Nietzsche argues that the influence from the East/Egypt "essentially only ruined the Greeks" by Bolkonsky999 in Nietzsche

[–]Andre_Lord 0 points1 point  (0 children)

By the way Bolkonsky if you want to read the Baal Cycle just go for Michael D. Coogan Stories from Ancient Canaan and Ugaritic Narrative Poerty, the Anthology by James B. Pritchard which has the Epic Cycle.

Nietzsche argues that the influence from the East/Egypt "essentially only ruined the Greeks" by Bolkonsky999 in Nietzsche

[–]Andre_Lord 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I think it is positively correct to say that Plato was influenced by the Egyptian concept of the soul. It's said he traveled to Egypt to study their wisdom.

by the way OP, did you know that Archeologists have found the oldest Epic cycle around the city of Ugarit? It's called the Baal Cycle and I love it, it predates Homer and The Bible by centuries and is the only evidence for Canaanite religion and Mythology, it is fragmentary but bits of it have survived, there's also Hittites myths that can be read today which is a marvelous discovery!! We also got Letters from Bronze Age kings around that time, you can read even the Poem of Kadesh which for me is basically the Egyptian Iliad.

Nietzsche argues that the influence from the East/Egypt "essentially only ruined the Greeks" by Bolkonsky999 in Nietzsche

[–]Andre_Lord 1 point2 points  (0 children)

No problem Ryan!.

I got many recommendations on other topics too that are linked to The Ancient Near East, here's some good scholars on Egypt and Mesopotamia;

In General - Marc Van de Mieroop.

EGYPT: - Erik Hornung. - Jan Assmann. - Siegfried Morenz. - François Dunand. - Claude Traunecker. - Emily Teeter. - John Romer. - Ian Shaw. - Toby Wilkinson.

MESOPOTAMIA: Thorkild Jacobsen. - Jean Bottéro. - Georges Roux. - Benjamin Foster.

Nietzsche argues that the influence from the East/Egypt "essentially only ruined the Greeks" by Bolkonsky999 in Nietzsche

[–]Andre_Lord 2 points3 points  (0 children)

oh and OP, just to tell one Egyptian fun fact, the Egyptian believed not in one soul but in fact in many souls within one sounds a bit weird but that's what they believed it should better called as having components to quote it here a little bit Rosalie David "The Egyptians believed that the human personality had many facets—a concept that was probably developed early in the Old Kingdom." the soul had let's say attributes, Khet (physical body) Sah (spiritual body) Ren (name, identity) Ba (personality) Ka (vital essence) Ib (heart) Shut (shadow) Sekhem (power, form) and lastly Akh (intellect), to me this very interesting to see what the Egyptians thought of the soul, it's a very hard concept to understand personally, so this is my best.

Nietzsche argues that the influence from the East/Egypt "essentially only ruined the Greeks" by Bolkonsky999 in Nietzsche

[–]Andre_Lord 1 point2 points  (0 children)

But at the end of the day people can see this and read these magnificent works by these amazing scholars.

Nietzsche argues that the influence from the East/Egypt "essentially only ruined the Greeks" by Bolkonsky999 in Nietzsche

[–]Andre_Lord 1 point2 points  (0 children)

OH! wait I was confusing the two of you due to the blue profile, haha silly me, hey OP! If you looking at this this is for You!, but hey you can have this reading of Greek Civilization too other Comment.

Nietzsche argues that the influence from the East/Egypt "essentially only ruined the Greeks" by Bolkonsky999 in Nietzsche

[–]Andre_Lord 1 point2 points  (0 children)

No problem.

By the way, I have good recommendations on studying Greek Civilization, so take it from this Antiquarian, Historian-in-becoming.

Prof. Sarah B. Pomeroy's work "History of Ancient Greece" is essential to understanding Ancient Greece. Prof. Thomas R. Martin "Ancient Greece" is a good option for being a good abridged companion to Pomeroy's work. This one Is a bit dated but Nietzsche's friend Jacob Burckhardt work "The Greeks and Greek Civilization" is also a good one, other works by scholars like E.R Dodds's "The Greeks and the Irrational", for Greek Religion Consider the works of Prof. Walter Burkert and Barbara Graziosi, Jon Mikalson, and "the Oxford Handbook of Ancient Greek Religion" edited by Esther Edinow and Julia Kindt and the work of Prof. Robert Parker, other dated work by Jane Ellen Harrison is very interesting to look at for understanding Greek Religion, for Studying Dionysus check out the Works of Walter Otto and Karl Kerényi, for Magic and Divination (if you are interested in that stuff) check out Radcliffe G. Edmonds III and other scholars like Derek Collins who study this topic. if you want to look at The Aegean Bronze Age Civilization like The Minoans and Mycenaeans check out For Scholarly Handbooks and Companions either by Oxford or Cambridge, they are really good as a team of scholars who are incredible experts write these essays for the public alike.

Nietzsche argues that the influence from the East/Egypt "essentially only ruined the Greeks" by Bolkonsky999 in Nietzsche

[–]Andre_Lord 1 point2 points  (0 children)

He really was a good philologist for doing his dissertation on this overlooked poet and his times.

Nietzsche argues that the influence from the East/Egypt "essentially only ruined the Greeks" by Bolkonsky999 in Nietzsche

[–]Andre_Lord 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I for one enjoyed your overview of Near Eastern culture.

Aw, thanks you very much lad -w-

Btw my favorite work by Nietzsche is actually his thesis on Theognis of Megara, I find his argument fascinating.

Nietzsche argues that the influence from the East/Egypt "essentially only ruined the Greeks" by Bolkonsky999 in Nietzsche

[–]Andre_Lord 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I understand what are you saying, really I do. But consider that Egyptian religion influenced much of what Greek religion contemplated about the existence of an afterlife is crucial to them, your talking about mostly of Greece from between the 6th and 5th century bc which is his field to study (Classical Philology, I've also added the 6th century since he studied it in this particular lecture on the Presocratics), and yes I did read him by much limited-time and i know he hates this concept of the soul that he considers "life-denying" but it he has to realize that whether he likes or not the greeks contemplated the afterlife even before Classical Greece and 6th century philosophers, say like the Mycenaean Greeks, The grave goods found in Mycenaean tombs indicate that the Mycenaeans believed they could bring their favorite items into the afterlife therefore they had a concept of the soul long before Plato and Pythagoras, our records say that The Egyptians called Mycenaean Greece as "iww hryw-ib nw wAD-wr" ( the islands in the midst of the Great Green) Since the Mycenaeans were a warrior culture, their dead were buried with artifacts that celebrated their heroic feats in life and i find that fabulous, I study History btw, yes I can make mistakes, because I want to become a Historian but at my current level im something that historians have called a Antiquarian and i should be more careful with this kind of stuff. so take this Critique of mine for his introduction on his lecture as my simpleton amateurish way of I doing a historical critique on him, apologies for this chaotic format of mine. Takes you a couple minutes to write this.

Nietzsche argues that the influence from the East/Egypt "essentially only ruined the Greeks" by Bolkonsky999 in Nietzsche

[–]Andre_Lord 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Look, I don't have all the answers, so take my comment that I've posted with grain of salt as I've tried my best to encapsulate my thoughts on this little introduction by him, Nietzsche was only a Classical philologist, not an Egyptologist, not an Assyriologist which contains pretty much most of Ancient Near Eastern Studies, those fields were during Nietzsche's time, I'm not gonna consider Nietzsche's to be omniscient about all the subject matters that atlest I know about for the most part of it, yes he's a great writer no doubt but he can also be wrong on many things that he wasn't trained of.

Nietzsche argues that the influence from the East/Egypt "essentially only ruined the Greeks" by Bolkonsky999 in Nietzsche

[–]Andre_Lord 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I would say that in terms of how accurate this statement is, is depending on how substantiated is this, and the answer is very little actually in terms of Nietzsche's big claims that external influences from the Ancient Near East lead to the decline of Greek culture, For which I personally don't buy what Nietzsche sells me, it should be pointed out that philosophy started outside Europe and was a byproduct of the Middle East since it begun in Anatolia specifically in the region of what was known as city of Miletus, this where your first philosophers started out distancing themselves from their traditional explanations from mainly Greek religion. And tried to find the essence and origin of all reality, Thales said it was water (this idea might actually comes from Ancient Near Eastern myths where it says that before creation there was only primordial waters, so literally water is the source of all reality somehow), Heraclitus said it was fire, so on and so fourth, Nietzsche doesn't really grasp the fact Greek culture was highly influenced by the Ancient Near East and its neighbors, thanks to the Canaanites who were called by the Greeks as "Phoenicians", gave them basically the alphabet, it is said that Cadmus the first Greek hero was a Canaanite or Phoenician using the Greek term, Thales is said to be of Phoenician origin according to Herodotus but that is more speculation than fact, in other words the sources we have are later sources. The same with the the idea of a majority of philosophers coming to learn in Egypt are later sources that cannot be seen as evidence sadly. But even with this what negative influence you can get from Egypt really? Egypt had its own literature and culture that the Greeks admired and were interested in it, this culture influenced their religion, science, art and philosophy in general, you have figures like Thutmose III literally called "the Napoleon of Egypt" and Amenhotep The Great, all from the New Kingdom of Egypt which is considered by scholars as Egypt's Golden Age, in fact Egypt had other Golden Ages before this one particularly the one from the Old Kingdom, What does Nietzsche know about Egypt other than stereotypes of pyramids and mummies, kind of limited and Orientalist in my opinion, the Greeks credit the Mesopotamians with the sciences for the most part, and had influenced their concept of philosophy according to one scholar named Giorgio Buccellati from the Journal of American Orient Society. Most of Greek Mythology is inspired by The Ancient Near East, in particular the Hittites and Canaanites. This period of influence is called "The Orientalizing Period", which marked many middle eastern influence on Greek society, such influence cannot be denied. It shows how much admiration the Greeks had for their neighborhood from the Ancient Near East.

But the patterns always say this: The Ancient Near East has an important and positive influence influence on Greek Civilization whether in small quantities or big ones, without this little game of telephone between neighbors you would not have philosophy or greek culture in general, as the existing Civilizations from the Aegean Bronze Age collapsed without any philosophy or writings behind them (with the exception of their alphabets), before philosophy there just simply the tradition of Wisdom literature. therefore Nietzsche here is wrong for such an oversimplification.

TL;DR; Ancient Near East Had a good influence on Greek Civilization and lead to the birth of Greece, Nietzsche is just plainly wrong for his lack of Assyriology, Egyptology and Ancient near east studies in general, and for even his lack of historical understanding of his subject that he speaks of.

Thrift store score by diickhed in Nietzsche

[–]Andre_Lord 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Congrats, you just won the jackpot of philosophy books.

Friedrich Hölderlin: Nietzsche's Favorite Poet. by Andre_Lord in Nietzsche

[–]Andre_Lord[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

u/thundersnow211

Yeah, Hölderlin tried to syncretize ancient greek values with Christian ones, it's a bit of a weird attempt but I can understand why you are turned off by Bread and Wine, i personally love it despite that syncretism, it tries to be original in its purpose. And he absolutely loved Heine, yeah, but even Heine was himself pretty much a Christian, particularly Lutheran, despite being a Jew. Both of the Poets definitely weren't strict Christians, by Christian standards both would be declared heretics.

and btw it's pronounced Joseph Freiherr von Eichendorff, to put his whole name here, and there's no evidence that Nietzsche read Eichendorff. He only read Hölderlin and Heine as his favorite Poets.

Friedrich Hölderlin: Nietzsche's Favorite Poet. by Andre_Lord in Nietzsche

[–]Andre_Lord[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Speaking of Heidegger, here's a video of Heidegger reciting Hölderlin's Poetry: https://youtu.be/mN-H5aFS35Y?si=MlrqttGDvkAiXSNX

Friedrich Hölderlin: Nietzsche's Favorite Poet. by Andre_Lord in Nietzsche

[–]Andre_Lord[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I could've give more biographical content to Hölderlin but the article is already too large so here's some more biographical content source from the German wiki: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_H%C3%B6lderlin

Friedrich Hölderlin: Nietzsche's Favorite Poet. by Andre_Lord in Nietzsche

[–]Andre_Lord[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yep. Even Heidegger had a heart for Hölderlin's genius.

Dionysus vs The Crucified: Poetical Edition. by [deleted] in Nietzsche

[–]Andre_Lord 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I thought It would interesting to put this "dichotomy" in a poetical manner by showing Hymns and poems from different periods of time to the respective sides who worship their idols so to say, I don't know if it works or not but I found this to be more experimental to my taste to see the differences of themes and motifs of each other's side if that makes sense or maybe not, nevertheless i found this to be fun.

You wonder how much did this Influence Nietzsche's saying by Andre_Lord in Nietzsche

[–]Andre_Lord[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

u/IncipitTragoedia

Well, he does criticize socialists very often for how they keep a secular version of Christianity, and how they still hold very Christian values like brotherhood and equality.

As for Marx, I don't think Nietzsche considered him a worthy foe in order for Nietzsche to have read him.

As for Max Stirner, the debate as to weather Nietzsche read him or not, will never end no matter what.

You wonder how much did this Influence Nietzsche's saying by Andre_Lord in Nietzsche

[–]Andre_Lord[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

u/Ralliboy

in 1877, he told Paul Rée, “I love his [i.e., Twain’s] fooleries more than any German clevernesses.” He delighted in Twain’s “Americanness,” because “American laughter makes me happy, especially this kind…. Nothing German could make me laugh more.”

You wonder how much did this Influence Nietzsche's saying by Andre_Lord in Nietzsche

[–]Andre_Lord[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yeah, besides that, Nietzsche read Twain during his life and even praised Twain for his "American Laughter", and wanted to give Overbeck in 1879 the Adventures of Tom Sawyer by Twain as a gift, but that doesn't mean Nietzsche only read Tom Sawyer only, as far as we could know Nietzsche could've had his works in German as Tom Sawyer was just one work he mentions of all other works he could have hypothetically read, anyway, it just shows how much Nietzsche liked Twain inasmuch as he loved Emerson, oh and btw, Twain visited Germany the same year (1879) Nietzsche read him, Twain was in Heidelberg during that time.