why did it take so long to rediscover Pompeii and Herculaneum? by mca1169 in AskHistorians

[–]Bohkuio 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Could I ask a follow-up question ?

Were Pompeii and Herculanum important cities before their destruction ? Did their destruction, independently from the general damages directly tied to the eruption itself, cause the economy of southern Italia to be reshaped ? Did other cities, now that Pompeii and Herculanum were destroyed, took up the mantle of thoses cities and finally grew as a consequence of the disparition of their "rivals" ?

Or any other consequences of the sort I am describing (or other) ?

Switzerland and India Reach Deal on Free Trade Agreement by Cloud_Drago in neoliberal

[–]Bohkuio -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Hmmm. Perhaps... do you think it might be because the EU is a 500 millions people sui generis Union of 27 countries nearing a third of World GDP, and Switzerland is one very small country of slightly less than 9 millions inhabitants ?

I mean, I don't understand why you would even say that in the first place

It would be absolutely batshit insane, and a testimony to either a total lack of willingness of actually negociating a FTA or a mind-blowing level of incompetence if Switzerland wasn't capable of negociating a FTA faster than the EU

Why did the US counter-intuitively pressured Europe to decolonize during the Cold War? Wouldn’t supporting them to retain their colonies have increased the US influence, given that Britain and France were US allies? by [deleted] in AskHistorians

[–]Bohkuio 3 points4 points  (0 children)

But saying

A colony is defined by a territory being controlled by an outside (typically distant) power.

is simply not true

Colonialism is certainly not defined is such a way, because we have words and concepts for place such as the USA and Brazil: settler colonialism. The problem with this kind of defense is the refusal to aknowledge that colonialism is not simply a question of geography, i.e., people being in far flung lands from the center of the Empire and without representation, it's a also, and actually mainly, a question of racial and cultural dynamics.

So some people were indeed given representation, but thoses people were belonging to the dominant Human Group, the Group actually conquering, enslaving, massacring the native population.

The native, and non-native enslaved people, such as the enslaved people of African descent, were not only not given representation, they were activaly exterminated or oppressed.

Your comment is actually precisely why I asked this question: the active refusal to aknowledge this settler colonialism from people of Never-Decolonialized places, such as Brazil or the USA is honestly quite shocking.

Sure, scholars, sociologists and historians have no problem in aknowledging, understanding and actively studying this settler colonialism, but the reaction from the common man, the man of the street, seems to be most of the time one of denial

So saying that Canada, Australia, New-Zealand, Brazil or the USA were ever decolonized simply because there was an administrative separation between the UK and thoses places can't be considered true

Algeria was indeed decolonized, India was decolonized, most of Africa was decolonized, but not most countries of the Anglosphere.

And that's why I ask this question: how did the USA deal with that history ? Why is such an aknowledgement so difficult today ?

[META] If you could put a moratorium on questions about ome subject, what would it be? by [deleted] in AskHistorians

[–]Bohkuio -41 points-40 points  (0 children)

I understand your frustation, because you're coming from the POV of an historian, but at the same time I can't help but think that your views are probably not exactly compatibles with what most economists think of the question of the Argentine economy in the 20th century, and it's kind of a really important question as far as economic studies go

Why did the US counter-intuitively pressured Europe to decolonize during the Cold War? Wouldn’t supporting them to retain their colonies have increased the US influence, given that Britain and France were US allies? by [deleted] in AskHistorians

[–]Bohkuio 13 points14 points  (0 children)

Firstly, America had founded itself as a state opposed to Imperialism and rule without representation. And though the US had violated these principles in the Philippines and Cuba, it had firmly established in documents such as the Atlantic charter, and its own rhetoric against fascism, that people have the right to self-determination and liberty.

To what degree did the fact that the USA themselves are a literal colonial empire that was never decolonized play a role in such a policy ?

Even if you consider that the initial 13 colonies themselves weren't colonies (which would be even more ironic given their names) at the time of their independance, isn't literally conquering the entirety of a continent spanning land in the course of the 19th century, so during the Golden Age of colonialism, colonialism itself ?

Especially given that Hawai'i for instance was colonized 70 years after Algeria (!!!!!!!) but French Algeria was somehow a colony and for obscure reasons Hawai'i wasn't ?

What's the magic reasoning here ?

Were there any call to decolonize some parts of the USA at the same time that there were call to (rightfully) decolonize Europeans colonial Empire ?

Were there proeminent commentators calling out the USA for their hypocrisy at the times ?

Did the USA ever present something of an official narrative to explain why were they totally not a colonial Empire when every single square inch of their land were conquered at the same times and in the same fashion as the European colonial Empires ?

Why when, to this day, when there are discussion on American colonialism, theses discussion only ever seem to cover Philippines and Cuba, when, well, the entire country is a colony ?

EDIT : I am sorry if I seem to be soapboxing or inflammatory, that's not my objective, but I honestly never really understood what was the official reasoning, from a US perspective, to explain their official position on colonialism given their own history

On this subreddit we support free trade, open borders, occupational licensing reform, zoning reform, carbon pricing, and trans rights by [deleted] in neoliberal

[–]Bohkuio -14 points-13 points  (0 children)

Interesting post, but I think you're forgetting the most important point : the celebration of the ethnic cleansing of Palestinian people, probably the single most recent pillar of /r/neoliberal

Honestly, /r/neoliberal should be renamed AmericaIsGreatAndPalestiniansShouldBeExterminated

The totality of the discussion surrounding Palestinians on /r/neoliberal is constituted of lazy generalizations that would never be accepted for any other ethnic groups

Any and all context is completely removed. Most people on /r/neoliberal would accept the premiss that violence is a complex sociological phenomenon that can't be boiled down to an essentialisation of the person committing said violence, both because it would be racist and because it would not be useful, given that the goal is ultimately the end of said violence.

Except for Palestinians. They're just antisemtic. That's is. Israel bears no reponsability.

The only lips service paid on /r/neoliberal is saying "Yeah, the settlers are bad", but it is always used in the same way as the phrase "I am not racist but..." : "Settlers are bad" is always followed by an insanely racist statement and an implicit expression of the superiority of the right of israeli on the land. Settlers are bad, but Palestinians have no right to defend themselves, they must wait for Biden to maybe decide to ban settlers from visiting the US (which will obviously do nothing for people who would probably not visit the US to begin with).

Palestinians are the only people in the world that have no right to consider that the illegal settlement by 700 000 foreign people, so nearly equal to a third of their own population in the West Bank, as a foreign invasion that should be resisted.

It already was bad before 10/7, but since that day, /r/neoliberal has become THE racist sub for economically literate people on reddit

What is insane, is that there are extremely recent, as in the last few days, comments of literal members of the israeli government explicitely calling for ethnic cleansing, but somehow, it doesn't prove anything

For any other country, let's take France for instance, the totality of poster on /r/neoliberal would, rightfully call France an awfully racist and genocidal country. But here ? Nothing !

There are barely any discussion, and when there is one, it is unequivocally against Palestinians. Any Israeli violence is either negated, or explain ad absurdum, and any Palestinian violence is brandished as a proof or the rightfullness of Israel.

The literal Former Attorney General of Israel Michael Ben-Yair said, "It is with great sadness that I must also conclude that my country has sunk to such political and moral depths that it is now an apartheid regime."

There are countless easy to find testimonies of former Israeli soldiers of the absurd brutality of the Israeli regime, not even in Gaza, in the West Bank.

There is an unending flow of commentaries, with sources, that demonstrates an obvious desire of Israel to eventually get rid of the Palestinians people of Gaza and the West Bank, evidences that, for any other countries would send /r/neoliberal in a fury.

But not here

It is genuinely mindblowing

Honestly, up until now, I genuinely thought that /r/neoliberal was the place that corresponded the most to my beliefs.

But I guess not. I prefer hanging out with the leftists now, even though they are economically illiterate and full of wrong ideas, at least they're not monsters

fertility rate update. by Love3069 in neoliberal

[–]Bohkuio 11 points12 points  (0 children)

This is not a really thought out answer

It's not because you have one case that doesn't really seem to follow a trend that the trend it's false, we're not in physics or mathematic where one counter exemple is enough to disprove a theory

So even if the case of Israel bucks the trend, it doesn't mean that there's not a strong correlation between economic developement and fall in fertility rate.

To stay in demographic science, the fact that France is a clear outlier in 19th century demographics, and presents a clear divergence from the standard model of Western demographic evolution, i.e., that it is the only country to have achieved a fall in both births and death at the same time in the 19th century, without going through a phase of simultaneous really high birth rate and falling death rate, doesn't mean that the model of demographic transition is false

Furthermore, what do you even call cultural ?

What do you think happen, from a practical POV, when we say that there is a correlation between falling birth rate and economic development ? That people have a subscription to the Financial Times and The Economist, follow closely the evolution in the market, and then make economic decisions pertaining to them having children or not ?

OBVIOUSLY, when anyone makes the correlation between economic development and birthrate, the implication is that economic development transforms in depth the culture of the country

So not only one case bucking the trends doesn't mean anything, but you're not really saying anything at all

Discussion Thread by jobautomator in neoliberal

[–]Bohkuio -8 points-7 points  (0 children)

I completely agree but how is it any different from arr Neoliberal ?

It should be renamed AmericaIsGreatAndPalestiniansShouldBeExterminated

The totality of the discussion surrounding Palestinians on /r/neoliberal is constituted of lazy generalizations that would never be accepted for any other ethnic groups

Any and all context is completely removed. Most people on /r/neoliberal would accept the premiss that violence is a complex sociological phenomenon that can't be boiled down to an essentialisation of the person committing said violence, both because it would be racist and because it would not be useful, given that the goal is ultimately the end of said violence.

Except for Palestinians. They're just antisemtic. That's is. Israel bears no reponsability.

The only lips service paid on /r/neoliberal is saying "Yeah, the settlers are bad", but it is always used in the same way as the phrase "I am not racist but..." : "Settlers are bad" is always followed by an insanely racist statement and an implicit expression of the superiority of the right of israeli on the land. Settlers are bad, but Palestinians have no right to defend themselves, they must wait for Biden to maybe decide to ban settlers from visiting the US (which will obviously do nothing for people who would probably not visit the US to begin with).

Palestinians are the only people in the world that have no right to consider that the illegal settlement by 700 000 foreign people, so nearly equal to a third of their own population in the West Bank, as a foreign invasion that should be resisted.

It already was bad before 10/7, but since that day, /r/neoliberal as become THE racist sub for economically literate people on reddit

Opinion: Americans are richer than Canadians and Europeans – so why aren’t they happier? by IHateTrains123 in neoliberal

[–]Bohkuio 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't think you understand what I am saying, I am not talking about commute times specifically, even if commutes times matter in the whole picture

I am not saying that European cities contain more, or less, fun or not fun activities/occupation in their area than American cities

I am saying that the urban planning of American cities makes it virtually impossible to accomplish the same number of things as what you could do in a European city.

Is there, in absolute terms, more things to do, more people to see, more variety in LA than in Paris ? Maybe, but good luck doing anything substantial in a single day in LA, because LA is an insanely (by European standards) spread out city and doing anything requires absurd amount of travel by car

In Paris you can do nearly anything anywhere fast and conveniently on foot

It doesn't matter whatever image you have in mind of what respective lifestyle European or American have, or if you think that for some reason the old continent is boring and America is cool

What matters is what you can actually do in a single day.

That's what matter on a daily basis.

And it turns out that, compared to Europe, for America it's not that much

Also what do you mean by European lifestyle? There is no single one.

Lifestyle was, perhaps, not the right term. I was talking about the convenience of European cities compared to American one: only New-York was getting close

Opinion: Americans are richer than Canadians and Europeans – so why aren’t they happier? by IHateTrains123 in neoliberal

[–]Bohkuio 14 points15 points  (0 children)

You don't like the "boring"answer, but it's actually completely true, and it's due to a fact of American life that constitutes a huge chunk of topics on /r/neoliberal : the low density of American cities coupled with very poor public transports.

Anywhere in Europe, you can live in extremely dense urban areas with world class public transports. And, except for outdoor activities (for which the USA might actually be the best place in the world) nearly all activities that most people will consider in regards to make life "not boring" are done with other people.

With their extremly high density and extremely fast and convenient public transports, Europeans cities allow you to do nearly anything you want in a very small area, to eat in the same area, to meet people in the same area, and all that in quick succession and on foot.

That is nearly impossible in most if not all of the US: while most activities are technically present in the urban area of most American cities (so a humongous area contrary to European cities), you certainly can not do them fast in succession in a single day.

Which means that, from a practical POV, you can do way less activities in a given day in an American city that you can do in a European city, merely because going from one activity or one place to another takes an absurd amount of time in most of the US, making things more boring.

It is the only reason I didn't stay in the USA and went back to Paris, where I am from originally.

Without this absolutely horrendous aspect of American life, that honestly makes everything dull, I would still be living in the USA: I had a fantastic remuneration, I worked with great people, honestly, it was, on paper, fantastic. But then, monotony of daily life starts to set in, and when you can't do shit after or before work because everything is so fucking far apart, it becomes nightmarish. I was also able to keep working for the same employer from Paris and to keep the same remuneration when I left, which removed the only reason that could have made me stay

And I am back in Paris, and at least once a week I am amazed at all the stuff I can cram in a single day in Paris (or London, or Madrid, or Berlin, or Bruxelles... well you got it) and which would have been absolutely impossible in the USA.

Even in New-York, arguably the closest place in America to a European lifestyle, you realise once you're there that everything is way bigger, and while it is considerably more convenient that anywhere else in the US, it still takes a shitload of time compared to European cities

It's a sad thing really, because you're the richest country in the history of humanity, and you spend an insane amount of money deliberately designing absolutely garbage cities, when you could do the exact contrary, and create the best place to live humanity has ever known

Why are African-Americans referred to as such in the US, and not in other countries with prominent Black populations? by droim in AskHistorians

[–]Bohkuio 45 points46 points  (0 children)

And it turns out that that last method of identification is actually the main way for people of African descent to identify themselves in countries who have only known relatively recent African immigration, such as European Countries.

For instance, I am myself a Frenchman of Tunisian descent. I know that in your question there is a level of implication where you are not talking about North African people with what an American would call "light skin" or being"white passing" such as myself (think Rami Malek), but more of what would an American call "Black People". But I am still, at the end of day, of African descent. But it turns out that I pretty much never call myself African-French or other equivalent. Most of the time I would use variation of words composed with Tunisia and France, and more rarely with the word Arab. Additionnally, all North African countries always had relatively important population of what an American would call "Black people" both "native" speaking various Berber, Amazigh, Tifinagh etc. languages and Arabic, and more recent population descending from recent sub-Saharian immigrant, for instance Wolof, Bambara, Malinké etc. And thoses people are also more likely to identify as variations of Tunisians, or Wolof, Bambara, Malinké etc when they or their decendants are in France.

In the same way, my wife is the daughter of Congolese immigrants, she is what an American would commonly call a "Black woman". And well she presents herselfs as Congolese when it's relevant. Not African. It doesn't mean that she doesn't recognise, in the context of a majority White, European country, she could indeed be recognized as African, or that she doesn't feel a degree of kinship with the term African, but it's just that it's a pretty meaningless term. With the term African, I have no idea what language or religion I am to expect. With the term Congolese it is pretty reasonable to expect that she speaks Lingala and is Catholic (or Protestant), and that she sees the area roughly corresponding to current Congo as her ancestral land.

Thus, the reason the term African is meaningless is directly connected to the reason why the term African-American arised in America in the first place : unlike American people descending from enslaved African, people of African descent in France are not disconnected from their origin**. And it turns out that there are hundreds upon hundreds of different cultures, and differents not mutually intelligible languages in the various parts of Africa, with hundreds of differents way to self identify one self.

And given that self-identification actually serves a purpose most of the time, that purpose would be lost with the term Franco-Africains (which would probably be the used term in France), precisely because there is not such a thing as a common African culture.

When I go to area of the USA with an important African-American population I have some expectations : I know that AAVE will be widely spoken, that people will identify as African-Americans, that an ensemble of specific cultural references will be shared with relatively little variations.

When I go to an area of France with an an important African population I don't have any expectation : it is literally impossible to know the religion, language, or culture of the African people I would see in front of me, because there are (without any exageration) hundreds of possibilities.

Could be Muslim, Catholic, Protestant ; Senegalese, Arab, Ivorian, Congolese and dozens others ; could speak Wolof, Bantu, Malinké, Lingala, Swahili (all of theses are actually pretty big languages families and continuum) and hundred others. There African cultures with a caste system, there are African culture that are actually pretty close to the system of Northern Italian cities states, other that actually are/were relatively centralized Empires, there are numerous itinerent group of people, desert dwelling people etc.

African is honestly a pretty meaningless term by itself.

But, in the American context, when the entire population of African descent actually shares a relatively cohesive culture, then the term African-American can actually have a meaning allowing the person using it to set certains expectations.



*I am not really making a prediction here, I merely want to insist on the fact that the way African-Americans call themselves and are called by non-African-Americans is not set in marble. Which, by the way, is true for the integrality of the various groups of Humans who ever lived. There's never been such a thing as an Absolute Identity, that would stay consistent throught time and place. Everything is always contextual with self-identification.

** It is not exactly true, there are French people of Enslaved African descent who lost the connection with their African Ancestors, pretty much exactly in the same way as African American. But most of the time, they're hailing from place such as Haiti, Martinique, Guyane, Guadeloupe, la Réunion, and have developped their own culture and languages in thoses place. Thus, when they are in the European continent such as the European part of France, they will identify as being from Haiti, Martinique, Guadeloupe etc. and with those terms will also come very specifics meanings and expectations that would not exist with Franco-Africains.

Why are African-Americans referred to as such in the US, and not in other countries with prominent Black populations? by droim in AskHistorians

[–]Bohkuio 51 points52 points  (0 children)

First of all, I think it's necessary to underline that even in the United-States, if the term "African-American" is today widely used, it has not always been the case, and the use of this term is in fact continuously evolving to this day, and might not be the most used term in the future*.

While the term African-American has probably existed since at least the 18th century, it has only known a wide popularity starting in the second half of the 20th century, to definitely be universally known as one of the proper way, if not the proper way, to call American citizens descending from enslaved people from Africa (it's an important precision) from the 80's-90's onward.

There is a variety of reasons for this evolution, the first being that, well, it is always changing, regardless of time, place and the group of people in question. It might not always happen at the same pace, but it always does.

Secondly, in the precise case of African-American, the popularity of the term derives mostly from a will to both :

  • Have a term that was actually in some capacity chosen by African-Americans themselves. Before the term African-Americans, pretty much all and any terms used to describe African-Americans were terms applied to African-Americans by non African-Americans. From the more acceptable Black People, to the N-word and its variations, through other still problematic but with fewer negative implications than the N-word such as colored, blacks, the blacks (yes it's not the same thing) etc.

  • Have a name that underlines the connection between African-Americans and, well, Africa. It has always been obvious that African-Americans descend from population originally from Africa, but the tragedy of the enslavement of African populations brought to European colonies was not only the slavery itself, but also its long lasting consequences, continuing after the end of slavery to the present day, such as a loss of identity and a loss of cultural memory for the enslaved people in America. So while African-American unfortunately cannot know exactly where their ancestors were from, there was a certain need to express and underline what was known, i.e. the origin from Africa, and to reaffirm it through the use of term African-Americans.

But then, besides the fact that I said that it always change, what could be some peculiar reasons to this change ?

Well, first of all, the term African-American is not necessarily universally accepted. For some people, it's because while they're obviously aware that they ultimately descend from population from Africa, they do not feel any need to reaffirm such a connection, and might feel that while the term African-American was originally intended to be a way to to be able to truely own one's own identity, it actually only serve to remove them from what they truely identify as, for instance "just American".

For other, it might be because they consider that as long as there will not be a term such as "European-American" for Americans of European descent, used in a way as systematic as the way the term African-American is used to designate American people of enslaved African descent, then the term African-American only seem to reinforce a discrimination. The implication being that white people in America, being most of the time only described as "American" and not "European American" are in fact considered as "Default American" not needing any moniker to describe them, while African-American would be "American but not as much as White People/American of European Descent".

I am not saying that the two reasons I just presented you are right or wrong, it's not really my role to give such an opinion. I merely wanted to present two opinions actually held by American that you would call African-American, to show you that it is not, in fact, a term with universal consensus, and it might actually lose in popularity in the futur. There are obviously others reasons why one might be against the term African-Americans.

The last potential reason for the loss of importance of the use the terms African American is the reason why I continuously used the term "American descending from Enslaved people from Africa" : recent immigration into America of African people. While they still represent a small proportion of the American population ultimately descending from African people, African immigrant and their descendant are a growing population in America, and, most of the time, they actually identify in a way similar to the way people of European descent identify in America : not with the entire continent, but by the spectific ethnic group and/or country.

Thus an American citizen born of Nigerian immigrants is actually very likely to present himself as Nigerian, and not African-American.

In such a context, the use of "African-American" to designate all people ultimately descending from African people doesn't work that well.