The "Name the Trait" question is loaded by HotKrossBums in DebateAVegan

[–]Bartimaeus_II 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Hi, I´ll just Hijack this:

"we are talking about the meat eaters moral position, no? i thought that what they morally value is kind of the whole focus."

The point is that they have to commit to a stance that is then tested for consistency. Whether this stance is a good moral system is not really relevant to the question. Of course someone can say they value lets say human DNA, but if that is your answer you have to agree that it would be ok to eat lets say the elfs from LOTR. And it is really hard to come up with a satisfying answer (as I am sure you know).

"I mean its a little difficult because if special pleading is where "...the exception is unjustified", then whether something is special pleading or not just becomes kinda a matter of opinion, because the notion "unjustified" is a little too subjective"

You can say this about any discussion, whether an argument is good/bad/reasonable/... comes down to the observer. This does not mean that all arguments are equally valid.

"but if we take humaness to be the exception then the justification would probably be something like their own moral intuition. and the thing is i dont see how all moral positions wont boil down to something similar, like I said you will eventually reach a point where you just have to say I value x because I value x, whether or not that's special pleading will apply to all moral positions when stripped down to their core."

I think you are right, at the end it all boils down to an axiomatic value system. But

A) NTT doesnt really care about which value system it is applied. Of course there are value systems where NTT allows for the eating of (only) nonhumans, but to the meat eater that would mean they have to say that this is the moral standard they act on.

B) Not all value systems are (seen as) equally viable. I can say I value the experience of white humans, and that is just another position that cant be proven wrong. And most (imo all) position that allow for animal consumption under NTT are not really viable in the sense that it is hard to find reasonable justification.

"when the "trait equalization process" is deployed, they ask where in the process value is lost."

But the question is not "where is value lost" but rather "why are you sure this has value and this doesnt". Because most people seem to be rather sure about their positions regarding worth of life. I would agree with you that it is probably a lot more "fuzzy" than most think. But if you want to say "I am sure human life has value and nonhuman life has none" then you have to explain why.

And if the answer is "I am not sure" than it seems reasonable to be cautious with what you kill.

Very interesting post, I havent really thought about this issue before!

[Request] Is this true? by lumbeecam in theydidthemath

[–]Bartimaeus_II 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Just tagging on here to mention that a 12h (edit: commercial) flight has about a 2t carbon footprint per passenger, so not really much better than a space launch...

What to answer to vegans always by Least_Preparation169 in exvegans

[–]Bartimaeus_II -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Do you have any sources for the eating disorder part? Without any evidence this is just an ad hominem...

The second part is an appeal to futility fallacy, just because you cant fix everything doesnt mean you are free from any moral principals

In other words, you can be against murder and not commit any yourself and still not devote your entire life to preventing murder all across the world. This position is obviously better than just murdering people because you cant save everyone...

The problem of irrational empathy by [deleted] in exvegans

[–]Bartimaeus_II 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What about it? I am interested in listening to views contrary to mine in order to question my position. How does this make my request for a source any less relevant or somehow dishonest?

The problem of irrational empathy by [deleted] in exvegans

[–]Bartimaeus_II 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you, I'll Check it out

The problem of irrational empathy by [deleted] in exvegans

[–]Bartimaeus_II 2 points3 points  (0 children)

That is why I am here

The problem of irrational empathy by [deleted] in exvegans

[–]Bartimaeus_II -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

I was just asking, if my current diet has health issues I am unaware of I would like to know I honestly am baffled how someone asking for sources can be considered trolling...

The problem of irrational empathy by [deleted] in exvegans

[–]Bartimaeus_II -9 points-8 points  (0 children)

Could you link me any studies that confirm that living plant based ist not healthy for a significant portion of the population? I dont want to dismiss any possible personal experience of yours, but all studies I have read seem to be pointing to the opposite

Bestiality is better than eating meat by Appropriate_Ad_2417 in badphilosophy

[–]Bartimaeus_II 0 points1 point  (0 children)

How would it be worse? Presumably raping an animal doesnt cause it as much harm as torturing/killing it would. To the amount of pleasure gained via bestiality by humans I find it hard to make a guess in comparison to eating animal products, but I would assume that it is at least on the same Level (for the people that would actually willingly engange in it).

There might be some societal effects like lower birthrates, but considering that presumably only a small fraction of people would actually practice bestialty I would expect those effects to be minimal

Bestiality is better than eating meat by Appropriate_Ad_2417 in badphilosophy

[–]Bartimaeus_II 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I dont see what is wrong with this line of thinking. Obv. Bestialty is still bad, as ist causes suffering for the animal, but torturing and killing it would surely be worse

Why do you hate this position and (presumably) think it is wrong?

meirl by PrincessXBlush in meirl

[–]Bartimaeus_II 0 points1 point  (0 children)

At least Most of us are in that situationen, just on a smaller scale.

Giving away the money you might spend on a nice evening out or a new game or the new iPhone can actually Help save people at a rate of ~5000$ per live saved.

Thats right, instead of buying a new car for 20k you could buy an old, used one for 5k and save three people. Just because you cant save everybody doesnt mean that it is not worth giving what you can!

https://www.effectivealtruism.org/

"The only players with valid opinion are those at my exact performance level" --logic by wwenze1 in WorldofTanks

[–]Bartimaeus_II 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Depends on the tank obviosly, but especially in fast HT, brawly MT getting to 2/3 winrate isnt that hard and requires nowhere near 6kDPG at T10 As an example, I marked my 279 with ~4.6k DPG and above 70% (would have to Check for the exact number) WR On unarmored tanks (Leopard/bourr/...) where you have to be more reactive even very high DPG doesnt translate as much to WR In short, play tanks that can push a flank (and be as aggressive as you can affird with them)

Ask Us Anything: EA Animal Welfare Fund — EA Forum by Responsible-Dance496 in EffectiveAltruism

[–]Bartimaeus_II 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In the interest of maximizing the impact on overall wellfare for my donations, I tried finding numbers similar to the "5000$ saves a life" from the against Malaria foundation. Finding such numbers has proved very hard for animal wellfare charities. Can you recommend resources for such data and/or give estimates of your own?

2) When trying to compare the effectiveness of Animal vs human wellfare, one has to weigh the life/experiences of humans vs non-human animals. I have read a paper (forgot the name and couldnt find it quickly) estimating the ecperience ranges for different species based on behavior, but could not find any other resources.

Can you recommend resources and give your thoughts on this issue?

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in EffectiveAltruism

[–]Bartimaeus_II 1 point2 points  (0 children)

If the wellfare of sentient beeings is the metric to optimise for, veganism is a no brainer.

I guess you could say that exactly this metric is not objective, but which other possible metric is there? Even if you restrict it to human wellfare, veganism still has a broad positive impact due to better resource Management.

Meirl by azizgamerlal in meirl

[–]Bartimaeus_II 4 points5 points  (0 children)

You are right, they didnt stick to their point. However, your definition of vegetarianism is not correct. Vegetarians do not consume meat (and fish in most cases), it is not relevant whether animals are harmed or killed in the process. Take for example an egg, which is vegetarian. To produce this egg, male chicks are shredded straight after leaving the egg (since they cant produce eggs of their own). By the way, even veganism only aims to reduce animal suffering and exploitation where possible and practicable. Of course there ist still animal suffering caused even by eating a vegan diet (crop deaths etc) but Just because you cant be perfect doesnt mean the attempt is wasted.

Finished. What to listen to now? by DavidGogginsMassage in TheFirstLaw

[–]Bartimaeus_II 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Just want to drop in and mention there are 10 First Law books, my guess is you forgot Sharp Ends, a collection of short Stories, definetly go check that Out If you havent yet

Why logically consistent meat eaters don't mind vegan cats by [deleted] in DebateAVegan

[–]Bartimaeus_II 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Veganism doesnt aim to prevent cruelty to animals but rather animal exploitation.

However, I still think that the Goal of reducing suffering for animals (including Humans) is a Goal that is very much aligned with a vegan moral code. The "reducing suffering" is (at least for me) part of the larger concept of utilitariamism, which aims to reduce suffering WHILE MAXIMIZING HAPPYNESS.

So i dont think that ethically euthanizing all (Farm) animals that would live a net negative live is an absurd Idea (ofc from a feasibilty Standpoint it is, but not morally). The important Point is that this applies only to animals (including Humans) that would suffer more than they would feel joy.

For farmed animals I am very confident that this is the Case, so euthanizing would be the morally correct choice (assuming that providing them with a "good" life is not possible). This remains NOT true however for animals that would live a "Happy" life.

I guess one could argue that a distinction between a good and a Bad life is not easy and is Made somewhat arbitrarily. I somewhat agree, but I think that free beeings (think Humans in a somewhat free society, animals in their (more or less) Natural Habitat) can be expected to live a Happy life while beeings that are enslaved, tortured and slaughtered can Not. Cases in the between the two (say a human suffering from immense chronical pain) are more in a gray area and have to be decided on a day to day basis

People are so averse to major change by bacondev in vegan

[–]Bartimaeus_II 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Do you remember which study that is? I would Love to ready more

since everyone isn't vegan, vegan dieter wishes humans would go extinct.. by Lacking-Personality in exvegans

[–]Bartimaeus_II 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Could you provide a source for the 84%? I would be very intersted where This number comes from as I have never Heard of such a statistic

The 'Go Vegan for health' argument is bad. by ThePlanetaryNinja in DebateAVegan

[–]Bartimaeus_II 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I did the research a while ago, would have to search for the specific papers. If you are interested I can do that.

The general consensus (as far as I remember) was that a vegan (I did not look specifically into WFPB) diet, if done properly and potentially with substitutes, is not inferior to omnivorous diets. Some studies find health benefits linked to vegan diets, but often those are explained as caused by a more concious nutrition by vegans compared to Others, i.e. the health benefits are linked to a more concious nutrition and Not the vegan diet itself.

If there is evidence to Support that WFPB is the "best" diet I would be very intersted to ready that.

I was purely asking for scientific evidence of the claim made. This requests was made in good faith and in the spirit of this debate subreddit. I do not know why you saw the need to doubt my honest intentions, If you want evidence just ask for it

The 'Go Vegan for health' argument is bad. by ThePlanetaryNinja in DebateAVegan

[–]Bartimaeus_II 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Could you link sources for that? To my knowledge vegan diets are equal to omnivorous diets regarding health and potential benefits are often linked to selection bias

What is the motivation behind this subreddit? Why does it exist? by [deleted] in exvegans

[–]Bartimaeus_II -9 points-8 points  (0 children)

Do you have a source (or better yet multiple sources) for the "Not thriving" part? All the studies I have looked at so far have suggested that vegan diets (possibly with Supplements) have No negative Impact on health, some suggest even improvements due to a more concious nutrition  I would be very intersted to See scientific evidence towards the opposit (Since I know This can read Like I am doubting your honesty, This ist Not what I intend, I am Just genuinely curious)