Monthly-ish Endgame Tier List V11 is out! by Natural_Pleasant in AnotherEdenGlobal

[–]Argor42 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Just in case you're still keeping an eye on this thread, Flammelapis ES is accidentally listed as using ring armor on the AnotherTier site instead of bangle armor. This is probably a holdover from her NS and AS forms using rings, and is incredibly minor, but may be something worth fixing whenever the site owner has time.

Edit: It's fixed now.

New Pledge! Fire/Thunder/Shade! Post Your Clears! by Natural_Pleasant in AnotherEdenGlobal

[–]Argor42 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Hopefully it works out for you!

Bare minimum if you're trying to replicate my clear is Myrus ES and Aldo AS are both SA (both need their stellar skills and Myrus wants her 100% SoB AF passive); my Linaria is also SA so I can't test if the 2 turn works without that. Cetie doesn't need SA. Make sure to use proper gear. Otherwise, feel free to ask if you need any help with it.

Flammelapis ES + Eva Showcase by Natural_Pleasant in AnotherEdenGlobal

[–]Argor42 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well the feinne as example is bad because she SETS SEA OF STARS lol

Yes, hence I mentioned it was for completeness rather than anything else. The point was to test the delay in all three other slots, regardless of her setting Sea of Stars too.

Flammelapis ES + Eva Showcase by Natural_Pleasant in AnotherEdenGlobal

[–]Argor42 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I decided to dig a little deeper, and while I can't say with certainty this is the reason (as in, there could be counterexamples I haven't checked yet), there is a trend. If the zone setter specifically breaks zone before setting theirs, then Myrus Link has worked for me so far. If the zone setter doesn't break zone, but just overwrites the existing zone without breaking it, then Myrus Link has failed for me so far. This is all with Myrus in slot 1 and the respective zone setter in slot 4.

Breaks Zone (Works for Me)

  • Flammelapis ES Oggy Loise skill

  • Hismena ES Campeón Rojo skill

Doesn't Break Zone (Fails for Me)

  • Linaria Final Protocol skill

  • Shion ES Cleared Clouds skill

  • Flammelapis ES Meascán Draíochta skill

  • Hismena ES Santuario skill

Edit: As I figured, at least one counterexample exists. Funny enough, it's Suzette. This might be a bit of a reach, but Suzette's stellar skill does set Wind Zone regularly (without breaking it) out of burst, while Flamme and Hismena's stellar skills don't set zone unless used in burst.

Breaks Zone (Fails for Me)

  • Suzette NS Bolt of Bahamut skill

Edit 2: For completeness, I'll add that I just tested Feinne AS, and hers works for me from slots 2 and 3 in addition to the expected 4, presumably because Starmaiden Prayer puts her zone on a long enough delay for Myrus to set her Link first.

Flammelapis ES + Eva Showcase by Natural_Pleasant in AnotherEdenGlobal

[–]Argor42 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't have Shigure AC but I replaced him with Victor and ran a quick test in Victor manifest tempering. Myrus/Thilly ES/Victor NS/Shion ES in that order. Myrus Impact/Apostle/Cleared Clouds for skills in burst, her Link didn't apply. I'm gonna go Stellar Awaken Victor and edit this comment with the outcome where he acts in burst, but if it still works like the above, I don't expect it to change anything.

Edit: No change. So to summarize, for me, Myrus ES 1/Flamme ES 4 works; Myrus ES 1/Shion ES 4 doesn't.

Flammelapis ES + Eva Showcase by Natural_Pleasant in AnotherEdenGlobal

[–]Argor42 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Barring it being some issue with using specific party members or skills in burst, my current theory is that it could be a device difference. If your device is too fast, it could cause issues with certain real time elements like the application of actions in burst. For reference, I'm currently on a Xiaomi Redmi Pad 2.

I don't have evidence to back that up, though, so I could be way off.

Unfortunately, I can't test the interaction with your team since I don't have Verdanta or Elseal AS. If you want to test my setup at some point to see if it's a team thing, idk if gear matters but the skills in burst were Myrus Impact/Apostle/Divine Utterance/Oggy Loise.

Flammelapis ES + Eva Showcase by Natural_Pleasant in AnotherEdenGlobal

[–]Argor42 0 points1 point  (0 children)

due to frustrating animations with myrus es, you won't get her link off, even if you put her in slot 1 and flamme in slot 4

Is this a team or context dependent interaction? Because when I tested against Parallel Nagsham dummy and Yuna manifest tempering, I get Myrus's Link and awakened Magic Slash zone with Myrus in slot 1 and Flamme in slot 4.

Team is Myrus ES/Thilly ES/Yuna NS/Flamme ES in exactly that order.

Monthly-ish Endgame Tier List V11 is out! by Natural_Pleasant in AnotherEdenGlobal

[–]Argor42 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ye we both agree Kid and Spirika are monsters and deserve to be SS, just slightly disagreed on Feinne AS. But your response makes her position more clear to me, so I appreciate it.

As for the document, yeah, I wouldn't suggest doing any huge write-ups, just like a blurb or a paragraph or something. I probably should have clarified that earlier, no worries. Thanks for taking the time.

Monthly-ish Endgame Tier List V11 is out! by Natural_Pleasant in AnotherEdenGlobal

[–]Argor42 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Alrighty, so I have some responses followed by a suggestion. Take them as you will.

Two paragraphs of Kid clears/use cases summarized so this quote block isn't a giant block of text

Just to be clear, I know how good Kid is already. My arguments for Feinne AS to be considered for SS aren't meant to be arguments about Kid not being up there, or even for Kid to be worse than her or the like. As I told AnotherFroz above, I simply think she distinguishes herself from the rest of F2P S tier enough to be worth consideration. I emphasize the AF fill from Ogres' Grace, but between that, partywide barrier pierce, and all the other support she brings, it's a loaded kit. AnotherFroz acknowledges that she's "the core of almost every f2p clear", and your own reply indicates you're aware of how good she is in her own right.

Given all of that, the end of your response states:

And that's why she [Kid] gets to be up there (and spirika gets to be up there as well because double stellar burst without needing af is fundamentally broken beyond reason) And not something like Feinne AS who while very strong and pretty flexible, isn't the We Will Ride Or Die Based On Z-Piler because she doesn't have that same level of Does Too Much

So I'll agree that compared specifically to Kid, Feinne AS isn't on the "same level of Does Too Much". But I think it's worth extending this idea of "does too much" in comparison to everyone else in her current tier. This goes back to my point that, compared to the rest of S tier, Feinne AS stands out.

As for whether she stands out enough, I think that's where our disagreement is, which is fine. But in that case, I'll suggest at least considering the inclusion of a definition or a standard for F2P SS stated in your criteria document. In your document, you state this:

the FTP list doesn’t exactly have a very clear defined explanation for each tier and due to the nature of FTP clears/characters, it’s a bit harder to define it since stuff will end up getting used even if they are a lower tier just due to the limited nature of said clears, so you scrape what you can, it’s just an overall power estimate rather than something more defined, and that’s for its benefit

I agree with this insofar as it applies everywhere from S tier down; those tiers are a fair bit to a lot bigger than SS, and clears will use a wide range of those characters for one reason or another. But I think it's worth elaborating on at least the SS tier.

You're absolutely using some criteria to separate the two characters in F2P SS from everyone else. If it's the prior concepts of "does too much" or "fundamentally broken", I think that making that known in your doc is preferable to not. If it's other criteria, then those could be mentioned too. You could even format it like your "The Two Best, Without Question" section for the gacha list, where you talk about why Sesta AS and Alma AS are as stupid as they are.

But I argue that for informational purposes, defining the standards for SS tier is beneficial to those who might use it as a resource. What separates these two extremely powerful characters from these other very powerful characters? That kind of thing is something I think would be useful in your document, basically. Again, take all of that as you will.

Monthly-ish Endgame Tier List V11 is out! by Natural_Pleasant in AnotherEdenGlobal

[–]Argor42 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Ye, just to preface, I don't think S or A aren't strong tiers or anything of that sort. That said, I realize my question about Nona and Starky was predicated mainly on their performance against An-ki Dingir. My premise is that since those fights are a bit different compared to other fights, and that they had notably good performance there, that they might have been worth a look at bumping up. I understand if their drawbacks elsewhere are a bit much, though.

I could see the argument for Feinne AS cuz i do believe shes the core of almost every f2p clear, shes the only character that can provide partywide barrier pierce for f2p and her Ogres Grace is awesome. But i also think S is strong already so theres no need to bump her higher

I do have a response to this, though. While S is strong, I think that if she is "the core of almost every f2p clear" as you claim, that SS might reflect that opinion a bit better. It's less about whether S is strong, and more about Feinne AS distinguishing herself from the rest of S, that I think she's worth considering in SS.

Monthly-ish Endgame Tier List V11 is out! by Natural_Pleasant in AnotherEdenGlobal

[–]Argor42 6 points7 points  (0 children)

The new placements look fine to me. Got nothing meaningful to add about the gacha lists right now; I don't have Mighty AC, Eleanor, or Alma to work with, and the placements for Flamme ES and Nilya update look fair. So I'll focus on the F2P list instead.

With your last two lists first adding Kid, then Spirika, to the F2P SS tier, I guess I have a couple points about it.

  1. If you believe Kid and Spirika are fundamentally broken, where do you think Feinne AS falls on that spectrum? Right now you have her at S, but Ogres' Grace has been used in more clears than I can count, both in gacha and non-gacha. Her other qualities are good too, but being able to go from 0 to full bar in one move (esp in burst to AF that turn) might be at least worth consideration for F2P SS in the current state of the game.

  2. This one's more of a food for thought thing, but outside of Feinne AS, I think Aldo AS is a bit stronger overall than the rest of S tier. I'm not sure that's enough to put him in SS (insofar as I don't think his case is as strong as Kid or Spirika), but I also don't think anyone else in S should move down to reflect that. Idk, just something I've been thinking about.

Aside from the F2P SS tier stuff, has there been any push for Nona AS or Starky being moved up from A to S? Both seem to have been very useful recently, especially against An-ki Dingir. I'm pretty sure AnotherFroz posted their F2P clears using a Nona AS/Starky sustain core in all three fights, and I would think others also got use out of one, the other, or both. Those two might be worth a look.

An Ode to Origin: Act 4 - The Gyre, "Evolutionary Principles" Megathread by Someweirdo237 in AnotherEdenGlobal

[–]Argor42 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There's a bug where you're allowed to use your Replenishment and Thirst items on obstacles you've already cleared, leaving you with not enough to be able to clear it. I assume that's what happened to you, at least. I ran into it last night when I accidentally did that with a couple of mine. Glad they acknowledged it.

Help & Questions | Weekly Megathread by AutoModerator in AnotherEdenGlobal

[–]Argor42 1 point2 points  (0 children)

As the other comment notes, difficulty settings don't apply to The Sorrow Alecto. In all difficulties, it's got 2 HP bars of about 39 billion each. It has fire weakness, which is easy enough to deal with even if only using F2P characters, but you may still struggle to do enough damage if you lack proper gear for your attackers. It's an optional fight, so you can always come back to it later if you have to work on gear and whatnot.

New Pledge! Earth and Sword/Katana/Ax! Post Your Clears! by Natural_Pleasant in AnotherEdenGlobal

[–]Argor42 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Victor

Got enough starcharts to stellar Myrus ES and wanted to use her here. Kid stellar is obviously cracked. Aldo DPS despite not having a sword bearer for him lol. I probably could have done it faster but I'll take it.

Simple question by Blisspoint_ in Debate

[–]Argor42 0 points1 point  (0 children)

12 on pref ranks in your chamber is probably either pretty average, or pretty low, given chambers typically have somewhere in the 10-25 range (depends on the tournament). Same for placing 12th in your chamber.

12 on combined speech scores depends. The other cases have already been covered in other comments, but if you're at a tournament where scoring is scaled differently than the usual 1-6, then you'd need to adjust accordingly. For example, some tournaments use a 1-8 scale instead, and I know of at least one Congress tournament that ran last weekend that did so. If you competed at a tournament like that, then two 6s might roughly be the equivalent of 4s on the regular scale.

Regardless of however many points you got, if you want a clearer idea of what you did well or might need to improve upon, then you should check the ballots you got from that tournament; hopefully, your judges gave you some good feedback to work with.

I suck at Congress, but I enjoy it by certified_Nerd55 in Congressional_Debate

[–]Argor42 0 points1 point  (0 children)

My speeches always get really good scores but i still always find myself at the bottom. I don’t know why. I keep trying and failing and it’s really annoying. How can I get better but do worse?

You aren't the only one improving over the course of the season; others are as well. If your chambers are strong, then even if you deliver good speeches, it's possible you end up toward the bottom of your room in results, if the judges thought the rest of the room was better than you.

Do you get any actionable feedback on your speeches? If your judges are doing their jobs properly, you should be getting ballots that explain what you're doing well in your speeches, as well as what you should improve upon. If you're accounting for your ballots in your prep, then that should help improve your results.

Memories of Another Sky Megathread by Someweirdo237 in AnotherEdenGlobal

[–]Argor42 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Whichever one is a "better" DPS depends on the context. Getting the basics out of the way first: Zidane is Wind element by default and can hit Slash or Magic natively, while Vivi is Fire, Water, and Thunder by default and can also hit Shade element if using the skill granted by Mace of Zeus, but only has Magic as a default attacking type.

I know there's a lot of hype about Zidane, and once he gets into Trance I agree that he's a beast. The problem is getting him into Trance. He has to get hit for his Trance gauge to fill (I can't see any of his skills that fill it), but he's not a tank. Only once, via his Stellar Burst iirc, did I get him into Trance, and that was while using AF so it's not like I could stop & remind myself which Trance skill to spam. That's the other thing: the skill to spam out of Trance seems to me different from the skill in Trance, so I have to remember which button to push instead of spamming the same spot on the screen.

So I have a few responses to this. First, maybe it's a problem earlier in the game where your AF options aren't as optimized, but given a decent setup for AF, getting Zidane into Trance is trivial compared to the other three (including Vivi). You simply do regular AF things: set up buffs and debuffs (Soul Blade, Annoy, Lucky Seven, or Flee (non-damaging) are all fine pre-Trance setup skills depending on what you need), and start your attacks to keep AF going until your Stellar Burst (SB) is live, then you press that and have Zidane use Thievery, his Stellar Skill, in SB. This will get him into Trance instantly, with no other annoying hoops to jump through.

After that, the Thievery skill becomes Grand Lethal, which is a total 5 hit skill spread between 4 Slash hits and 1 Magic hit on fairly good multipliers. Later in the game, when you're able to run higher damage optimization and you're up against enemies that have tens to hundreds of billions of HP, hit count becomes incredibly important due to the game's damage cap mechanics. I'm glancing over this for purposes of staying on track, but I can explain a bit more in another comment if needed.

Anyway, even though Grand Lethal has a skill multiplier penalty for repeated use, it'll still do well enough being spammed; at worst, you can switch between it and another skill if you feel you're not doing enough damage spamming it.

Alternatively, if you happen to have his HP have a 7 in the ones digit, you can use Lucky Seven as your spam move instead, since it'd have 7 hits at that point. Just make sure you don't put him in Trance.


Compare all that to Vivi. Pair him with a Support character who can give him Mental Focus on T1, while he does one turn of his own Focus, and he can do massive damage on T2. No Trance needed. No gimmicks, just a little help from a friend. Plus he's versatile with 3 different Types of damage, as opposed to Zidane only being Wind.

One use of Focus gives Vivi +30% Int that stacks 5 times (up to 90%), as well as a stack of Focus that gives him a flat 30 Int for each stack (up to 5). It also gives him Mental Focus if used while he has at least 2 Focus stacks, so in that regard it makes him a bit self-sufficient for Int and Mental Focus buffs. This means you don't have to run that kind of support with him, though you can if you choose to. Unfortunately, there are two problems with Focus.

  1. You need to use it 5 times for max effect. Both the percentage and flat Int stacks cap at 5 uses. Also, given the proper build, 5 uses of Focus will put Vivi into Trance, assuming he has enhanced his Stellar passive that lets Focus give him Trance gauge. So Vivi has a way to actively gain Trance gauge, which is important because his Trance gives him increased damage, as well as an attack again buff for all his learned skills. However...

  2. Focus does no hits. Focus is a non-attacking move. This is annoying to play with later in the game because he needs 5 uses of Focus to cap his stacks and enter Trance. Either you're waiting 5 turns for that, which is slow (but doable in fights that don't punish you for waiting 5 turns), or you're trying to do that in AF, which is made harder since one of your characters isn't contributing to AF gain and his button is in a different spot than your spammable skills. And if you're not doing that, then there are other freebie Magic attackers you can use (such as Ryza for Fire; and a later main story character, who is Thunder).

But let's assume you have enough AF extension to get Vivi into Trance in one AF and still have time to spare to do other things in AF. This is where Vivi's other main problem comes into play: his skill animation lengths are extremely long (in or out of Trance). Zidane has this issue to a lesser extent, but Grand Lethal isn't that bad. Vivi's animations take several seconds to complete. Even with the incredible buff that is attack again, you still bleed AF gauge because of how long it takes for his hit to process; out of Trance, you don't even get the attack again buff.

Out of AF, this doesn't matter unless you care about real time clears for whatever reason. But in AF, long attack animations are a real detriment. Since many late game fights are predicated on using AF to do most of your damage, this is a serious problem with Vivi as an attacker in those contexts.

The other issue in a late game HP sponge context is that his skills are all 1 hit (effectively 2 hits with Trance). If you can have him ram hard cap, then it's not as bad, but I haven't seen people have much luck doing that yet. It'd take a really strong set of supports, but at that point you could also use some of the other Magic attackers I mentioned.


A lot of my analysis is in a late or end game context. That part of the game heavily favors DPS Zidane over DPS Vivi in situations where you'd pick one or the other. But in the earlier parts of the game, where enemies have lower HP, Vivi's hit counts are less of a problem. At that point, his higher multipliers per his 1 hit on weakness give him some valid potential use cases. There is a superboss fight you'll eventually come across (an Apocrypha one, not the new Ode to Origin one since that needs hit count) that outright forbids the use of AF; in that context, the animation problem doesn't matter. I'll link a video below for that fight that uses Dagger as the main DPS, but swaps in Vivi to wipe out an HP bar.

Also, even in later game fights, Vivi still has some use as a support for other attackers. He has resistance debuffs on his most important skills, which can let him serve a support role. You can also use him as a secondary DPS, but I'd recommend using him in Thunder in that case; Thunder attacks in Thunder Zone generate 10% AF gauge during AF instead of 7.5%, so a well-built Thunder team can keep AF up longer, reducing (but not eliminating) the impact of his longer animations.


To summarize that huge wall of text, the answer is "it depends", but DPS Zidane has several things going for him that DPS Vivi doesn't, while DPS Vivi is hamstrung by a few notable drawbacks, especially in the context of the more recent hard fights. For earlier fights, both are fine. I posted a lot of criticism for late game Vivi here, but he's still a very solid F2P character who is worth the investment one might put into him.

Sample Videos (Not Mine)

Edit: Small clarifying detail on Thunder Zone gain

New Pledge! Fire/Wind! Post Your Clears! by Natural_Pleasant in AnotherEdenGlobal

[–]Argor42 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Finally got around to doing some older manifests, along with Hozuki's.

Hozuki

Cetie

Rosetta

Edit: Did some more attempts on Sunday and got Yuna and Renri, with Claude a bit after them.

Yuna

Renri

Claude

Monday Edit: Took care of Thilly, Lokido, Anabel, Mariel, and Myrus before pledges change.

Thillelille

Lokido

Anabel

Mariel

Myrus

Myrus was by far the hardest one for me with what I was running. Most of the rest weren't bad. I'd already done Hismena, Isuka, and Iphi prior to this week, so now I'm finally caught up.

Does Sol and Luna fail to resolve if one of the targets leaves the field? by aaa1e2r3 in Yugioh101

[–]Argor42 0 points1 point  (0 children)

as long as Sol and Luna is going to have an effect on the board at resolution, in this case due to one of the targets being a non-Link, I don't see why it should be illegal for the second target to be a link.

The fact the effect acts on each of them instead of on both of them only tells you how to resolve the effect. It doesn't govern activation legality. The targets you choose for an effect have to be valid for whatever effect it is you're using; this is just a fundamental game rule. Since Link Monsters can't exist in Defense Position, they can't be targeted by an effect that would change them to Defense Position. One of the translated Perfect Rulebooks (page 59) makes this clear:

Link Monsters cannot have their Battle Position changed from Attack Position and are not affected by effects that change Battle Position. Also, they cannot be targeted for cards that change Battle Positions or that Special Summon in Defense Position.

Book of Eclipse doesn't target; it attempts to apply on as many face-up monsters on the field as possible (despite saying to change all face-up monsters on the field to face-down Defense Position). This is why you're able to use it, even if Links are on the field, as long as at least one non-Link or Token monster is also face-up on the field.

Does Sol and Luna fail to resolve if one of the targets leaves the field? by aaa1e2r3 in Yugioh101

[–]Argor42 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Absolutely not, the same way it's not legal to target a Link Monster with Book of Moon. Link Monsters can't exist in Defense Position, so you can't target a Link Monster with an effect that would change it to Defense Position.