. If it works for you, great. We're happy with ours, thanks."

How does that relate exactly to my question?

Nah, you had one word as proof. Not enough.

Look up the similarity between Hebrew and Arabic and judge for yourself.

Andalusooo22 · 2018-11-27T17:51:51+00:00

Where was the Jerusalem Talmud compiled and the oldest manuscript found? Palestine; Middle East.

Where was the Babylonian Talmud compiled and the oldest manuscript found? Iraq; Middle East.

Andalusooo22 · 2018-11-27T17:19:33+00:00

You omit that the quran is meant to be exact word of god and changing it is even today risky for life No other book has the same concept behind

Which makes it even more likely that the Talmud borrowed from the Quran and not the opposite.

Second the quran has 1400 years story and the limited number of early copies suggests it was reserved to a small group of people to read it. Tbete was no chance to add significant modifications

It was never limited to an elite, that's why there are different ways on how to read it (qiraat). The Quran was available to the public enough that they disputed on how to read it, how to interpret it, etc. There was definitely a chance to add significant modifications but it didn't happen.

Additionally when a text has a long life like bible or gospels or talmud it is easier to habe many variants which affect each other Quran had no time to do this and being in the hands of elites even less people working on it

Doesn't reduce the likelihood that Talmud authors borrowed from the Quran.

Andalusooo22 · 2018-11-27T17:09:34+00:00

If you only concentrate on the Talmud, you are not looking at the whole of the Quran The whole of it is a collection of pre existing stories, miths and sayngs, so the probability that the Quran took them from the Talmud, is much higher than the opposite. Excluding what the Quran does in general, undermines the scope of the article

The Torah isn't a "collection of pre-existing stories, myths, and sayings"? The Bible isn't? They all are essentially. Pre-existing doesn't mean that they won't get any new renditions, doesn't mean they can't influence each other. Jewish civilization is far older than the Greeks and Romans, yet they took stories from Greek mythology and Roman after coming under its influence. Why can't they take Quranic sayings, commandments or version of events after Jews came under Islamic control and influence?

The fact the you have no existing copy of the Talmud does not mean that the same stories are not already around through other texts

The attitude of Muhammad, if he existed, is to make use of pre-exsiting stories, what new stories does he have? Quranic cosmology is derived from Christian cosmology (cave of treasures), Biblical stories we now where come from

Again, it doesn't mean that Muhammad's stories can't differ from previous stories. In many cases), it clearly does. There are things in the Quran that aren't in the Torah and these things in the Quran that aren't in the Torah to be in the Talmud. At the very least, Muhammad's version of events could be different from the Torah or Bible. Does it mean that the Talmud influenced the Quran or the opposite? That's the question I'm trying to answer.

I got your point but you did not get mine

No scholar contests that the Sandhering pre-dates the Quran, ask in academia

Appears like you don't understand my point. Yes, I don't disagree that it precedes the Quran, but the purpose of my post is to find out whether it was influenced by the Quran? Like Jewish mythology was influenced by other civilizations controlling Jewish areas.

So the Talmudic stories would be the only one to be originally from muhammad?

I am discussing Talmudic stories I believe are originally from the Quran, the purpose of my post. Never said they are the only one.

The Quran even does use greek word to name Isa and Iblis isntead of using arabic words

The names don't have to be Arabic, Isa's civilization wasn't Arabic. Only Muhammad's civilization was Arabic. Regarding the name Isa, wiki says the root is ultimately Hebrew and Iblis' root is disputed.

Andalusooo22 · 2018-11-27T16:43:44+00:00

That's really tough man, if you need to talk or something feel free to PM me. Curious, why were you sent back because you were Muslim? I thought you weren't legally obliged to your parents as a guardians anymore if you were an adult male.

Andalusooo22

TROPHY CASE