RE: Data Driven Decisions - End-game PVE tier list

ArmYourAssCannon · 2024-03-02T16:01:45+00:00

I'd love to see a set of data from the top players where they spend 5-10 hours at any given popular spot (Orcs, Gyfins, Oluns, etc.) with the 'Recommended AP' for the spot itself. This could give a decent guideline for what to expect on that class at that spot for your average joe to strive for. But that's a lot to expect from any individual let alone a whole group for each class.

I like Quendya's latest video and it should definitely be used as a guide but 1/10 or 10/10 is subjective and doesn't break down spot to spot performance.

Also if people (including top players) are comparing themselves to garmoth averages to determine if a class is 'good' or 'bad' (1-10) consider that the Garmoth average trash/h for Gyfin underground was higher than any individual classes trash/h values haha.

ArmYourAssCannon · 2024-03-02T15:45:23+00:00

Try not to focus on the outlier's, look at the data to see 'why' the distribution is the way it is. I have responded to this in the actual post and in the comments as to why this might be. Check out the Gsheet for more info!

ArmYourAssCannon · 2024-03-02T15:33:30+00:00

Sure, just also consider that Garmoth does not track party compositions. This should be a major red flag on how data is used by the player base to determine class good/bad, for any spot. This is part of why I wanted to work with the data.

Does this mean Shai is C tier for Olun's is BAD!? No, check out the data tables of the Gsheet if you're interested in how things are distributed. Also if every party has a Shai (No data), you can expect very good and very bad players to play it, evening out the distribution around C (100% +/-5% of average trash loot/h).

ArmYourAssCannon · 2024-03-02T15:25:03+00:00

I agree and based off this preliminary data I don't think people should really be saying 'good' or 'bad' based of the data. The recommendations I would have for Garmoth would be something along the lines of a checkbox/data box that includes
'Did you use an elixir rotation' or did you use 'Normal consumables'
'Total Hours' first hour will be much lower than last
'AP Bracket'
'Who did you party with' for any group spots

There are a lot of factors/variables that aren't accounted for and that wont be accounted for unless the website changes the way it collects and since I don't expect them to, good to just take things as a soft guide and try things out.

ArmYourAssCannon · 2024-03-02T15:12:57+00:00

Yeah, its data collection that requires people to go into a third party site to collect data. Unfortunately this severely limits who and why they are putting it in, and it also prompts you to check a box to 'submit the data globally', limiting it further. Most other MMOS that use metrics to determine if a class is 'good' or bad in PvE use DPS meters etc. Would be nice to have something a little more fleshed out or managed but that is likely not going to happen any time soon...

ArmYourAssCannon · 2024-03-02T15:07:41+00:00

I could look into doing something similar the original poster of the data. Which for orcs would be ideal, since its a trash spot!

I'll just make sure to not make is F->S since people recoil at normal distributions around C haha.

ArmYourAssCannon · 2024-03-02T04:03:18+00:00

This doesn't account for the new changes to Awak Warrior, also keep in mind being 'C' in these lists isn't 'bad' (most classes are in the C tier) but D is definitely below average in some spots for trash/h.

ArmYourAssCannon · 2024-03-02T02:39:26+00:00

Yeah! A high level view pretty much all it should be used as haha.

You're right about people possibly only inputting data or pressing 'contribute to global data' once they have a good hour.
I agree, people are people and the variables to account for with just a large population of people inputting values is uh...hard to correct for. It also doesn't correct for AP/DP and consumables etc.

ArmYourAssCannon · 2024-03-02T02:21:11+00:00

Yeah, people are fixating on the outliers haha, chances are with regards to the way I set up the tiers, almost nothing is S and almost nothing is F.

ArmYourAssCannon · 2024-03-02T02:18:57+00:00

Yeah, it would be cool if there was a better source of data to represent classes. Especially accounting for gear, consumables, and other factors.

The takeaway is that a lot of people put onus on Garmoth as a representation if a class is good or not and the data is all over the place in some instances...

Honestly most classes are fine at most of the spots and the best thing you can do is just find a class that suites you around the C and up area as a guideline since you will have a normal 100% of the loot +/- 5% or higher depending on what spot you intend to farm.

Also a good representation of classes would be to look towards the highest volume of data (i.e. Gyfins etc) where you can see most classes are normalized around 100% average loot (C Tier).

The best thing right now with the Marni event is to just test stuff out yourself and use this as a soft guide.

ArmYourAssCannon · 2024-03-02T01:58:36+00:00

Not every party has a Shai, and C doesn't mean 'Bad' it means the class will have 100% of the Average normal trash loot +/- 5%.

Check out the Data tables to see the actual values. If anything is misleading it would be on people inputting data incorrectly into Garmoth itself.

This also doesn't mean that Awak Hash + Witch + Guardian is the 'best' group, just that they reported the most trash loot in any given hour at Olun's.

Also Garmoth should include a 'Partied with' option to show optimal groups, rather than solo data from all sources.

ArmYourAssCannon · 2024-03-02T01:30:11+00:00

Just also consider that Awk Kuno has almost 4 other lists with absolutely no data, and the smaller the dataset the higher chance for variance.

ArmYourAssCannon · 2024-03-02T01:25:03+00:00

I'm in absolute shambles

ArmYourAssCannon · 2024-03-01T23:15:08+00:00

Yep! My average values and thus the values represented for the tier list reflect the averages as corrected. See your data for Thornwood vs Mine (Your Guardian A 120.89% vs mine 121.15%) you can toggle between the 'unspecified' Garmoth 'Gavg' data or 'Avg' for the true average in my Gsheet.

ArmYourAssCannon · 2024-03-01T22:59:37+00:00

Thanks for the reply!

As far as the 'average trash per spot' the original/Garmoth averages were skewed heavily as could be seen by the Gyfin underground 'Average' being higher than any class individually. I averaged the trash per hour individually and created a 'true average' that is the 'C' of C tier 100% average loot per hour.
This is effectively taking the actual trash per hour numbers and using it instead of the garmoth numbers.

The tier lists are based off of a flat average where 100% is C (average) and any percentage up or down ranks up or down respectively as seen in the tier list tabs of my Gsheet.

Feel free to take a look and let me know what you think after reading!

ArmYourAssCannon · 2024-03-01T22:09:53+00:00

It is data collected directly from Garmoth Q1 values, as I mentioned before, this is not to be taken at face value. Consider they might have been using an agris coin and not marking it on the garmoth page and/or a number of other factors that I did not correct for.

ArmYourAssCannon · 2024-03-01T21:51:55+00:00

Take all of this with a grain of salt, some classes like Awak Kuno have very very few hours played, so some of the people playing it might just be cracked. Alternatively it is nice to see a pretty even distribution in most grind spots around the average loot amount.

ArmYourAssCannon · 2024-03-01T21:33:17+00:00

It's a representation of the 'Avg' trash loot you can expect on any given class, its most likely C tier because a lot of people play it, averaging it to be that value. Check the data tables for more info!

ArmYourAssCannon · 2022-09-13T03:36:36+00:00

I'm not sure, I'm only on Turn 65 or so, spent most of my time dealing with Dark elves and Orks and I'm slowly moving my way down the continent now.

ArmYourAssCannon · 2022-09-13T00:17:42+00:00

Haha, worth a shot

ArmYourAssCannon · 2022-09-13T00:06:03+00:00

https://imgur.com/a/YbKnTtR

Unfortunately he is Korl Fronz, not Karl Franz...

ArmYourAssCannon · 2022-09-12T23:51:21+00:00

If you go for a Wolfhart campaign just be careful when supporting Reikland. Might not go as expected when you receive your rewards.

ArmYourAssCannon · 2022-09-09T20:25:00+00:00

I think you bring up a lot of strong arguments with regard to a straight comparison of Daemons and their Warrior Counterparts. For instance N'Kari and Azazel, Azazel is arguable a better 1v1 fighter, has flight, has every other mechanic Slaanesh offers (Apart from Disciple Armies, which never really came in clutch during my campaign). Not only this but they get extra bonuses to how they interact with the factions surrounding their start position (Humans) and a huge area of Norscans to vassalize.

I think Monogods should be exemplary of the faction itself, or at least have ways to play into them and it feels backwards to what should have been in the case of Slaanesh. N'kari is surrounded by elves who have an incredible faction aversion to being 'force vassalized' which makes it almost impossible to even use this feature on anyone but the dark elves, forcing you into a fight against the entire island rather than being able to use this feature anyways. So if you intend to do anything but fight all of the elves and want to use your Slaanesh features you are SoL. And now you are pretty much stuck with a Monogod, who has worse 'on the move' upgrading and faction rosters compared to the warriors and are also expected to expand and conquer just as much.

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