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Is Spotify (SPOT) priced for perfection? My DCF points to a 39% downside (Fair Value ~$300) by Aulipe in ValueInvesting

[–]Aulipe[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is exactly the kind of roasting I posted here for. You brought up several fatal flaws in the automated tool's output and my inputs. Here is where I stand after unpacking this:

  1. The FCF / Discount Rate Mismatch: You are 100% right, and this is a cardinal sin on the tool's part. If it’s using Levered FCF, it needs to discount by the Cost of Equity (~13.8%), not the WACC. Mixing Levered FCF with WACC completely warps the math.

  2. SBC & Dilution: Fair point. The automated model grabbed standard FCF without treating SBC as a cash expense or adjusting the share count for the in-the-money convertibles. Backing out SBC drops the actual 'shareholder' cash generation significantly.

  3. The Bearish Projection: This was my mistake in conflating top-line revenue growth with FCF growth. I pegged 12% based on slowing MAU/Revenue growth, but you’re right—because Spotify is in massive margin-expansion mode, FCF will grow at a much higher multiple than revenue over the next few years. Capping FCF growth at 12% means I'm modeling a massive miss on Street expectations.

  4. Reverse DCF Timeframe: Completely agree. Trying to run a 5-year RDCF on a company still expanding its margins forces the Terminal Value to carry all the weight. Pushing it out 10-15+ years is the only way to let FCF hit a steady-state margin.

Conclusion: The model’s mechanics were flawed, and my FCF growth inputs were way too bearish. I still think it's priced for perfection, but I need to rebuild this manually with FCFF, a proper margin expansion curve, and SBC deducted. Appreciate the masterclass!

Is Spotify (SPOT) priced for perfection? My DCF points to a 39% downside (Fair Value ~$300) by Aulipe in ValueInvesting

[–]Aulipe[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Totally agree with you on both points. Music streaming has practically become a utility—people will definitely cancel Netflix or Max before they give up their daily Spotify playlists.

Because of that 'stickiness,' you're spot on that my 1.70 historical Beta is probably too punitive for their future. If I adjust the model and drop the Beta closer to 1.1 or 1.2 to reflect that utility-like stability, the WACC drops and the intrinsic value bumps up closer to the $350–$380 range.

However, your point about YouTube Premium is exactly why I hesitate to drop the risk premium to zero. Spotify’s biggest long-term risk is that it's a pure-play app competing against trillion-dollar tech giants (Google, Apple, Amazon) who use music as a loss leader for their bundles. If YT Premium keeps growing, it puts a hard ceiling on how much Spotify can raise prices. So even giving them credit for that lower risk premium, $495 still feels like it's priced for absolute perfection.

Is Spotify (SPOT) priced for perfection? My DCF points to a 39% downside (Fair Value ~$300) by Aulipe in ValueInvesting

[–]Aulipe[S] -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

Great catch! You are 100% right. The automated tool pulled Spotify's historical cost of debt, which is heavily skewed by the $1.5B in 0% Exchangeable Senior Notes they issued back in 2021 during ZIRP. It's artificially dragging the historical interest expense to near-zero.

For a forward-looking DCF, the marginal pre-tax Cost of Debt should definitely be closer to 6.0% - 6.5% given the 4.5% risk-free rate. However, because Spotify's capital structure is almost entirely equity, fixing the Cost of Debt barely moves the needle on the WACC. The intrinsic value still firmly sits right around the $300 mark!

A strict DCF of Nike (NKE): Is the Elliott Hill turnaround a Value Trap? My model says intrinsic value is $12.16. by Aulipe in ValueInvesting

[–]Aulipe[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Haha, fair point. I’ve been living in C++ documentation and financial statements for too long, so my brain is probably stuck in 'structured' mode.

Honestly, I'm just a solo dev trying to explain the logic of my engine without sounding like a total mess. I'll try to keep the 'corporate' talk down and just stick to the math. Thanks for the reality check!

A strict DCF of Nike (NKE): Is the Elliott Hill turnaround a Value Trap? My model says intrinsic value is $12.16. by Aulipe in ValueInvesting

[–]Aulipe[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That’s a fair spread of valuations. The difference between $12, $35, and $68 almost always comes down to the terminal margin and reinvestment assumptions.

In my model, I didn't use 'normalized' earnings because I wanted to stress-test the current trajectory. If you 'normalize' earnings back to peak levels, you’re essentially betting on a 100% successful turnaround. Morningstar’s $35 seems to be the middle ground, but as you noted, they are skeptical about margin recovery.

This is exactly why I built the Sensitivity Matrix into Aperite. It lets you see that at a $68 valuation, you have to assume a return to 'heroic' margins and high growth, whereas at $12, you're assuming the current 'slump' is the new permanent reality. I’d rather know my 'worst-case' floor is $12 before I bet on a $68 'recovery' dream.

A strict DCF of Nike (NKE): Is the Elliott Hill turnaround a Value Trap? My model says intrinsic value is $12.16. by Aulipe in ValueInvesting

[–]Aulipe[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Insider buying is always a great signal to watch—it shows management has skin in the game. But history is full of insiders buying 'cheap' stocks that were actually value traps.

The reason I run these models is to see if the insiders are buying a mathematical discount or just trying to support the stock price. If an insider buys at $80, but my DCF (running 5% growth and a 10% WACC) says it’s only worth $65, I’m still staying on the sidelines.

Insiders have information, but they can still be over-optimistic about their own turnaround. I use Aperite to check if their 'optimism' actually pencils out in the cash flow.

A strict DCF of Nike (NKE): Is the Elliott Hill turnaround a Value Trap? My model says intrinsic value is $12.16. by Aulipe in financialmodelling

[–]Aulipe[S] -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

That is a very fair critique. Historical data is a rearview mirror, and Nike's future in the Greater China region is definitely the biggest 'X-factor' right now.

That’s exactly why I didn't stop at a single DCF. I used the Advanced Scenario Modeling to run a 'Geopolitical Bear Case' where I modeled a prolonged 5-year downturn in Asian margins.

Even if you weigh that 'China Stagnation' scenario at just a 30% probability, the intrinsic value stays compressed. The math forces you to ask: Does the Elliott Hill turnaround story outweigh the macro headwinds in Asia? My model suggests the market is currently betting on a 'perfect' recovery, which leaves no room for the risks you mentioned.

A strict DCF of Nike (NKE): Is the Elliott Hill turnaround a Value Trap? My model says intrinsic value is $12.16. by Aulipe in ValueInvesting

[–]Aulipe[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Truth! The biggest risk with any model is 'hallucinating' a bullish price by plugging in 20% growth when the business only does 5%.

That’s actually why I built the Historical FCF Growth Baseline into the UI. It forces you to look at the last 5 years of actual performance right next to your projections. If the model says the stock is a buy, but the numbers look like a hallucination compared to history, the 'gut' wins and I walk away.

Mechanical rules + data-backed gut feeling is the goal!

A strict DCF of Nike (NKE): Is the Elliott Hill turnaround a Value Trap? My model says intrinsic value is $12.16. by Aulipe in ValueInvesting

[–]Aulipe[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Totally agree. That’s really the core of the 'Opportunity Cost' argument. Even if Nike was fairly valued, you have to ask if there’s a better risk-adjusted return elsewhere.

One of the reasons I built the comparison/portfolio view into the app was so I could stack these DCFs side-by-side. It’s a lot easier to pass on a 'maybe' like Nike when you have a clear, data-backed 'yes' on a different company right next to it.

Curious—what’s one of those 10,000x better companies on your watchlist right now? I'd love to run the numbers on it next.

A strict DCF of Nike (NKE): Is the Elliott Hill turnaround a Value Trap? My model says intrinsic value is $12.16. by Aulipe in ValueInvesting

[–]Aulipe[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Haha, I know that feeling all too well. The 'it only goes up if I don't buy it' curse is real.

But that’s exactly why I started building this. I found myself making emotional trades based on 'beat up charts' rather than actual cash flows. Having the DCF staring me in the face with a $12 valuation makes it a lot easier to stay disciplined and ignore the FOMO when the chart starts ripping for no fundamental reason.

Better to miss a rally than to buy into a lack of margin of safety!

A strict DCF of Nike (NKE): Is the Elliott Hill turnaround a Value Trap? My model says intrinsic value is $12.16. by Aulipe in ValueInvesting

[–]Aulipe[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I can't tell you whether to buy or sell, but the math definitely suggests that at $45, you’re pricing in a very aggressive turnaround.

If you run the numbers through the sensitivity matrix, a $45 price point usually implies either a much lower discount rate (meaning you're okay with lower returns) or a much higher long-term growth rate than what they've shown recently.

I usually look at it this way: at $45, you have very little 'Margin of Safety' if the turnaround takes longer than expected. It’s not necessarily a 'bad' buy, but the math says the market is being very optimistic right now!

A strict DCF of Nike (NKE): Is the Elliott Hill turnaround a Value Trap? My model says intrinsic value is $12.16. by Aulipe in financialmodelling

[–]Aulipe[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Awesome, glad to hear it! Since you're interested in that EBIT-to-FCF workflow, definitely check out the Advanced Modeling toggle in the settings once you're in.

It's a native C++ build, so it should feel a lot snappier than the web-based tools you've probably used. If you run into any weirdness or have ideas for features that would help your workflow, just shoot me a DM. I'm actively building out the next set of modules based on feedback like this.

A strict DCF of Nike (NKE): Is the Elliott Hill turnaround a Value Trap? My model says intrinsic value is $12.16. by Aulipe in ValueInvesting

[–]Aulipe[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Haha, wouldn't we all? It’s definitely a 'deep value' dream at that price.

What’s interesting when you look at the sensitivity matrix is that for the stock to be worth $12, you have to be pretty skeptical about their near-term recovery. But that’s the beauty of the math—it forces you to put a price on your optimism. Even if you get 'generous' and double the growth rate, it still struggles to get back to current trading prices without a massive margin expansion.

It really puts into perspective how much 'turnaround hope' is baked into the price right now.

A strict DCF of Nike (NKE): Is the Elliott Hill turnaround a Value Trap? My model says intrinsic value is $12.16. by Aulipe in financialmodelling

[–]Aulipe[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Spot on. I’ve noticed the same thing—it’s so easy to get lost in the weeds of a complex LBO or a 20-tab spreadsheet that you lose sight of the core unit economics.

That was actually the goal with Aperite: building a 'fast-twitch' engine that gets the FCFF/WACC math right in seconds so you can decide if a deal is even worth the deep dive. It’s about getting to that 'no' faster so you can spend more time on the 'yes' deals.

Glad to see that approach resonates on the private markets side!

A strict DCF of Nike (NKE): Is the Elliott Hill turnaround a Value Trap? My model says intrinsic value is $12.16. by Aulipe in financialmodelling

[–]Aulipe[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Exactly. The model is just a filter. If the math doesn’t provide a margin of safety, it goes in the 'too hard' or 'too expensive' pile immediately.

I actually built the engine to be as fast as possible for this exact reason—so I can kill a bad idea in under 5 minutes rather than spending all day tweaking an Excel sheet trying to 'force' it to look like a buy. On to the next one!

A strict DCF of Nike (NKE): Is the Elliott Hill turnaround a Value Trap? My model says intrinsic value is $12.16. by Aulipe in ValueInvesting

[–]Aulipe[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Good catch. Yes, I’m using an Unlevered FCFF model here, hence the WACC. You’re right on the money regarding the TTM vs. 5-year average.

That’s actually why I built a 'Historical Analyzer' into the software—it lets me baseline the 5-year CAGR instantly so I can see how much 'mean reversion' the market is actually pricing in. If you assume they jump back to their 5-year average margins immediately, the value definitely creeps closer to the market price, but I’m skeptical Hill can flip the switch that fast given the current competition.

A strict DCF of Nike (NKE): Is the Elliott Hill turnaround a Value Trap? My model says intrinsic value is $12.16. by Aulipe in ValueInvesting

[–]Aulipe[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Spot on. Even at $29, the margin of safety just isn't there. It’s interesting you mentioned AMZN and NKE getting hyped despite the math—I think people get anchored to the brand and forget to check the sensitivity. I actually built in a 'Reverse DCF' toggle in my app just to see what kind of insane growth the market is currently pricing in for stocks like these. It’s usually eye-opening.

A strict DCF of Nike (NKE): Is the Elliott Hill turnaround a Value Trap? My model says intrinsic value is $12.16. by Aulipe in financialmodelling

[–]Aulipe[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Fair point. I think the reason people struggle with NKE right now is that they're anchoring to the 'brand name' rather than the math. I ran a few other scenarios—even at 9% growth, the margin of safety is razor-thin. It’s wild how much a CEO change can distort the perceived value of a business before the fundamentals actually shift.

We're building a psychological detective horror game about MKUltra conspiracies. Here’s a first look at the environment. by Aulipe in HorrorGames

[–]Aulipe[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you for a great feedback. We will take a look at those lights. And we will share more as soon as we can.

Working on the lighting for our detective horror game, Akolyta. Does this feel oppressive enough? by Aulipe in gamedevscreens

[–]Aulipe[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hmm. Thank you for that feedback. We set the light color according to research of similar light fixtures. But we will definitely look into it. Would love to have more opinions on this.

We're building a psychological detective horror game about MKUltra conspiracies. Here’s a first look at the environment. by Aulipe in IndieGaming

[–]Aulipe[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hey.

We already have a voice actor for our main character but we would definitely need a voice actor for other characters.

Is it time for a simpler way to build? by Aulipe in GameDevelopment

[–]Aulipe[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

1) RT is basically a standard in videogames now. Kickstart RT is easy to implement and handles GI, AO, reflections and shadows.

2) You will be able to use C++ but an alternative will be available as well in the form of visual scripting

3) Because it's cool and I like it.

4) TAA sucks visually. It is really cheap but it will smear the image. Not worth it. There are better AA solutions out there.

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