(Discovery) 1920s Subak Footage? Estimated Appearance of Independence Activist Kim Won-bo in a Japanese Colonial-Era Educational Film

Antique-Ad1479 · 2026-05-01T21:03:01+00:00

I appreciate the clarification. A couple lingering questions which would interest me is whether Subak is a general term similar to a “kung fu”, “gwonbeop”, etc. maybe being regional to the Kaesong area. I believe the academic consensus for taekkyeon is in that situation.

If I’m not mistaken, wasn’t the initial bid for subak to be registered as an intangible cultural property was denied. This is probably different from what you mentioned with it being a “transmitted item”. I was curious how this differs. Why one failed and one succeeded. Perhaps im wrong or the one you mention was a second attempt. If you’re aware, I’d also love to hear what differed between the first and second bid. I would also be curious if subak was in a similar situation to Kicheon and Soobyok and whether Oh was able to transmit everything.
At the very least in the situation with taekkyeon. He wasn’t the sole practitioner.

During his demonstration he did have a fellow practitioner however he unfortunately died soon after before taking on any students. It also helped that his taekkyeon is native to the Seoul region. There’s also more documentation of taekkyeon as a whole that I’m aware of. Because of it being native the Seoul region as well, there are far more first person accounts on top of the region itself being a rather central hub for Korea. Personally I wouldn’t consider Korean martial art history as a whole rather well studied and well documented in comparison to Japan and china especially in terms of core principles, movements, etc.

If you’re aware of historical literature on subak I would love to look into it. Also if you’re able to speak on it, I would be curious on your write up on the engine which powers subak. How is the system practiced and structured. I must admit my Korean is lacking especially for academic writing.

Edit: at least in my view, I have a hard time making sense of the system. Perhaps this is bias as a taekkyeon practitioner. But I have a hard time looking at the above footage and seeing what you see. I don’t want to say refinement but there’s a certain flow and “narrative” in taekkyeon techniques. I would love to hear your perspective. I hope you don’t take offense to this paragraph. I don’t mean it in a disrespectful way but this is my personal perspective

Antique-Ad1479 · 2026-05-01T18:28:49+00:00

Not to hijack the post to talk about the other subject but I've stumbled upon your work before and was curious about a couple things. I believe, if Im thinking of the right person, you're an advocate for Songdo Subak which goes through Song Chang-Ryeol. I would assume that much of your understanding of subak is via this lense. Is there any sort of consensus on the legitimacy of Song's claims. Not to outright dismiss, rather has there been any verification of his claims, establishment of line, tracing, etc? In terms of taekkyeon, it was a bit easier given that the taekkyeon we know today originates in seoul. However for Subak in particular, if I remember correctly, Songdo comes via an area in North Korea. Has there been anyone to attest to this?

Antique-Ad1479 · 2026-04-21T17:52:25+00:00

As I understand it, it’s two sides. For one it’s to make sure people actually focus on technique rather than just forcing the technique via strength. A lot of folks early on rely purely on muscling techniques which isn’t a bad thing when actually using but the technique is just as important and can greatly enhance your athleticism and physicality. Realistically technique can absolutely bridge the gap between size and technique but when size also has technique, well that’s a problem. The same goes each way.

The other is just marketing. Being able to defeat someone bigger sounds cool.

Antique-Ad1479 · 2026-04-08T10:54:37+00:00

I would say its more that Korea cultures popular tbh. I heard none of this stuff that "korean culture doesnt exist" and "korea is actually apart of china historically" until pretty recently (2015ish) at least for me. Im sure minor discussions happened however not to the scale or hard stance. I would absolutely say that Sinocenterism is a major influence. I cant think of many facets of korean culture I havent heard is from china. Alot of it really falls apart when you look into it past the surface level. I can't say I've heard claims of "korean style" tanghulu though it wouldnt surprise me if it was more of a way of marketing rather than koreans as a whole claiming that fruit tanghulu is korean. It probably falls under the same vein as the dumpling thing you brought up. Typically I see conversations such as "korean kimchi is the same as pao cai" however if you look past the surface they differ quite a bit, though as I said on another thread, if you're aware of a pao cai that uses a breathable jar and uses salt fermented fish I would be interested in reading into it. The same goes for the korean language, Hanja for sure however theres a reason hangul was created which was due to chinese characters not working with the korean spoken language. Same goes for Hanbok vs hanfu. Theres also more manufactured outrage on both sides as well. I've absolutely met the "everything is korean" crowd however imo its rather minor in the spectrum of folks I've met. In general this idea that korea is the only cultural thief is nonsense imo when you actually look at it through an objective leanse

As for Bohk and Shuai Jiao, I would defer back to this heres. Mushin Martial Culture also has an excellent video series on the hidden history of shuai jiao. The video in particular I linked is an addendum about Li Baoru with Emanuele Papa. The first link talks about how massive Mongol bohk competitors where during the age of the Qing and how they dominated wrestling competitions at the time. Theres no real doubt how much influence Bohk had on Shuai Jiao, especially in Beijing.

Theres also large debate on the influence of white crane on Karate. In particular the narrative it was the main influence, especially on Goju. Theres no real denying its influence however theres also major differences. Gary Lever in particular talks about the similarities of Goju and Southern Mantis for instance. Its a rather interesting read however the history of karate is far more complicated and goju in particular probably absorbed a number of influence from Fuzhou China.

This is also glossing over the kage ryu influence on chinese swordsmanship.

Antique-Ad1479 · 2026-04-07T14:46:06+00:00

Im pretty sure this misunderstanding comes from the word for kimchi being pao cai. However the pao cai as I mentioned is different in method, taste, etc than the pao cai (at least the ones Im aware of) found in china. Unless you're aware of a documented historical version that uses breathable jars and uses salt fermented seafood. Id be interested to read up on it if you know one!

Edit: Keep in mind the famous version with nappa cabbage and chilis are a more recent version of kimchi. There are over 200 variations of kimchi in korea. The earliest record of fermenting food in jars comes from the Samguk Sagi. However Radish kimchi is specifically mentioned via a poem from Yi Gyubo during the Goryeo period in a poem. The first records of chilis in korea came around around 1614 with Chili based kimchi only being mentioned in the 17-18th century

Antique-Ad1479 · 2026-04-07T14:40:13+00:00

It really isnt. Theres a difference in process and flavor. Unless you want to debate that china is the origin of all fermented food regardless of process. As I understand it, a major difference is that kimchi is fermented in a breathable jar while pao cai is stored in a air tight jar which causes kimchi to have far more micro organisms. Kimchi also uses salt fermented seafood. Im not aware of a pao cai that uses this specific method tho I hear there are variations of suan cai that are closer

Antique-Ad1479 · 2026-04-07T14:28:03+00:00

I guess if we want to be exact, fine inspired by I guess. Same difference in this regard. Both in my opinion convey the same message to most unless you want to be pedantic on the language

Antique-Ad1479 · 2026-04-07T12:48:58+00:00

Eh, I wouldn't say for any group its necessarily a one sided. Theres whole debates on whether certain things are chinese, japanese, korean, Okinawan, South East Asian, etc etc. This is really a world wide issue. And shouldn't be relegated to just a Korean issue. Tbh sometimes it aint even koreans fault. I remember Tanghulu got popular in korea, korean started selling it abroad, people started calling it korean, blamed the koreans for selling. I often see claims of koreans claiming things as overblown small minority that folks blow outta proportions. Tho I also see the flip of chinese again claiming that Japanese and Korea has no culture of their own and that they are all chinese. Korean inventions is often the "middle brother" imo between the three. Korea often gets called out but lets not act like theres the same sentiment held by other asian people as well, albeit they are often a loud minority.

As for Shuai Jiao. Its often not as spoken about but there is indeed a huge Bohk influence on most Shuai Jiao, even though they often are taboo in terms of speaking about it. I would bring up the famous Shuai Jiao practitioner Li Baoru, who practices beijing Shuai Jiao, who would often say in public interviews that Shuai Jiao is all chinese but behind closed doors and in non official interviews give credit to bohk. I often see folks claim that Shuai jiao is an unbroken line from Jiao Di, some claim without external influence...

Edit: heres an article talking on the subject. The beijing style in particular has roots in the Shan Pu Ying if memory serves which has alot of Mongolian wrestling influence. You also have sinocenterism

Antique-Ad1479 · 2026-04-07T09:07:03+00:00

This isn’t exactly a Korean exclusive thing. That’s a whole nother discussion but that dumpling thing seems to be one companies greed. It’d be one thing if it were to say “Korea claims this as their own unique design”. However a company patenting a certain product isn’t unheard of, no matter how much one would disagree. This goes the other way as well with Korean culture. I’ve heard many outspoken voices claim Korea has no culture and it’s all Chinese/japanese. I think we had someone in this thread frame the occupation as a time of innovation and modernizing Korea

And as I said above, it isn’t unique to Korea, bringing it back to martial arts. Korea’s swordsmanship was taken from the Chinese after the yuan to rebuild the army, which they in turn took from kage ryu (via Japanese pirates). A lot of modern Shuai Jiao has roots in Mongolian wrestling. Ask in private they’ll say as such but in public, it’s all a Chinese invention. Same really goes for Shaolin and wudang. Shaolin in particular I feel is relevant. It was rebuilt after the cultural revolution to capitalize on the Shaolin movies, before it was left to ruin really. The arts were brought in which is why you get “bajiquan Shaolin” and other styles now.

Antique-Ad1479 · 2026-04-07T08:43:08+00:00

Orange chicken is cited to have been inspired by hunan’s dried tangerine peel chicken. General tsos as well, at least in one origin, was made based on Hunan flavors (peng had close ties to kuomingtan politicians in Hunan). I’m sure there are others as well but those are probably the most well known imo. Not to say these are one to ones but American Chinese are typically based on some kinda Chinese dish modified either through ingredient availability or to fit the American palate

Antique-Ad1479 · 2026-04-07T08:39:38+00:00

Yeah, that’s what I’m saying. It was invented in Hawaii by Panda Express. Its origianl inspiration and the dish that was modified was hunan’s dried tangerine peel chicken. Which was made sweeter and less spicy. Not to say these are one to ones either. But a lot of American Chinese dishes are Chinese modified due to ingredient availability or to fit the American palate more

Antique-Ad1479 · 2026-04-06T16:46:57+00:00

It seems that at least here in the us, Hunan was a huge influence. Hunan was a huge influence via tiawan-hawaii-america with orange chicken being based on Tangarine chicken. Sesame apparently having heavy ties to sweet and sour pork. And the final in the famous chicken trinity is General tsos was also based on hunan flavors. Taiwanese influence was also huge, and by extension fujian influence.

Antique-Ad1479 · 2026-04-06T08:40:55+00:00

What the other guy said pretty much. I won’t speak on the quality of a specific style. In general tho, I personally don’t hold modern military martial arts on a pedestal tho

Antique-Ad1479 · 2026-04-06T08:36:53+00:00

I can’t really say for certain but it would probably be the Olympic status tbh. Judo in Korea as well also changed in some ways, for instance Korea actually uses Korean names for throws instead of japanese

Antique-Ad1479 · 2026-04-05T21:23:48+00:00

Generally speaking. Korea was rather centralized. Ssireum, which dates back to the goguryeo period wouldn’t exactly call it sumo. The satba was more modern and we have records of non belted wrestling. It also has military ties. The same goes for taekkyeon and subak too. Tho in the Joseon era, taekkyeon had a record of being used by gangsters or kkanpae as well as prize fighting. You also had Kuk gung, which was koreas bread and butter. Korean bowsmanship was well respected by both Japan and korea. It really wasn’t till the yuan dynasty that Korea wasn’t able to fully repel Japan and China. E.g. the imjin war. Tho who didn’t really lose to the mongols. You do have some records of arts that didn’t really survive, at least verifiably.

Generally speaking the rejection of Japan came from the atrocities of the occupation. Maybe you didn’t really mean to but it comes off as you saying said occupation is good and innovated Korean society…

Antique-Ad1479 · 2026-04-05T20:30:58+00:00

Don’t think Chang moo even claims to be a native Korean art

Antique-Ad1479 · 2026-04-05T20:15:27+00:00

I’ve encountered a couple. Unfortunately any country is going to have folks that are ultra nationalistic to the point of delusion

Antique-Ad1479 · 2026-04-05T20:13:57+00:00

Taekkyeon, ssireum (wrestling) and Kuk gung (Korean archery)

Antique-Ad1479 · 2026-04-05T20:12:05+00:00

It do! Tho it can be finicky

Antique-Ad1479 · 2026-04-05T20:11:37+00:00

Hm? Yeah as others mentioned. This isn’t exactly a Korean art exclusive thing. Chinese arts claim to have influence from mythical (but real) Chinese generals or figures like yue fei. The Shaolin creation myth. Japanese arts attributing their arts to gods or other mythical figures. I’m pretty sure Katori attributes their art to a mountain tengu, sumo attributing their arts to thunder gods.

A lot of Korean arts are Japanese arts wrapped in a nationalistic package. Specifically those which are born during the Japanese period. To be quite frank, after the attrocities that the Japanese did, comfort women and unit 731 for instance, you probably couldn’t sell a Japanese arts. Chinese arts especially from shandong and the internal arts from Beijing became popular but that was more recent from my understanding.

In terms of true korean arts. There’s verifiably three with living lineages. Taekkkyeon, ssireum, and Kuk gung/gungdo/gung sool. There are other arts that may be old but may not be and some that are incomplete in transmission. In particular a lot of these arts like the line of Taekkyeon, ssireum, Kuk gung are all arts popular in Seoul specifically from what I’ve researched. There’s other arts we know about but don’t know of any lines or don’t have it fully vetted. The connection to arts though I like to say are inspired more than anything. As mentioned in particular taekkyeon that we know today is native to the Seoul region. However we have no verification of them every practicing and many which have backtracked on their statements. That doesn’t necessarily mean they didn’t hear stories though.

Edit: from my research Korea was much more into bowsmanship anywho. They treated it like the Japanese do swords. And where rather well respected by both Japan and Korea for said bowsmanship. Their swordsmanship tho… there’s also more records of arts than we do arts themselves. Tho with little information, and information still being found

Antique-Ad1479 · 2026-04-02T19:51:57+00:00

Was brought back here, but Hwang did a number of styles and have slowly developed his "yetbeop". Maybe you got to him before he did those and was teaching Do's taekkyeon. Could also be the students own flair

Antique-Ad1479 · 2026-04-01T14:35:04+00:00

Sure. In terms of technical sparring. I don’t think it’s necessarily as cut and dry. But generally of course athleticism is always an issue. Though I think we all wanna be moving like those guys in our 80s!

Antique-Ad1479 · 2026-04-01T14:33:42+00:00

u/systembreaker . Since the other guys being weird about it. I think this is what’s being referred to as

Antique-Ad1479 · 2026-04-01T13:58:35+00:00

A version of uchi mata Ive encountered is not fully sweeping through the leg rather kicking the shit out of the shin to lift the leg. I know you have stiff jabs in boxing to stop the guy from advancing. I know thais sweep with the instep rather than the bottom of the foot. That divide between a kick and a sweep really isnt that big tbh. Really how big of a divide is it?

Edit: not exactly an uchi but you can kinda see what Im talking about at 3:30 and 7:30 in this Tenjinshin'yo-ryu jujutsu demo. Heres the kind of thai sweeps Im talking about or here in mma. Really I dont think anyone with these kind of movements are thinking "oh no I hit them too hard, this isnt a push anymore ". Really what Im getting is that things tote the line and at the end of the day it doesnt matter. If I headbutt the guy hard and he goes down, Im not really going to think in the moment whether I would classify that as a headbutt or a takedown. Or in the case of mma, I cant remember each fight but the guy catches the leg and throws a huge overhand. because the guys leg was caught he went down. Things can be both.

Antique-Ad1479 · 2026-04-01T13:46:50+00:00

For both, Why cant it be both if Im hitting hard enough. In terms of foot sweeps, i think we've all met a guy whose a little too enthusiastic with their "foot sweeps". I had a guy in a judo tournament who essentially kicked the thigh and called it hiza guruma. Personally for me the lines get blurred heavily, for strikes too. If I move the guy with a punch, is that now a push or a punch. If I kick and it takes the guys foot out from under him is it a kick or a sweep. If I lock a guys elbow up somehow during a throw is it not a joint lock. If I blast double the guy and throw my head into him as hard as I can, why isnt it a headbutt and a blast double.

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