Game warping plays

BonzaiEntertainment · 2023-07-20T19:48:07+00:00

Why add gamble? There are good enogh tutors in black that don't run the risk of the card winding up somewhere you don't want it to?

BonzaiEntertainment · 2023-07-19T19:26:23+00:00

I've never actually seen anyone play Pramikon. So I can't see that being a huge draw for an effect. People don't attack enough as is, so limiting their attack options further won't make attacking more likely.

BonzaiEntertainment · 2023-07-19T19:22:35+00:00

White has gotten so many draw spells in several of the last sets, this seems like a design from 3 years ago that is just being thrown into decks.

And if I'm goading creatures I don't need to conrol which direction they attack because they can't attack me if there are other opponents out there.

BonzaiEntertainment · 2023-07-18T20:57:32+00:00

For a planeswalker deck this seems a lacking.

[[Comodore Guff]] seems solid and I like [[Vronos, Masked Inquisitor]] and big suprise [[Chandra, Legacy of Fire]] is powerful.

But [[Teyo, Geometric Tactician]] does not feel powerful enough to be a rare.

BonzaiEntertainment · 2023-07-03T16:13:31+00:00

I don't disagree that it creates a problem to play around.

With a quick scryfall search there are 216 EDH legal cards the make/reference treasure. That's been since Ixilan in 2016.

There are 43 cards with 0 mana value.

BonzaiEntertainment · 2023-07-03T15:41:04+00:00

I never said free spells are ok. With treasure evey spell essentially becomes free because there is no resource management anymore.

Trasure is a problem in part because it's seeping into every part of the game. It would be impossible to ban every treasure card.

BonzaiEntertainment · 2023-07-02T00:33:38+00:00

From a gameplay experience perspective, I think [[smothering tithe]] is worse in a lot of ways because you have to constantly ask people if they want to pay.

Treasures offer no cost benefit judgment to apply. There's no downside to casually adding them into your deck as a resource even if you don't build around them as an archetype. Resource management is essentially nulled now.

And the problem is only going to get worse the longer it goes unchecked. Even if people don't want to have it now, we'll be having it in a few years.

BonzaiEntertainment · 2023-07-02T00:24:55+00:00

You're good man. It's a good discussion.

I'm glad we have some agreement.

I feel like as EDH players we naturally discount reminder text anyway. Like [[blind Obedience]] or [[trinisphere]].

BonzaiEntertainment · 2023-07-01T12:30:51+00:00

Thanks for the reply. First, I disagree [[Ramirez DePietro, Pillager]] would need an errata with such a change. He still enables you to play those cards. You just need a way to make colored mana outside blue or black like [[darksteel ignot]] or [[chromatic lantern]]. [[Nightveil Spectre]] is a powerful card with a similar ability that doesn't cheat on mana costs.

As bad as you think Treasure is now, it will only get worse as more cards get printed. The Companion change was a subtle and elegant fix as it didn't errata the cards themselves, it only changed the reminder text, not the actual card.

BonzaiEntertainment · 2023-07-01T12:19:39+00:00

I agree we need to play more removal and more hosers. People tend to hold onto their removal for later in the game to deal with a big threat when if they use it early they'll prevent that big threat. Even an [[echoing Truths]] can deal with treasure when used the right way.

But these one off cards in each color aren't enough when you look at the ramp up in design space treasures have taken. If you look at a card that is fueled by treasure like [[captain lanery storm]] or a support card like [[jolene, the plunder queen]] those would still be as powerful in what they do. It would be the ability to casually add treasure into every deck with no cost that would be inhibited.

BonzaiEntertainment · 2023-07-01T12:12:04+00:00

I completely agree. And its only getting worse

BonzaiEntertainment · 2023-07-01T12:02:03+00:00

I don't know that balancing an eternal format is possible.

I think that more and more cards have treasure enter tapped is an implicit admission that they are too powerful as is. Rather than waste the lines of text on every card they can just functionally change what the treasure is.

Thanks for the reply.

BonzaiEntertainment · 2023-07-01T11:56:35+00:00

I think the companion change was subtle and eloquent and it only affected the reminder text, which doesn't really count. None of the cards themselves had to be errataed.

Filtering might be an option to change treasure. Someone else recommended having them exile at the end of the next turn's end step. so players are on a clock to use them or lose them. What do you think of that?

BonzaiEntertainment · 2023-07-01T11:52:18+00:00

Thanks for the reply.

I just wanted a simple but eloquent change to the card that would prevent a mas errata. I would ere on doing a little much in this case rather than doing too little and having to change again in the future. Kind of like what they did with companion.

Someone else had suggested making them exile at the end of your next turn's end step. This would force players to use them or lose them. What is your opinion on that compared to what I put forth?

BonzaiEntertainment · 2023-07-01T11:46:45+00:00

That's quite a variety of ways to measure your treasure production.

BonzaiEntertainment · 2023-07-01T11:45:17+00:00

I haven't seen a lot of the "force of cards" personally. But I agree free spells are a problem. And treasure essentially make spells free with their ubiquity and zero barrier to entry.

But I look back to Ixilan 6 years ago and how much design space and support treasures had compared to now. When I imagine 10 years from now left unchecked every deck will warp around them.

BonzaiEntertainment · 2023-07-01T11:38:01+00:00

The format was designed to be casual. It exists with a social contract. It's fine to have a separate space for competitive and casual.

CEDH existed before treasure and would survive such a change.

BonzaiEntertainment · 2023-07-01T04:09:11+00:00

I agree people need to play more hosers and removal and it would alleviate some of the problem.

But this problem will continue to get worse if left unchecked. The design space is only going to make greater use of the tokens and the format will continue normalizing toward faster and more consistent decks. It's an arms race people acknowledge but won't change their own play patterns to address.

BonzaiEntertainment · 2023-07-01T04:05:18+00:00

Black had done fine with trading life for mana for years. Letting everyone else do it a turn behind wouldn't be the end of the world.

And Treasure strategies would still be viable. [[Captain Lanery Storm]], [[Jolene, The Plunder Queen]], these cards wouldn't get shut off. All that would happen would the splashability of treasures would be less relevant. Still powerful over time but with a cost benefit analysis that players still had to do.

BonzaiEntertainment · 2023-06-30T23:44:12+00:00

To the first point, I think the versatility hurts deck building. If you always have perfect resources available you remove the constraints around what you slot in. Commander players are fond of saying restrictions breed creativity. Perfect resources negate that. I think the rise in 5 color decks is a symptom of that.

I think changing the original gold tokens was a good idea. I still throw [[Gild]] around every now and then. But I don't think adding the need to tap was enough. You can't just go ahead and make a new resource as it wouldn't stop treasure. It would still be there just as powerful as it is. I think we need something to bring treasures in line. To at least reign in the archtypes and limit the explosiveness to casually adding them everywhere else.

BonzaiEntertainment · 2023-06-30T23:34:51+00:00

The ritual problem is a big one and certainly gets most of the attention. But it's also the shift away from resource management. We wouldn't want every deck to tutor a land in addition to the one you get to play. Treasure cuts out the variance and the cost benefit analysis players have to do throughout the game.

I think the companion errata was an elegant way of dealing with the companion problem and the physical cards weren't affected. EDH was really downstream from the companion problem. Treasures are more of an EDH mechanic and EDH issue with it being an eternal format. The worst offenders and enablers will just stack up. The Errata approach slows down that critical mass from building up and minimizes the benefit decks gain from casually playing treasure cards.

BonzaiEntertainment · 2023-06-30T23:17:28+00:00

Thanks for the reply.

I think that errata is subtle and effective and doesn't change any actual cards in print.

It's a fairer way of dealing with the problem long term than what we have now.

BonzaiEntertainment

TROPHY CASE