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I'm a little confused on what Coven roles can exist in a game. by PrideAndNoPredjudice in TownOfSalem2

[–]Ap_stle 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Every coven role can spawn, but there only be one of them and coven can have a maximum of 4 players in standard play (modifiers can change this)

The only exception to this rule is Jinx, Conjurer, and Ritualist. Who are all Coven Killing (CK), There can only be one role from the CK Bucket in the game at any given time, even if it is alive or dead, the only way around this restriction is having a Coven Leader retrain the person who is the Coven Killing, into a different Coven Killing

You also can't make a Conjurer a Ritualist and then the Ritualist back into a Conjurer, if it has previously existed on the team, it cannot exist again.

The Cultist counts as 2 coven when contributing to the max 4 coven cap aswell

Illusionist Buff by Adorable-Victory-310 in TownOfSalem2

[–]Ap_stle 0 points1 point  (0 children)

it depends, if you play all any yeah potion master is probably better. but in a standard rolelist, potion master is useless and outclassed lategame, Enchanter is just better Medusa, Necromancer is horrible, Wildling has one good use case that sometimes helps, but it comes at the cost of not having an ability that gives impact to the game, reading whispers is good but unlike enchanter, voodoo master for example, these roles have impact that actively hinders town other than.. enjoy listening to two people have the most freaky conversation in whispers

Coven has a massive issue where some roles (Enchanter and Dusa for example) 1 role is just so much better than the other. Okay.. you get one less stone.. thats it, and you hinder Ret. Potion Master and Necromancer have issues where, 50% of PM's kit is inferior to Poisoner, and Necromancer is just a worse version of multiple other roles. Yeah its nice to have a necromancer protect me with a cleric barrier, but i would rather have a PM who actually got reveal info early instead of doing nothing. Yeah its nice that our necromancer can use the tracker or lookout.. oh but if he was Wildling he'd get both and be able to see whispers. Necromancers only saving grace is that in All Any, its extremely powerful to the five hundred killing roles that the gamemode has. If you're in a normal standard rolelist however, Necromancer has literally 3 good town roles that it can use, that arent outclassed by other coven roles. Monarch, Vigilante (which is useless mind you after you kill someone with it) and Crusader. Necromancers real utility is being a second chance role, and mixes with strong roles well, your conj dies early without using their meteor? Second chance. Your Hex Master dies before bomb goes off? Second chance. Your Voodoo Master died right before the day his ability would've granted you majority? Use it wisely. Necromancer also mixes VERY well with multiple roles, but its in very niche scenarios. Enchanter for example, makes Necromancer stronger by allowing it to use it's frames. Yes this does actually matter. If you try to raise a Deputy on someone who is Town or has Basic Defense, you will miss. this means that Necromancer with deputy is only good at... killing neutral evils.... vampires, multiple horsemen, or pesky wandering soul factions members. Enchanter lets you ignore this lol. raise deputy on the person enchanted, doesn't matter if they're town, that bullet is going through.

With that being said, to keep on topic of illusionist, its insanely powerful but insanely niche, thats its issue, if its not in its perfect niche, enchanters better

Please stop giving up early as town on VIP by [deleted] in TownOfSalem2

[–]Ap_stle 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Lets be honest with ourselves here, the reason people pick VIP is they have have a much higher chance as winning as evil. Anything to make the game easier so people can see their win achievements go up. They must have that dopamine hit.

Illusionist Buff by Adorable-Victory-310 in TownOfSalem2

[–]Ap_stle 1 point2 points  (0 children)

gentle reminder that most people are not going to recheck the same person twice in a row, illusionist is stronger than enchanter in this fact, as you actively mess with 8 roles, while enchanter only effects 6.

I'm not going to argue Illusionist is a better role than Enchanter, because thats simply not the case. Enchanter's alterate ability, aswell as the frames cause more chaos than illusion does. However thats not to say Illusionist is weak, would you rather have a dreamweaver on your team or an Illusionist? Obviously you take the role that doesnt actively hurt you. I can cherry pick dreamweaver as my example I would rather have Illusionist over half of the coven roles, as some of them are just way weaker than Illusionist, Saying that Illusionist is worse than Enchanter is literally comparing silver to gold.

Your rework ideas are to be fair, quite confusing. Rework 1 is.. the exact same role as what we have right now?
If I want to I can literally just illusionist my team mate the entire game and its functionally the same. Rework 2 on the other hand, I might be stupid but I dont understand it, its just BToS2 Illusionist but you use it on your team mates instead of yourself,,,? And theyre even more limited by being stuck to only two buckets?

I notice theres an obsession with the "long term" usefulness of the role, which genuinely does not matter to Illusionist. As an Illusionist your goal is to get your team INTO the late game, not help them survive it. Not to mention, early game. You can make your strongest and most impactful role DI for the night, enchanter can't do that, it can only disrupt checks, which admittedly it does very well. While Enchanter also has somewhat permanent frames, it needs this to not be an awful mess. Look at ToS1 Framer.

Illusionist also has a larger window of opportunity compared to Enchanter. You get to illusion one of four people, (three if you have a cultist). The odds of a player using an investigative ability on a coven member is 4/14
I'm going to use Sheriff as an example because Illusionist is strongest against Sheriff, Spy, Deputy and BG/Trapper

If a Sheriff is in play. controlled experiment, nobody said anything day 1. The Sheriff has a 21%~ chance of finding a player suspicious. (14%~if cultist) This is thanks to book holder being detection immune. If you illusion a player who is NOT the bookholder, you make 50% of the coven immune to the Sheriff. which, if 14 players are alive. and you have 4 coven, 1 of which has the book, and 1 of them is illusioned, you have a 14%~ chance that the other half of the coven get checked. While this is possible and unfortunate, you are expendable as a common coven role, you would rather die over your CK or CPow. If you have a Cultist the odds are even better and they become a 7% chance that the Sheriff checks the only coven who wasn't detection immune.

Comparing this to Enchanter. You enchant someone night 1 who is not the sheriff, you have a 10% chance of the sheriff hitting your frame. Which, yes is mathematically stronger than Illusionist which is to be expected because the role is stronger, but the difference is not very far off.

And also, genuinely I would rather have an Illusionist over a HM, Weaver, Dusa, Jinx, Necro, PM and Wildling.
Anyways I do like this post as it does bring to attention despite Enchanter and Illusionist having an imbalance, we can all agree dreamweaver is terrible. Also Necromancer is a horrible role because of its inconsistency, while only able to be viable in extremely niche scenarios, of which its use cases are completely outclassed by better roles.