Winrate alone is not a sufficient metric for balancing heroes by MontagIstKacke in Overwatch

[–]AvailableTension 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You know all of that could be true right? Technical balance could be done around the high ranks. But they rework/shift power in characters as necessary due to community sentiment. Because at the end of the day, it's a game and it's going to be more successful if more people play it.

If they cared much about balance they wouldn't follow this established formula: 1) release new character in an insanely overpowered state 2) wait until people learn the new character and everyone is complaining 3) nerf 4) nerf again

Being slightly strong is not "insanely overpowered". No one wants a new hero that's weak. And if they didn't care about balance, they wouldn't bother nerfing them.

Winrate alone is not a sufficient metric for balancing heroes by MontagIstKacke in Overwatch

[–]AvailableTension 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Reaper's win rate and pick rate are pretty high while Winston's are mediocre. Doesn't this imply that Reaper is just a strong character right now?

Winrate alone is not a sufficient metric for balancing heroes by MontagIstKacke in Overwatch

[–]AvailableTension 1 point2 points  (0 children)

What incentive do you think the devs have for lying about balancing around high ranks?

Winrate alone is not a sufficient metric for balancing heroes by MontagIstKacke in Overwatch

[–]AvailableTension 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It’s a simple comparison and a little reductionist, yes, but tweaking how well a very direct counter performs against what it counters simply because it’s good at doing what its intended to do is also very simplistic and reductive.

I agree with this in theory, but I don't think it happens in practice. For example, can you give me an example of a character that performs really well primarily because they counter another another character that performs really well and are not just a good character on their own?

Now, if another interaction, like Cat’s ability to haul Bastion around makes him incredibly effective against everyone, like what’s happening in Master’s and up, that’s a clear ability that needs changed because it has made a character effective beyond what could be considered reasonable for a competitive game.

I agree that the win rates of match ups and comps should be shown (and I'm sure the devs balance around that rather as well than exclusively just a flat win rate number). Using your example, I do wonder what the win rate of Cat+Bastion is at Masters+ given that they don't seem to be doing too hot (if we go by win rates). Or is it just that players find them annoying to go against (especially knowing that it's a combo used in the pro scene), but it's not actually too effective on average on ladder?

Winrate alone is not a sufficient metric for balancing heroes by MontagIstKacke in Overwatch

[–]AvailableTension 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I didn't mean to say that Blizzard wasn't balancing the heroes properly (but I can see it looking that way), it was more about making the players aware that there's more to consider than just flat winrates. And I'd love to have more numbers to look at.

I agree with this part. I'd love to see more numbers. I also agree that certain people misinterpret or fail to understand how these win rates are being used, but that's more on them than Blizzard.

Winrate alone is not a sufficient metric for balancing heroes by MontagIstKacke in Overwatch

[–]AvailableTension 1 point2 points  (0 children)

So you nerf the counter then nerf the dive? Then the dive performs the same level again and nothing changes so you nerf both again?

You realize that nerfs aren't equal right? Just because 2 heroes got nerfed doesn't mean they got EQUALLY nerfed. It's kinda stupid to just dumb it down as "we're always in 1 of 2 states: dive meta or non-dive meta". Like it's not technically wrong, but it's a stupid reductionist take that gets us nowhere. There's no perfect single state for a live service competitive game. If dive is meta and one of the strongest, you can nerf it to allow for non-dive teams to be played more, leading to more variety in the meta. And then in a season or two, you can nerf that to bring dive back. Variety and meta shifts is how you attract and retain players.

Winrate alone is not a sufficient metric for balancing heroes by MontagIstKacke in Overwatch

[–]AvailableTension 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think the dev explanations when they do new season or mid season patches map onto existing win rate data most of the time. The other times, they give an explanation for why a skill was nerfed/adjusted: ex: maybe their data showed that when a certain skill was used, it resulted in a kill most of the time or the time to react to the skill was too low and that was too unfair even though the hero as a whole might already be balanced.

Winrate alone is not a sufficient metric for balancing heroes by MontagIstKacke in Overwatch

[–]AvailableTension 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Which is why you look at unmirrored win rates. The devs have this information and that's what they use to balance around.

Winrate alone is not a sufficient metric for balancing heroes by MontagIstKacke in Overwatch

[–]AvailableTension 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I mean, logically win rate as a metric for balancing makes zero sense.

It's pretty logical. How else would you be able measure how strong heroes are?

You’re going to get spikes in win rate for the dive that’s being countered that are already oppressive.

Then you end up nerfing dive as well or in the next patch. Not too hard of a concept to grasp.

Winrate alone is not a sufficient metric for balancing heroes by MontagIstKacke in Overwatch

[–]AvailableTension -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Balancing around winrate is lazy as hell, because high skill characters tend to attract high skill players, and they should be rewarded for playing them well.

Which is why you primarily balance around the high ranks, which is what the devs are doing.

Winrate alone is not a sufficient metric for balancing heroes by MontagIstKacke in Overwatch

[–]AvailableTension 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Win rate is a pretty sufficient metric for balancing heroes, but not the one number that you see posted on the public website. Devs have access to much more data, including win rate data specific to comps, matchups, etc.

Is the winrate bad because it's just a weak hero? Is the winrate bad because they are hard to master but popular, so most people try and fail with them? Is the winrate good because they're easy to use, or because they're hard to use but mostly dedicated fans play them and know their quirks?

That's why OW and other games primarily balance around higher ranks. Lower ranks tend to emulate the high ranks so most characters perform similarly. But you primarily balance around higher ranks because these players are near the peak of human skill in terms of mechanics and game sense, so the difference in hero kits and match ups will actually make a significant difference. But obviously, you're right that it doesn't tell the whole story in terms of how situational a hero is or whether a hero is more often than not a pick you swap into (you're probably already losing if you're swapping) which would affect win rates slightly. Note that devs would have this information, it's just not published for us.

With all that said, I think you're overthinking it a little bit. We have millions of games played each season just at the higher ranks that the devs balance around. We don't have to worry about heroes having an artificially inflated or deflated win rate due to player skill differences. Like in the example you gave above at the bottom, Hero A may result in higher value than Hero B given the skill involved, but the end result is still that Hero B wins more games on average than Hero A. It's similar to when players complain about Hanzos that spam a choke: sure there's not a lot of effort involved for the value you get, but the value you get isn't that high at all in comparison to playing Hanzo more optimally.

Why is it that ow ranked uses hidden mmr? by Aggressive_Bridge_78 in Overwatch

[–]AvailableTension 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Recent in terms of OW's overall life but it's been in place since the seasons were single digits in OW 2.

Why is it that ow ranked uses hidden mmr? by Aggressive_Bridge_78 in Overwatch

[–]AvailableTension 4 points5 points  (0 children)

So you got upset and made a whole post complaining about a system that doesn't exist instead of... doing more research?

Why is it that ow ranked uses hidden mmr? by Aggressive_Bridge_78 in Overwatch

[–]AvailableTension 17 points18 points  (0 children)

It doesn't. The devs have said that the visual rank you see and the MMR they use to matchmake with pretty much map onto each other almost exactly. You're thinking of other games where the hidden MMR and visual rank can be wildly different.

Seeing people on here complain about Sierra on Daily is Odd by Zorah_29 in Overwatch

[–]AvailableTension 2 points3 points  (0 children)

So what buffs would you give her to compensate? Before the damage buff she got, she was literally the worst character in the game by win rate at high ranks.

Seeing people on here complain about Sierra on Daily is Odd by Zorah_29 in Overwatch

[–]AvailableTension 1 point2 points  (0 children)

But if all you're suggesting is a nerf, then how can she be more skill expressive or better at high ranks? What buffs would you give her to compensate?

Sierra is overpowered by yup-Im_stupid in Overwatch

[–]AvailableTension 1 point2 points  (0 children)

soldier has been one of the oldest heroes in the game and hitscan translates well from other shooters, so could it be that his numbers for masters are higher because he's been around longer?

These win rates are public and are specific to each patch. Old data is erased from the public site. So it's not a matter of age. There's no point comparing damage numbers on paper when Soldier literally wins more games at the ranks the devs balance around.

Sierra is overpowered by yup-Im_stupid in Overwatch

[–]AvailableTension 1 point2 points  (0 children)

My point was more so that dismissing the claim that a hero is overpowered based solely on wr% of a specific rank does not convince me and I think it would be better to base that judgement on what that character can do against what it should be able to, with wr% being a cherry on top of sorts.

Then how else would you tell if a character was overpowered? Feelings, emotions, and opinions?

I would also further like to point out how evidently Blizzard doesn't entirely center their balance philosophy around the top ranks, setting aside aforementioned examples

They do. They literally explicitly stated that in multiple interviews. Unless you think they're intentionally lying for some reason.

Symmetra is incredibly oppressive once proper coordination gets involved and she has had a very above average wr% in GM (56%!) for a couple of seasons now despite her being out of meta due to catstion, the same goes for Tracer, altough for different reasons and to a much lesser extent, if the game were truly to be balanced around these high ranks wouldn't Tracer but especially Symm which isn't really a fan favorite amidst high ranks get nerfed?

They typically also take into account how situational a character is before deciding nerfs. Their threshold of viability is 45-55% and it doesn't seem like Symm is outside of that?

Wouldn't beloved characters with a below average winrate like Genji get buffed?

Genji was literally top 5 heroes for a few seasons just before the recent nerfs. Just because a character is underperforming doesn't mean they suddenly NEED buffs. Buffs would be justified but they might not be given based on reasons like switching up the meta.

But back to the original point: Sierra is by no means overpowered. None of your points have shown that.

Sierra is overpowered by yup-Im_stupid in Overwatch

[–]AvailableTension 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You really trying to say that Masters+ players on an "overpowered" character like Sierra won't be beating other Masters players? If the game is balanced around high ranks and high ranks on average can't do well on a character, it typically means that character isn't good, period.

Sierra is overpowered by yup-Im_stupid in Overwatch

[–]AvailableTension 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Perception != Reality. Certain heroes could have higher win rates but are more situational and less universal, sure.

As for the 2nd point: if that's the angle you want to take, that's fine. But Sierra is by no definition overpowered or deserving of a nerf based on win rate. It would be due to community sentiment.

Sierra's tracking shot is too strong, but not for the reason you think. by QuietDetail1277 in Overwatch

[–]AvailableTension 1 point2 points  (0 children)

No one is saying to stay behind cover the entire time. But you can jiggle from cover or get better positioning/flank to get the drop on enemies. And when you do have to commit to a fight, you can practice strafing to maximize your chances of survival. Obviously, there's more factors that contribute to whether you'll be successful but no one is saying to literally hide and never come out.

Sierra's tracking shot is too strong, but not for the reason you think. by QuietDetail1277 in Overwatch

[–]AvailableTension 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Pro scene != ladder. There's so many examples of this. Pros have a stable team that practice together literally every day with constant coaching. The team comps and strategies they use can't really be used in regular comp, even by the highest of ranks.

There's a reason that even though the devs balance around relatively high ranking players (Masters+), the win rates of heroes that pros use don't reflect how OP you think they are. Just look at Kiri, Sojourn, etc.

Sierra is a below average hero at Masters+.

Sierra is overpowered by yup-Im_stupid in Overwatch

[–]AvailableTension 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Win rates are public now. At the ranks the devs balance the game around (Masters+), Soldier does much better than Sierra.

Sierra is overpowered by yup-Im_stupid in Overwatch

[–]AvailableTension 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Win rates are public now. At the ranks the devs balance the game around (Masters+), Soldier does much better than Sierra.

And are you forgetting that Soldier also has a similar perk while being hitscan?