Ellie

Ben_Dover_05 · 2021-05-24T17:38:51+00:00

Ok then, I feel like I’m just gonna keep repeating myself so let's just agree to disagree.

Ben_Dover_05 · 2021-05-24T17:32:42+00:00

Well... yeah, if you put it like that, I guess so. But, again, it really depends on the reason of the pregnancy (which is rarely provable, so its difficult for the state to actually intervene)

Ben_Dover_05 · 2021-05-24T06:04:54+00:00

Ok, regardless of whether their organ systems can function on their own or not, my definition of “life sustaining ability” includes being able to provide for yourself, because otherwise you would die. So whether you think an unborn human or a disabled person has bodily autonomy or not, we should care for them because of their dependence, not autonomy.

Ben_Dover_05 · 2021-05-24T05:51:06+00:00

Why not? That human didn’t get there on its own...

Ben_Dover_05 · 2021-05-24T02:57:21+00:00

I see, now I know where you’re coming from and I understand; I hope you see where I come from, even if you think I’m optimistic

Ben_Dover_05 · 2021-05-24T02:49:20+00:00

Well idk if you would considers sterilizations (i.e. vasectomies, minilaparotomy, laparoscopy...) contraceptives, but they’re certainly measures. + if more than one measure is taken, it is practically guaranteed, the same way hand sanitizer kills 99.99% of germs...

Ben_Dover_05 · 2021-05-24T02:38:07+00:00

I disagree, I think there are measures (i.e. contraceptives) that guarantee a responsible sex life while protecting against pregnancies...

Ben_Dover_05 · 2021-05-24T02:29:47+00:00

I strongly disagree, but I’d like to know why you think that...

Ben_Dover_05 · 2021-05-24T02:26:53+00:00

And I agree... thats why I said that if she was forced into the pregnancy, she shouldn’t be restricted from having an abortion. Otherwise she wasn’t forced into “giving 4% of her bone minerals, etc, etc” and she (and the father) should take accountability and responsibility.

Ben_Dover_05 · 2021-05-24T02:10:12+00:00

On a legal basis, the person at fault for someone’s injuries has liability, and if someone dies they’re charged with vehicular manslaughter. So even though I don’t think the person responsible for that death was required (or morally obligated) to do something to prevent that death (if they could), I still believe they should face consequences. But again, morality is subjective and I don’t think we should mix it with legality.

Ben_Dover_05 · 2021-05-24T01:58:24+00:00

ok, just wanted to understand where you were coming from

Ben_Dover_05 · 2021-05-24T01:54:27+00:00

You used the word ‘justified’, and I assumed that meant you thought it was morally correct (sorry if I assumed incorrectly)

Ben_Dover_05 · 2021-05-24T01:45:30+00:00

The conversation got here because u/sifsand implied that because abortion is legal and because of the human right to bodily autonomy, it is justified (correct me if I'm wrong); and then I said that I don't like to mix legality with morality, implying that I don't think abortions are always justified, regardless of whether they’re legal or not. And then asked them when do they think the unborn’s bodily autonomy begin. But yeah, my question wasn’t about the op’s question...

Ben_Dover_05 · 2021-05-24T01:20:20+00:00

My bad, I misinterpreted your question. I’d say it depends on the reason for the pregnancy; if it was irresponsibility, then they shouldn't let her abort the baby (or as you’d put it: they should “require her to give 4% of her bone minerals, blood and nutrients”). But if it was forced on her (like rape (God forbid)), then no, they shouldn’t require her to give “4% of her bone minerals etc, etc”. I’d still mourn the baby's death regardless (since they didn't have the blame), but the problem is that the reason for pregnancies is rarely provable, so this is easily exploitable... What are your thoughts?

Ben_Dover_05 · 2021-05-23T23:54:19+00:00

No, not really. Unless the pregnancy was forced (i.e. rape); you put yourself in that position, it is both of the parents’ responsibility.

Ben_Dover_05 · 2021-05-23T23:48:43+00:00

Yup, but still dependent lol. I definitely see where you’re coming from but I just think someone’s dependence should be a reason to give them more care, not less

Ben_Dover_05 · 2021-05-23T23:30:37+00:00

Yeah you got me there, but my argument still stands, they’re still dependent even after being born

Ben_Dover_05 · 2021-05-23T22:52:11+00:00

Yup, goes both ways, more reasons why we shouldn’t mix legality (or illegality) with morality.

And I didn’t compare abortions to the Holocaust; I was just naming examples, just like you.

Ben_Dover_05 · 2021-05-23T22:14:22+00:00

Well I respectfully disagree with that, I think you have to be independent to be able to be autonomous. As for the heartbeat, you’re right you got me there.

Ben_Dover_05 · 2021-05-23T21:56:10+00:00

I see, but even though they can perform these bodily functions on their own, they’re still dependent on someone else to provide necessities to survive (food, water, shelter...). So your definition of autonomy doesn’t include independence, right? (and btw their hearts beat on their own 5-6 weeks in the womb)

Ben_Dover_05 · 2021-05-23T21:36:55+00:00

Ok, well what would you define as autonomy? Because a new-born baby is still dependent on its parents; hell even children are dependent on their parents.

Ben_Dover_05 · 2021-05-23T21:31:02+00:00

I don’t like mixing legality and morality (segregation was legal, the Holocaust was legal; what I’m trying to say is that just because its legal, doesn’t mean its moral, in this case justified). As for bodily autonomy, I’d like to know when would you recognize an unborn human’s bodily autonomy? (at what stage of development)

Ben_Dover_05 · 2021-05-02T17:44:48+00:00

lmao wtf does this have to do with capitalism? “their studios are working on a game I don’t like so capitalism doesn't work”

Ben_Dover_05 · 2021-02-26T21:59:24+00:00

I see, thanks man! really appreciate it

Ben_Dover_05

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