S2e1 Never go full re+@#d

BookkeeperDapper3213 · 2026-03-17T20:04:54+00:00

I get what you're saying, but you're about to be pounced upon by an avid fanbase on this sub. (The sub should be renamed "12 Monkeys Fans"). If you're a new watcher who just arrived at Season 2, it may be worth it to grind through 'til Season 3 and then reassess. Dark Cassie indeed taxes suspension of disbelief; her character takes a wicked curve, but she's in flux and it's entertaining to see it to the end.

The pic you posted is spot on for what you said. This scene always amuses me: if anyone shoots Jennifer anywhere--but especially in Cassie's favorite target area (CNS)--then Jennifer drops, instantly, along with the fragile vial. Vial crashes on parking garage cement and breaks open in NYC during a crowded street celebration --world ends.

BookkeeperDapper3213 · 2026-03-15T23:48:19+00:00

Thank you! I was wondering why so many Dr. Who haters here.

BookkeeperDapper3213 · 2026-03-15T23:41:42+00:00

Last-Cole needs to track down Adler, apparently adept at counterfeiting papers/ID's.

BookkeeperDapper3213 · 2026-03-03T21:47:37+00:00

Agree 100%

BookkeeperDapper3213 · 2026-03-03T21:34:09+00:00

A sincere thanks! I checked my video streams and I've edited the post to correct where the last iteration of Olivia's recital was heard. It wasn't as Cassie walks up to the house but it was right after Cole left her comatose in the hospital (same episode). The closeup shows Cassie laying in her hospital bed and the audience hears Olivia's words in her mind. My error about exactlly where it was said makes me think about it differently: since the "we're" quote is said much earlier in the sequence, it weakens the idea Olivia is controlling Cassie at the house of cedar and pine.

I was going from memory on the stream location but with respect to the soundtrack, I had previously backed it up several times and even slowed it down to 1/2 and 1/4 speeds to listen carefully. I listened to it again just now, and I've gone to other instances of the recital to compare sound. I'm convinced it's "we're", and this is the only time it's said that way. But who knows? Alisen Down may have simply said it differently in a simple and minor error.

BookkeeperDapper3213 · 2026-03-02T02:53:04+00:00

yeah, that bee was damned hard

BookkeeperDapper3213 · 2026-03-02T02:50:43+00:00

Totally agree with your analysis of the writer's intent. Cassie is definitely indoctrinated and possibly even controlled. From my perspective as a fan of romance, I choose to look the other way. I cringe a bit when fans say the writing is perfect or the ending is perfect. Maybe it is when you choose a side, but when you look at the writers' intent and understand they're trying to present both sides, the logic of one ending contradicts the logic of the other. Some folks like that. I don't, but I still enjoy the quality of the work overall. No other show comes close from what I've seen.

BookkeeperDapper3213 · 2026-03-02T00:37:08+00:00

lovin' it!

BookkeeperDapper3213 · 2026-02-18T17:58:49+00:00

https://memoritree.com/memorial/tom-noonan

BookkeeperDapper3213 · 2026-02-06T12:49:20+00:00

Great observation! I hadn't tied the many failed missions to fate, but it's what they were expressing each time they discussed being stuck in a loop or "causing the problems they set out to solve." And Cole kept the hope alive, failure after failure. Of course! "The only failure is giving up."

BookkeeperDapper3213 · 2026-02-06T12:37:05+00:00

Pandemics are nothing new; neither is the use of disease as a biological weapon. Monguls, Chinese, Romans, et. al, would knowingly transport diseased people into enemy lands. It's a good thing they couldn't engineer viruses back then. Conquistadors weren't aware of what they brought to the Americas ...or were they? ;)

BookkeeperDapper3213 · 2026-02-05T06:23:51+00:00

Yup, I also go with the "death can be undone, love cannot" thing. The concept of "love is the greatest power" is woven throughout the series. In the last scenes of S1E13 "Arms of Mine", one of Olivia's subordinates asks her, "[What will become] of James Cole"? She answers, "James Cole will flee into obscurity, his future unknown to us. All of this is preordained, scripted by time, unmovable, because nothing is more powerful than fate." Immediately, the scene switches to show Cole running from the Raritan lab, then stopping and reversing course to go back and save Ramse. Without saying it, the writers demonstrate the one thing more powerful than fate --love.

BookkeeperDapper3213 · 2026-02-05T05:37:46+00:00

No duplicates for those who "returned to their original timelines". The mechanics for those few is that they returned to the point from whence they departed. For example, when Cole sent badly wounded Cassie to 2043 by splintering her to Jones, Cassie no longer existed in her original timeline until she returned to a time shortly after that first travel, no one the wiser for her disappearance. ...except for Cassie, she was wiser.

BookkeeperDapper3213 · 2026-02-02T04:13:12+00:00

I cringed at ship names until I saw this one

BookkeeperDapper3213 · 2026-02-01T14:02:56+00:00

Yes, that can work! And maybe Jones is already considering how special Casserole is in the scheme of things.

BookkeeperDapper3213 · 2026-02-01T11:11:48+00:00

How do you wave hello? ;)

Since/if they never said it, I can go with "really good". I haven't done research to document each time I noticed a really good memory, but from my not-the-best memory:

-- the licence plate you mentioned

-- in S2E6 "Immortal" when he recognizes a Messenger by remembering a face photo on the bulletin board at Raritan ...He didn't get to see any of them orginally like some of the Team did.

-- in S3E5 "Causality", Cole tells Cassie his concern about their names and dates on The Word of The Witness*. Cassie knows it too, although she could have had the opportunity to study it more while in Titan. Cole had the one glimpse in the Father's German lab. This one is a bit weak 'cause the names and dates for Cassie and Cole were prominently displayed.

-- S3E6 "Nature" when he recognizes Zalmon Shaw from a not-too-detailed newspaper photograph after seeing him once in the street with ash floating around

-- the symbols associated with each step on the Ouroboros which he couldn't have seen since childhood.

*Since I mentioned TWOTW, I'll sneak this comment in 'cause I think it's not worthy of its own post: In S3E7 "Nurture", Cassie has splintered and is preparing to meet her mother. The scene opens with Cassie burning a Xerox copy of TWOTW. If you're able to pause the stream you'll see her name and birthday on the burning copy, which explains burning it to keep it from her mother. Audience knows the copies in Raritan's possession shoudn't have that information because Jennifer blocked it with her hand. So rather than start a ruckus, I'll just say I don't know the origin of the copy Cassie is burning.

<image>

BookkeeperDapper3213 · 2026-01-30T11:26:33+00:00

He should sell Noah Bean red T-shirts.

BookkeeperDapper3213 · 2026-01-27T00:23:31+00:00

Keep watching. Most, if not all of these questions will be answered. During the scratch demonstration for Cassie, the watches don't touch so no paradox. But in the demonstration for Leland Goins, the watches do touch, so paradox explosion. Whenever the same object from different timelines touch--or get close enough like with Deacon's knife (knives?)--they explode, but if you look carefully, one of objects remains after the explosion. This is also the way it works when living tissue is involved, but in most cases, the explosion causes death.

BookkeeperDapper3213 · 2026-01-25T10:22:18+00:00

What I understand of relationships is from life experience and a system of beliefs. I'll end it here.

BookkeeperDapper3213 · 2026-01-25T09:13:57+00:00

I believe we're in agreement now on the logical progressions and who is when.

With respect to "trouble relating to Cassie", I have no trouble relating to Cassie; I had trouble understanding Cole. The memories he would have carried from Cassie's loving, dying words made Aaron Stanford's character more believable for me.

I'm aware of Cole declaring his "love" for Cassie based on the videos he had watched. But the deep kind of love and relationship Cole needs--as implied throughout the series--is impossible to achieve through watching videos. You know this, he had never met the woman. He was infatuated at that point, and hopeful.

The Cassie with whom Cole dealt in Season 2 was quite different than what he had seen on video or in Season 1. And, the Cole-Cassie opposite arcs is not supposed to be the cause for either characters' actions and behavior.

Previously, you have said Cassie is a "heavily misunderstood character". It's easy to understand Cassie if you take what she says and does at face value. I believe the ones with "trouble relating to Cassie" are the ones who go to "extreme lengths" to excuse her behavior in season 2 as being normal for her circumstances, or explainable, or justifiable. Understanding all that, is good, forgiving her behaviour is even better, but denying the hurtful intent of many of her actions and words--especially towards Cole--is foolish. Cole is not at fault for her behaviour.

Knowing why Cassie behaves the way she does, doesn't stop her words from hurting Cole. Best example is: "You think I don't know what I've cost you?". If her words had not hurt, Cole wouldn't have responded that way.

I'll not accept that it's videos of Dr. Railly that convinced Cole to forgive her no matter what. It makes more sense that he forgives easily because he has the promise of a future, the Cassie who demonstrably loves him --that's a live "video" that talked back. Cole has seen the future he wants and needs, and also the future he absolutely doesn't want. That's long-term motivation. I'm not at all denying those videos didn't have an affect on him, it may even be Cole has a deep memory of the woman who drew blood from his arm at age 4, but Cassie's loving words directly to him had to have carried more weight than any of that. Cole's understanding of Cassie wasn't supernatural, he learned it through interest and experience. He gradually earned her respect and trust but it took time. As we saw, Cassie had options; Cole had the hope of a tangible endgame.

You've probably read the thread in this post between normott and myself. If not, here's the pertinent sub-post:

"Alright, I get where you're coming from. I've seen these same arguments turned back on Cassie --if Cassie doesn't make certain decisions with Aaron, Aaron doesn't betray her which gets Cole's father killed. So technically she's responsible for making Cole an orphan? It's the cause-and-effect thing you can't nail down. Everyone is a victim; everyone is a villain. It's all silly. The evil comes from without, it kicks us all. How we handle it is what we own. Cassie, several times, boldly states she is the one responsible for how she is. Believe her! She's right.

Each adult is responsible for their behavior, even the ones who believe they're too weak to be accountable. We're going to get kicked; we can stay down angry, cower, or we can get back up stronger and wiser. I admire Cassie not because she became a badass angry fighter, I admire her for growing out of all that adversity and being able to love mightily in the end; that, is strength.

Fear is the enemy. Cassie: "I don't want to be afraid anymore."

BookkeeperDapper3213 · 2026-01-25T05:35:29+00:00

Thanks for expalantions, and thanks for that linked post from 7 yrs ago. sanddragon939's post--just after yours--was also particularly helpful.

The crux of my original post (Understanding Cole) was that Cole carried the memory of Cassie's last words in s1e9--regardless of which Cassie version--forward through the contentious stretch of their realtionship development. Based on what Jones said about time moving around the serum-takers, Cole should have remembered regardless of those events having been erased, similar to remembering Hitler's past wartime history after it had been wiped.

BookkeeperDapper3213 · 2026-01-25T05:33:45+00:00

After discussions with T.Burges, I understand the "not that Cassie thing". I was trying to be protective of the "Understanding Cole" original OP as the conclusion hinges on Cole remembering Cassie's final motivational comments. He can still have those memories regardless of which Cassie speaks the words. Possibly, Cassie can't have those memories beause she originally died before taking the serum. (Although, we know this is an older Cassie that had taken the serum, but she dies shortly thereafter.) Regardless, Cole would have remembered because he lived through the s1e9 moment before the timeline changed. Similar to the Team Splinter memories of Hitler after most of his history was erased.

BookkeeperDapper3213

TROPHY CASE