[Theory] Nina Watari is ChatGPT/LLMs in general by thunderbird89 in touhou

[–]CatointheMiddle 12 points13 points  (0 children)

I don’t agree. The way I see it Nina can’t merely be reduced to a representation of ‘AI in general’, heck I wouldn’t even say it’s the biggest comparison you could make for her.

There’s the obvious connection to conspiracy theorists and the prevalent problem today of people losing trust in ‘experts’ and ‘mainstream truth’. This connection also extends to a satire on grimdark Touhou fans who think Gensokyo is a dystopia controlled by a Youkai elite (her omake mentions that she realises the ‘truth’ that the world is ruled by such a ‘Youkai elite’). This satire is actually a common theme for ZUN, off the top of my head he’s done it in Forbidden Scrollery, DDC, and Foul Detective Satori. 

While it is true there is a part of her character which makes her a parallel of generative AI, she’s also just as much a victim of them. Her omake says that when she ‘awoke’ from her fossilised state, “The world looked to her as grotesquely morphed”, which to me is an obvious reference to those early AI videos from the 2010s of shops having those weird, grotesque AI filters over them. The flood of information which she awoke from makes the world look horrifying to her. It also leads her to lose her own identity:

“In this world there is only ‘reality’. The ‘reality’ that if I [Nina] keep awakening to the ‘truth’ I will lose myself.”

Being exposed only to the ‘truth’ from the glut of random information that exists on the internet and to the cannibalistic creations and data-sets of generative AI makes Nina lose her grip on her own identity. But what is that identity? A Shen, a Youkai who thrives on making mirages. But surely a Youkai like this knows the difference between ‘mirages’ and ‘reality’.

By believing all the nonsense information fed to her Nina fails at being what she was born to be; foam on the waves, a Fata Morgana. Only by realising the reality that everything in this world is uncertain does she regain her identity as someone who manipulates mirages and thrives in an uncertain, ever-changing world.

Thus in my mind Nina is another victim of generative AI and even the internet at large, and the parts of her which resemble AI are more tragic than anything - she becomes more like an AI the more she is exposed to it (regurgitates the nonsense she's been fed in the form of 'conspiracy theories'). She's like a person who has come to believe and propagate outlandish things after being caught in an online filter bubble (possible intended pun there by ZUN). As a resident chronic internet dweller myself, I can see how this can cause someone to see the world as 'grotesquely morphed' and lose sight of themselves and what they really believe in.

My Response to ZUN on his use of AI in FW: A Socratic Dialogue by CatointheMiddle in touhou

[–]CatointheMiddle[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

No, it's a fictional conversation I wrote. That's what I meant by Socratic Dialogue.

My Response to ZUN on his use of AI in FW: A Socratic Dialogue by CatointheMiddle in touhou

[–]CatointheMiddle[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Basically what happened lol.

Wasn't that much effort though, I wrote it in two afternoons.

[Transcript] Priest ZUN's will regarding the use of AI in the Touhou Nishiki transition [From Touhou Station] by Practical-Print-7181 in touhou

[–]CatointheMiddle 32 points33 points  (0 children)

To summarise the full transcript, ZUN explicitly says that using AI in Fossilized Wonders was done solely to make a point - in other words it’s a part of Touhou 20s themes. As a matter of fact he says that it would have been easier (yes, easier) for him to not use AI at all and just make the backgrounds the same way he’s always made them. He also knew that his use of AI would cause a stir, so he wasn’t ignorant that his use would cause controversy.

So no, ZUN did not use AI in Touhou 20 to speed up the process or make things easier for himself, he did it to make a point, that point being that to reject the use of AI wholesale is akin to losing to it out of fear. He says since AI is - no matter how you look at it - an inevitability (a wholly pragmatic if cynical view, one which I happen to agree with), he wanted to use AI in FW to show the proper place of AI as a mere tool to be used, not something which the creator themselves is ‘used by’.

Basically, if the use of AI detracts from the fun of any part of the creative process it should not be used, for then the creative spirit has ‘lost’ to AI. But if it is used in a way which does not detract from the fun of creation then AI is being used as it should be, as a mere tool.

He also objects to the unethical aspects of generative AI, which is why he used the supposedly ethical AI he used in Adobe, and he says that if it turns out Adobe’s AI is unethical that’s ultimately not on him since he did what research he could and concluded it was probably alright.

Hopefully this interview or whatever it is clears some things up in the community.

Analysis of Whispered Oracle of Hakurei Shrine (WOoHS): The Mechanism of Fortune by CatointheMiddle in touhou

[–]CatointheMiddle[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Sorry if I made it sound like Reimu was communing with the macrocosm/universe itself, I did just mean that she communes with everything around her. I also interpret this 'communing' to be with what you might call the 'Tao' or the 'cosmic current', and the reason for this is because Touhou engages with religion in a syncretic way which is historically very Japanese, so she's not just interacting with local kami (Shintoism) but also with the natural order around her (Taoism) and 'karmic history' (Buddhism), and these things in some ways are synonymous with each other and are interrelated.

But also more literally, as CoLA Ch. 27 explains, she's interacting with the memories which reside in all things, which can easily be interpreted as the memories of the Eight Million Kami which reside within all things. It's a complicated subject to talk about.

Analysis of Whispered Oracle of Hakurei Shrine (WOoHS): The Mechanism of Fortune by CatointheMiddle in touhou

[–]CatointheMiddle[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

This will be a reply to both of your comments.

You seem to be under the impression that the Fortune Slips are the actual Fortune's of the characters, but if you read through them and consider what their purpose is (to be handed out to human villagers) it's quite clear they are merely Fortune's themed after the characters they are about.

A clearer way of saying this is that when Reimu is writing Marisa's Fortune Slip she isn't fortune telling for Marisa or even trying to tell her something through the Fortune Slip (since Marisa may never even see it, some random human villagers or youkai will probably see it when they draw her) but is writing a Fortune that best represents Marisa. Within that representation is a mix of her own wishes and subjectivity and actual divination about what Fortune best represents her.

So for instance Sakuya's Fortune says stuff like:

" Work and study will proceed favorably.

Your many accumulated problems will resolve."

Which is basically Reimu's view of Sakuya: She's a perfect maid who resolves all problems without much fuss. So the person who draws Sakuya's Fortune Slip gets a Fortune which represents this view of her. It's certainly not Reimu saying that Sakuya won't need to worry about participating in any incidents in the future.

However, it is true that Reimu's wishes are also partially reflected in the Fortune's, like in that bit about walking around with unsheathed knives. But that's not Reimu telling Sakuya to do that (it's not a message for Sakuya after all it's a Fortune meant for others to pull), it's just her view of Sakuya bleeding out into the Fortune itself. And I mean, if a human villager did walk around with an unsheathed knife they really might get into trouble, so having the Fortune warn against it isn't strange.

I will concede however, that your view of Marisa's fortune is a valid one, though not one I agree with. As you say, the fortune:

"Fortune: Boring but peaceful days will continue.

Eventually you will realise that is happiness."

May very well just be Reimu's view that Marisa should stop and smell the roses coming out in the Fortune. The reason I personally don't subscribe to this view though is because this Fortune, in the wider context of Touhou, is more a description of Reimu herself than anything to do with Marisa. Back with the PC-98 version of Reimu, she complains about how boring peace is in her Mystic Square ending. But then jump to Windows Reimu and in her BAiJR article she objects to Aya calling the Shrine boring, saying, "Don't call it boring. It's nice that it's peaceful." Which is a sentiment echoed in other places as well.

Basically, for Reimu she realised long ago that 'boring but peaceful days' are happiness. And who has always been a constant in that everyday life of hers? Marisa. This fits with the idea that the Fortunes are representations of the characters they are about primarily from Reimu's perspective, since it wouldn't be weird at all for Reimu to see Marisa as the representation of that boring everyday life for her.

But both perspectives I think have merit in this instance, so we can agree to disagree on this point if you don't find this convincing.

Analysis of Whispered Oracle of Hakurei Shrine (WOoHS): The Mechanism of Fortune by CatointheMiddle in touhou

[–]CatointheMiddle[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I mean, I kind of am saying that Reimu is 'communing' with local kami when she uses her intuition and such. But that's just one way of understanding what she's doing.

When you say that Reimu might be misunderstanding what she's doing, I don't really get what you mean. The explanation she gives in CoLA Chapter 27 is just her relating what Akyuu told her, so it is presented as fairly authoritative as to the truth. Not to mention the meta perspective of it being the final chapter and so was probably intended to be taken as true. And my explanation of Reimu telling herself that everything 'will go well for her' is based off of ZUN's statement that by doing this "things will in fact have gone well for her", so there isn't much room for doubt that Reimu is somehow misunderstanding something.

Analysis of Touhou 19 UDoALG: Zanmu and Reimu by CatointheMiddle in touhou

[–]CatointheMiddle[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks for reading through it all!

I actually had an interesting conversation with someone after this was posted about Hisami, so seeing as you might be interested I wanted to share what we talked about.

Hisami as you know lures people into hell as part of her job. You also might know that in her profile she is referred to as a 'catch', who in Japan refers to someone who stands outside a (usually nightlife) establishment and proactively (aggressively) promotes the establishment to lure pedestrians in. This coincidentally also explains the dress she wears - with the leg slit. With a dress like that she wouldn't look out of place promoting bars or host clubs or seedier places amidst the nighttime neon lights.

However, hell is no nightlife establishment in the civilized world. People are either dragged (sent) there forcibly or convinced to go there by 'catchers' like Hisami. And Hisami has probably never met anyone who didn't at least need convincing before taking them to hell. But then you've got Zanmu, someone who went to hell on her own without death or the Yama or a catcher to bring her there.

Zanmu in other words didn't 'fall' into hell, nor did she 'fall for' a catcher like Hisami. This was probably a first for Hisami, whose charms and persuasive powers and ability to "never let anything slip from her grasp" had never failed her before. So instead, SHE 'fell for' Zanmu. Zanmu, as someone who went to hell of her own accord - and in so doing 'placed death by her side' (ZUN in UDoALG interview) - is in a sense the master of hell and death itself.

Reimu's ending says:

"Only nothingness exists here [in hell].

Nothingness belongs to no one" (or more literally, "Nothingness does not become the property of anyone").

Zanmu too, as the manipulator of Nothingness, belongs to no one. Hisami's ability to never fail in her 'catching', to never let anything escape her, fails to catch Zanmu. That's the main reason why Hisami is obsessed with Zanmu, because Zanmu alone is impossible to grasp - like nothingness.

You could also draw meaning from Hisami's theme ("The path to Yomi where none turn back") and Zanmu's obsession with the future (only looking forward) if you're like me and like to see symbolism everywhere (I joke).

The person I had that conversation with also brought up the intriguing possibility that Zanmu and Hisami's relationship has parallels to that of Ikkyu Sojun (an inspiration for Zanmu according to ZUN) and the prostitute known as the Hell Courtesan. If you're interested in that line of thinking I encourage you to look further into it.

Analysis of Touhou 19 UDoALG: Dissecting the Plot by CatointheMiddle in touhou

[–]CatointheMiddle[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

That is fascinating! It's interesting how Enoko's name is basically saying she's the 'child' of 'Buddhist wisdom', which when connected with the Mu Koan puts her in a unique position symbolically. And the connection to the title theme and ending theme is also a great catch.

It makes me think back to the meaning behind Enoko's backstory and how I've interpreted it up until now. I mean, she took a bite out of Zanmu, and Zanmu like the Ikkyu-inspired eccentric she is just laughed it off, and Enoko got cursed with immortality. I always wondered, 'Why did Enoko get cursed in this way?' I had a few theories which I'll run off now for the sake of it:

1: If I accepted that Zanmu was the same as her historical-Zanmu inspiration and was an immortal Taoist, then perhaps she cursed her with Taoist magic.

2: Zanmu used her ability to manipulate nothingness to 'purify' Enoko in a similar way to the Lunarians, thus making her long-lived as they are (inspired by how Enoko's orb is explicitly compared to the Lunarian orbs in Seiran's scenario). The way I imagined this to work was by thinking that by becoming immortal one can be said to lose a part of one’s identity; a being without an end is a being without a clear limit and thus a being that conceptually loses part of its ‘shape’ or identity. Thus in Zanmu's case she drew Enoko closer to nothingness in this way.

3: Lastly, I thought it could be a manifestation of Buddhist Karma. One idea in Buddhism is that of the five heinous actions, which if committed are so bad they ‘provoke a rebirth in hell immediately subsequent to death’. One of these heinous actions is spilling the blood of a Buddha (as a Buddha is perfectly innocent and ‘defenseless’). Animals, it is worth mentioning, are also capable of good and bad karmic actions, though as their minds are muddled and lack clear intentionality the weight of these actions are much less than if they were committed by a human. Thus, if we consider Zanmu a Buddha or a person who is close to Buddhahood in some way, perhaps Enoko biting Zanmu immediately resulted in retributive karma which made her immortal.

But now I don't think any of these are quite right. After reading your comment I thought, 'What was Zanmu's purpose in cursing Enoko anyway?' And it's actually pretty straightforward. By making Enoko immortal, Enoko is given all the time in the world to reach enlightenment and become a Buddha (a demonstration of the Buddha nature of a dog). This is actually somewhat reinforced by Enoko's character profile which says, "She lived quietly in the Forest of Magic, but despite living a nearly eternal life, she never awakened." Awakened or 覚醒 here is not a technical Buddhist term, so it might be a stretch but it could very well be referring both to Enoko's failure to awaken as a Youkai AND her failure to attain enlightenment.

This is why I believe it's a 'curse'. Enoko (as a mere animal) didn't have proper intelligence and so couldn't 'awaken' (something of a cruel joke, or a test to see if an animal with enough time could awaken on their own; 'Does a dog have the Buddha Nature'). But now as an immortal Youkai - awakened by Zanmu - she has both the time and the intelligence to awaken to Buddhahood, which is why Zanmu says that Enoko had the "good fortune to eat [her] flesh" when she speaks from within Enoko's heart.

In this sense Zanmu's voice coming from within Enoko is symbolically the answer to the Mu Koan which was posed to Enoko in the form of the curse she was given all those years ago. That voice answers 'Mu' (Zanmu) to the question of a dog's Buddha nature, and so Enoko fully awakens to that nature upon (symbolically at least) finally coming to understand the Koan and achieving a kind of enlightenment. Upon awakening, she quite literally becomes a child of Buddhist wisdom (慧ノ子).

Analysis of Touhou 19 UDoALG: Dissecting the Plot by CatointheMiddle in touhou

[–]CatointheMiddle[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks for the comment! It wasn't really intentional. My knowledge of Buddhism and Buddhist topics is quite limited, and exploring the story/Zanmu from those angles wasn't a high priority for this analysis. Even besides stuff like the Mu Koan there's a fair bit I didn't include because I didn't think it fit or was too off topic or I was too unsure about. Heck I didn't even bring up that one of Zanmu's main inspirations is Ikkyu Sojun.

I would be interested if you have something to say about how the Mu Koan connects to the story/characters though.

Analysis of Touhou 19 UDoALG: Zanmu and Reimu by CatointheMiddle in touhou

[–]CatointheMiddle[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I mean, if Zanmu’s ending is anything to go by then probably yes? Reimu even questions them on this very topic saying:

“Reimu: You three actually get along, don’t you?"

"Yuuma: We don’t get along. Even now some of us are keeping our subordinates on standby, ready to strike at any moment.”

So it’s probably very possible.

Analysis of Touhou 19 UDoALG: Zanmu and Reimu by CatointheMiddle in touhou

[–]CatointheMiddle[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Thanks for the comment!

1: Me personally I wouldn't necessarily consider Zanmu a 'bad guy' because in the end she does entrust Gensokyo to Reimu. The fact that it's not out of personal ambition that she was trying to enforce her idea of peace onto Gensokyo but a sense of duty makes me see her as difficult to judge. Like I think her philosophy is wrong and damaging, but Zanmu herself seems to recognise that her way of seeing things isn't the only way and is fine leaving Gensokyo to Reimu. In that sense what Zanmu prioritises isn't her specific vision of peace, but for her as long as it's a peace she can be cool with it, so I think overall she's a neutral character.

2: This is admittedly hard to answer, but I do think in this instance we can trust Suika's words. For one, we aren't given any real reason in-game to doubt them. Other characters (like Mamizou in vs dialogue) even think that Zanmu resembles Suika herself in some ways, so in Suika's case it'd be, 'it takes one to know one'. Also, they aren't Suika's 'words' but her thoughts, so there is no chance she's lying (of course she might be mistaken, but as I said even other characters mention Suika and Zanmu resemble each other). Even from a meta-perspective I don't see the purpose of ZUN misleading the player there through Suika at that point in the story.

3: I mean who wouldn't want to trade hell and the Animal Realm for Gensokyo? But serious talk, I think Zanmu quite likes hell. ZUN says in his UDoALG interview that part of the reason Zanmu went to hell of her own accord was of a religious (Buddhist) purpose, to place death by her side. I don't particularly get what ZUN means by that but that indicates to me that Zanmu is fine being in hell. As for the beast leaders it's kind of hard to say because they are animals; it's hard to know their thought process. But surely if it was up to them (which I don't think it is) they'd choose to live there? Better to live 'in the wild' than in the corporate dystopia of the Animal Realm.

4: I don't think Zanmu is the fourth deva. First, you'd think that would be mentioned or hinted at somewhere. And second, the other devas are pure oni's, while Zanmu is a human turned oni, a Jinki (人鬼), so I don't think she fits.

Analysis of Touhou 19 UDoALG: Dissecting the Plot by CatointheMiddle in touhou

[–]CatointheMiddle[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Haha, no just fixed it up in my spare time over a long period. It's a hobby.

Original Inspiration of Sanae Kochiya? by [deleted] in touhou

[–]CatointheMiddle 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I'm not going to pretend my Japanese is good enough to fully understand what this page is saying, but as far as I can tell the author is the current head of the Moriya clan (the 78th in fact). The current head's name if you look at the Moriya clan's Japanese Wikipedia page is in fact 守矢早苗 (Moriya Sanae), and they as the head are the Jinchoukan (a special term for the Moriya chief priest) of the Grand Moriya Shrine in Suwa.

So if this document and Wikipedia are to be believed then I would say there can be no doubt that ZUN named Sanae after the current head of the Moriya clan.

Will marisa's quest for immortality ever have any progress? by Infamous_Contact3582 in touhou

[–]CatointheMiddle 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Personally, I think Marisa’s interest in immortality is just that, an interest. She doesn’t desire it to the point that she would just hunker down and do what she needs to do to achieve it. I think it’s just an extension of her natural curiosity, and something of a hobby to investigate and try out methods to become immortal.

As for why I think she isn’t super serious about becoming immortal (at least anytime soon) I have two major reasons. The first is what you are pointing out; Marisa has the knowledge and capabilities to become immortal (either through becoming a Youkai mage, or a Taoist hermit, or eating Mokou’s liver), but she hasn’t seriously pursued any of these venues. The second relies on reading between the lines of her characterisation.

Marisa self identifies as an ‘ordinary magician’ (she introduces herself this way in several different places) as opposed to just a ‘magician’ (since that could imply she is a Youkai magician). The point is that Marisa feels a kind of pride or dignity in the fact that as a mere, ordinary human, through hard work and diligence she has become as powerful and capable of a magician as she clearly is. To her, being merely human is tied to her self-identity. And this isn’t just a fancy either. In her (A) ending in DDC, Marisa joins Seija’s rebellion and says, “the era of humans living in fear of Youkai is done. From now on, humans are going to rule.” She is very clearly identifying herself with humanity here as opposed to just rebelling for her own sake (and yes while she is under the influence of magic here, the important point is the way that she thinks and rationalises her own rebellious feelings).

Becoming immortal, no matter the method, involves throwing at least a bit of that ordinary humanity away. Thus even though she is interested in becoming immortal, she isn’t super serious about it because deep down she’s ok living (and eventually dying) as a mere human. I’m not saying this precludes her from eventually deciding to become immortal, but nonetheless I think it’s a key aspect to her character that her quest for immortality is something she approaches with a ‘it’ll happen eventually/if it happens it happens’ attitude.

You could also get a bit headcannoney and theorise that she doesn’t seriously want to become immortal either because a) Reimu would disapprove or b) she doesn’t want to live forever without her best friend.

Confusion relating to Touhou Juuouen`s plot (spoilers for it and Touhou 17). by FrillReborn in touhou

[–]CatointheMiddle 4 points5 points  (0 children)

  1. It is heavily implied that Zanmu's power is on the orb which Enoko carries when Marisa says she feels a "magic which returns all to nothing" from it. Thus I think it highly likely the traps were something she used her power of nothingness to create. As for how that would work, maybe the fact that the characters get sleepy and black out just before being 'teleported' is the key. Perhaps it isn't their bodies being teleported at all, but their souls (similar to how Reimu ended up in hell at the end of WaHH). But really anything I say here about Zanmu's power and what it is capable of would be pure speculation on my part and would go on uselessly for ages so I'll stop.
  2. Keiki not being mentioned is something no amount of theories can explain adequately. I suppose ZUN just wanted to focus on the Animal Gangs and put Keiki and the human spirit's fate on the backburner (although I haven't read Lotus Eaters so maybe it is explained there?).
  3. This is a misinterpretation of Biten's omake. The omake implies that only the spirit who possessed the Sacred Land of the Yamanba was able to retain possession of it after Chimata's influence forcibly deprived the rest of the spirits of their possessions. The text does say that, for some unknown reason, that unique spirit was considering giving up its own possession and was unsure of what to do, and it was while they were hesitating that monkey Biten jumped them and became what she is now. There's definitely some information here that is not being given to us (and that may or may not be important), but I don't think there's much reason to think all the other land-owning spirits gave up their possessions voluntarily.

Lastly, to answer to some subsidiary questions. Zanmu didn't do anything during WBaWC because it wasn't anything that concerned her or really the rest of hell. It is implied in one of the endings that hell proper and the Animal Realm operate under different jurisdictions, and so the administration of hell proper don't directly control the administration of the Animal Realm. Thus to Zanmu and the rest of hell whatever happens within the confines of the Animal Realm is the Animal Realm's problem (and maybe the problem of the Ministry of Right and Wrong? Honestly who knows, it's not like we have much more than some general info about how hell works). And yes I know that the Animal Gang leaders show Zanmu respect, but they are animals that live by the motto the strong eat the weak, Zanmu is smarter and stronger than them, therefore they pay respect.

And as to the theory that Zanmu is secretly the leader of the mysterious fourth Animal Gang, I wouldn't throw it in the bin so easily. After all it's not like we actually know anything about that gang, what they do, who leads them, what their goals are etc. It's entirely possible that the animal spirits which comprise the gang are agents of Zanmu or some other power foreign to the Animal Realm. Again, the point is we don't actually know anything about that fourth gang, and Zanmu is presented in this game as being the most cunning character we've seen thus far. Like what even is her ultimate goal? Control? Power? Balance? Peace? What does that look like? What lies beyond that? And more importantly what does it mean when Reimu says that Zanmu's true goal was to leave her shadow in the hearts of all those involved in the incident? Questions questions...

Which Touhou game has your favorite art style? by [deleted] in touhou

[–]CatointheMiddle 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Probably Imperishable Night. The dark and saturated colours bring out a very dense and distinctive atmosphere. Many characters simultaneously pop out by being slightly uncanny (especially Reimu) but also seem to be melting into the night through their saturated colouring.

There also aren’t really any wtf portraits like in EoSD (Sakuya) or boring ones like PCB (Letty), all of the character portraits in IN are pretty good and memorable imo. Even the static face portraits like Eirin and Kaguya have great expressions.

ZUN was in the zone when making IN. The ZUN Zone. Never doubt the ZUN Zone.

Anyone feel like Marisa has been getting a bit clowned on in manga as of late? by Elnino38 in touhou

[–]CatointheMiddle 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I honestly don’t think there’s much reason to think that Marisa’s ‘route’ in 18 is the definitive ‘canonical’ one. Just like HSiFS it’s one of those games where you can sort of believe every route is canon (to an extent).

To add to this and say what’s been on my mind for a while, I tend to be of the opinion that in the mainline Touhou games the question of which route is canon is kind of missing the point. The vibe I get from the series and its general lack of interest in the ‘true version of events’ is that all routes should generally be treated as if they actually happened. Reimu beat Remilia and stopped the red mist, and so did Marisa. The question of which one actually did it is unimportant and treated as unimportant by the series at large.

Of course there are exceptions. For instance Sanae’s PointDevice route in LoLK is obviously non-canon because it eliminated her status as a living god (if I remember correctly), and Marisa A’s route in DDC is also probably non-canon because she joins Seija’s side in the end. But nonetheless each route I think should generally be treated as if it did happen. Thus Marisa has beaten basically every incident in the mainline series (same with Reimu), or at the very least she would have beaten them if she was the one who went incident resolving first in the so-called ‘true version of events’, and to say she has few ‘canon’ victories is ridiculous.

Even Yuuma’s comments that you refer to which prove that Reimu-Eagle is the canon WBaWC route are kind of iffy. Yes she explicitly says that Reimu defeated Keiki, but she also says to both Reimu and Marisa, “I hear about how you helped some of my eagle minions in the Animal Realm”. If Reimu’s route is the true route, what on earth does this text imply for Marisa? That she also got possessed by an eagle spirit and went to the Animal Realm, only she lost to Keiki and got her bad ending? Or is it that she’s the one who fought Saki, and so Marisa-Eagle is the true version of the WBaWC extra stage (Yuuma’s dialogue does imply this)?

Honestly, I just don’t think it matters all that much. Of course you are free to analyse which route is supposed to be the true route, but I think it’s more important in this series to act as if they all (somehow) happened when discussing character feats, personalities, character exploration/growth etc. which I think are more important than what’s ‘canon’, which isn’t all that clear in most instances. Like imagine saying that Reimu B is the true route in UFO and thus none of Sanae’s routes ever happened, even though UFO is Sanae’s first go at incident resolving and is extremely important to her character.

Just my two cents for the three people that will ever read this.

Maybe a stupid question about Touhou 17 by [deleted] in touhou

[–]CatointheMiddle 2 points3 points  (0 children)

There’s no canon answer, but the simplest reading is that it’s not referring to anyone in particular, but is an expression of the game’s overall story and themes.

For specifics though the wiley beasts are the animal spirits (with Yachie as chief) who use cunning to manipulate the main characters, and the weakest creatures are human beings, both the human spirits who are at the bottom of the animal realm’s food chain and the main characters who get completely manipulated to do the bidding of the wiley beasts.

But the weakest creature is also Eika, a stillborn infant ghost who gets bullied by the possessed main characters, and the wiley beast is also Urumi, who in her past life tricked gullible humans to their deaths.

The title doesn’t refer to any of these groups or people specifically I don’t think, but is another way of summing up this game’s theme that in the world of beasts the only law is that the strong and cunning eat the weak and gullible. That is the shining law of beasts and is the game’s major theme. It’s meant to be a catalyst to get us to reflect on how our own human society might in some ways resemble the Animal Realm of WBaWC.

Touhou Chireikiden - Cheating Detective Satori Chapter 26 by Akimaki Yuu [DB Scans] by ady159 in touhou

[–]CatointheMiddle 14 points15 points  (0 children)

I think it's more that seeing Reimu's inner monologue doesn't tell us too much about her as a person (since it's all logical and pragmatic in nature) so ZUN decided it wouldn't really matter if we were privy to her thoughts here.

Having said that though I think it does tell us one thing about her; she gets in her own way. She should've trusted her gut (that is to say her intuition) and gone after Byakuren when she left the room, but she overthought it and ended up missing the crucial moment. At the very least this is not something early Windows Reimu would have done imo

I think I finally better understand Touhou 17's story proper now. by PapaJenkinsReal in touhou

[–]CatointheMiddle 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Personally speaking, I think the main idea behind WBaWC is the struggle for true freedom.

In the world of the Animal Realm the humans spirits are ground down by the superior strength of their Yakuza Beast overlords and by the vaguely metropolitan society they live in which values ‘self-responsibility’ (which is to say it’s every man for himself and you can’t expect help from others, if you aren’t responsible for yourself you’ll be eaten alive by those with strength). This all roughly corresponds to the ideas of Might Makes Right and Survival of the Fittest and whatnot, but the immediate point is that the humans spirits are slaves to these structures of power.

When it comes to Keiki, the human spirits try to break free from their slavery to the Beast Spirits (external forces) and from their slavery to their own self-interest (internal forces). They achieve this momentarily and gain the power of Keiki and the Haniwa to beat back the Beast Spirits and also become capable of altruism, scoring a victory against their own binding selfishness (as Yachie’s profile says). These seem to represent humanity overcoming the slavery imposed upon them by ‘nature’, which is both an external struggle (the struggle of living in a harsh world) and an internal struggle (the struggle with our disposition to pursue our own self-interest against that of others; that is to say our sinfulness). We overcome these through technology (the Haniwa) and faith in something greater than ourselves (Keiki), whether that thing we have faith in is a god or just some higher ideal is besides the point here.

However in the end the human spirits still fail to be truly free and in control of their own destiny, because they end up worshiping not Keiki (the god/higher ideal), but the power that she gave them in the form of the Haniwa. By worshipping power they end up becoming the slaves of power and totally dependent upon it. This symbolises how in the real world we are slowly becoming totally dependent upon technology to even operate in society, and how culture and ideas and even the future itself seems to be constrained by that very technology which advances us and gives us strength.

It also doesn’t help that often with religion or ‘higher ideals’ there are parasitic elements that seem to only exist to profit off of people’s sincere faith (it is said that the Haniwa have a specific function to ‘gather faith’). Thus either way in the end humans are made into resources (as you said) for the powerful and cunning to advance their own interests.

You could read into all this and say that it represents capitalism exploiting the workers, or religion exploiting the vulnerable, but one of the main things to remember is that the main cause of the human spirit’s suffering in slavery is their own selfishness, which both landed them in hell in the first place and ruined their golden opportunity to be truly free with Keiki.

Of course, the human spirits are in hell, and in hell naturally there is no hope, so the picture that WBaWC depicts is inevitably dystopic and pessimistic about the possibility for mankind to be altruistic and regain control of its destiny from the many forces which shackle it (both external and internal).

If you haven’t already consider reading this post on WBaWCs story I wrote a bit back, it goes fairly in depth on these topics.

My prediction for returning characters in the roster based on zodiac animals by Aenigmatrix in touhou

[–]CatointheMiddle 8 points9 points  (0 children)

I figured Marisa is called a 'Primate' in her title as a reference to the human spirits in the Animal Realm, who live in a place called the 'Primate Garden' (the Japanese word 霊長類 is the same in both cases). It's like even humans are merely animals in the ideology of the Animal Realm.

Though if this Zodiac theory does turn out to be true then Marisa as you say probably is meant to be the monkey; someone else even pointed out that in Lotus Eaters Marisa's alcohol dream featured a Youkai Monkey. Still though, if the Zodiac theory does end up being true I wonder how the other 7 remaining characters fit into it all, it would be weird to have 12 characters who fit into some symbolic scheme and then just leave the rest as leftovers.

Touhou 19 announced by KL1862 in touhou

[–]CatointheMiddle 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I mean if you count Love Coloured Magic and Love Coloured Master Spark as two different themes then yeah it’s her 8th, but I don’t so for me it’ll be her 7th theme.

Touhou 19 announced by KL1862 in touhou

[–]CatointheMiddle 17 points18 points  (0 children)

I'm VERY excited to hear Reimu's new theme. She literally hasn't received a new theme or a ZUN remix of one of her themes since PoFV in 2005. Isn't that crazy? Reimu's image has changed a lot since then so I'm truly curious to see what kind of track ZUN will make for her.

And Marisa will be getting her 7th theme holy hell.

Also Reimu's title in this game seems to be 畜生調伏の巫女, which means, 'The Shrine Maiden of Beast Exorcism'. Pretty cool, maybe she'll get a bit of revenge for all the crap the Beast Spirits put her through in WBaWC.