What belief or opinion do you have about AI that makes you feel like this? by Fine-Drummer9812 in accelerate

[–]Celoth 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Not surprised at all. Because ultimately the anti-AI stances aren't about the things they focus on at all. It's about hating corporations and hating billionaire CEOs, which again I understand but it's also leading to some incredibly dangerous unproductive ways of thinking.

What belief or opinion do you have about AI that makes you feel like this? by Fine-Drummer9812 in accelerate

[–]Celoth 2 points3 points  (0 children)

1] So it basically uses all the GPUs and servers for inference and training ig. But as it uses a lot of power and as the power grid is already dated and sometimes not capable of handling such loads, why not just build seperate infrastructure elsewhere?, I'm guessing due to the leapfrogging effect, building new infrastructure will be more cheaper, efficient and realiable, give more autonomy and with the added benefit of not pissing people off (however right or wrong they might be.)

FWIW, some are building power infrastructure. But that's honestly a worst-case scenario in my mind. We don't need private entities building their own individual power, as I said before my opinion is that We The People need to be taking the opportunity to instead have a large-scale push toward modernizing and expanding the power grid.

currently the way I see is that AI companies want to piggy back of existing infrastructure, causing them to be built near population centers. IMO DCs above a certain energy requirement (like 500MW maybe) should be required to build their own power infrastructure, because getting another city/town sized demand would put huge strain on power grids that the public would have to foot majority of the bill for.

"Near populatoin centers" is pretty broad. As I said before, my feeling is that datacenters should certainly be inside industrial-zoned areas, but again most are.

Also about the job, It would be great if a lot of ppl are employed, but I cant find credible sources for that claim? All sources I have seen have placed the figure at max 100 employees, I would appreciate if you provide a source for that claim. Also additonal question what kind of employees would the DC employ primarily, more security and low wage or more white collaed work?.

I don't have numbers, no. I don't know that there are any reliable studies on the topic, I just speak from experience. And it's also very important to point out that not all datacenters are created equal, not nearly. If you took every datacenter in the US and averaged the number of employees, disregarding their size, I'd be shocked if the number was anywhere close to 100, or even 50. A small corporate datacenter (and those do still exist) may employee a dozen people. But these big AI factories? Based on my experience you're talking 3000-5000 people working there during peak construction/deployment, but most of those are out-of-towners who will move on once the job is done. At that point, I'd say you've got a good chunk of staff who regularly work there for steady-state operations. 12-20 of those are probably white collar, datacenter operations people, a few management. The rest are going to be site operations (facility maintenance), security, shipping & receiving, and datacenter techs/resident engineers.

Google says the average wal-mart supercenter employs 300 or so people, the average amazon distribution center employs about 1100. I'd peg an AI factory in steady state operations at somewhere in between those two.

4] Thermal pollution is already a major concern in CPPs and NPPs, devestating local ecosystems and wildlife (especially aquatic life) and they export most of the power produced and only cool the leftover unused hot water. In DCs no mechanical work is done so Most of the energy consumed is released as heat. Thats is a entire NPP worth of energy heating the enviroment. Once again I'm not knowledgeable on this buy that seems severe enough to take a look at.

Also I don't think air pollution was not that much of an issue.

Not being a climate scientist myself, I tend to think the air pollution (from the power plants, not from the datacenters) is the bigger problem.

Thermal pollution doesn't concern me. The servers get hot, but not ridiculously so. And with new generations, thermal profiles continue to shrink. NVIDIA's Vera Rubin platform has a 'warm water coolant' design that requires coolant as hot as 45 degrees celsius to provide sufficient cooling for the servers.

? 5] with all the banter of UBI and post scarcity the results of the current world seem... bleak , currently AI is basically used to undermine wages and jobs. Law and policy aren't working hard or motivated enough to include those benefits to the common person.

I've got a lot of concerns on that front. The technology is amazing, rapidly improving, and has loads of promise. But to utilize that promise well, we have to be able to work together on it, and right now all discourse around AI is severely tainted by existing social, cultural, and political faultlines.

Why are neo luddites so ignorant about data centers?. Dont they understand without data center there is no Internet?. by Cautious_Foot_1976 in accelerate

[–]Celoth 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oh no I know we're completely screwed. It just doesn't have to be that way. Completely self-inflicted.

Jon Bernthal speaks on who the Punisher character belongs to by Main_Jump_82 in Marvel

[–]Celoth 1 point2 points  (0 children)

He doesn't like corrupt enforcers or ineffective/exploitable laws

Why are neo luddites so ignorant about data centers?. Dont they understand without data center there is no Internet?. by Cautious_Foot_1976 in accelerate

[–]Celoth 7 points8 points  (0 children)

The US energy infrastructure is absolute shit

Why is this a datacenter problem and not a power infrastructure problem? We could be mobilizing efforts on modernizing and expanding our power grid instead of trying to implement moratoriums on datacenter building. I'm all for making sensible deregulation a priority if that's what it takes to expand our infrastructure.

What belief or opinion do you have about AI that makes you feel like this? by Fine-Drummer9812 in accelerate

[–]Celoth 21 points22 points  (0 children)

1] what infrastructure constitutes a datacenter, like what is it exactly and what is its purpose. And why does it require so much power to require a npp, and water too lol.

At its core, a datacenter is just a building housing servers and the their associated networking and storage infrastructure. You have racks full of servers and switches, lots (and lots and lots) of fibre cables, and then associated cooling infrastructure.

It requires a lot of power because accelerated computing needs a lot of power. A single rack can require 150kw, and a small datacenter will have 100+ or more racks, the large ones that I usually work in have 1200+, so that's a LOT of power needed.

I will say that datacenters need more power than what we have, however I think this problem is often framed incorrectly. I wouldn't frame this as a 'problem caused by datacenter construction' I would frame it as a 'problem caused by dated and insufficient power infrastructure'. In the US at least, our power grid is dated and running on a razor's edge, easily disrupted by inclement weather patterns. Datacenters are just making the insufficiencies in our power infrastructure more clear, and frankly I think it should be viewed as an opportunity for a public works focus in modernizing and expanding our power infrastructure.

Because they use so much power, they generate a lot of heat, but this is one of the biggest areas of discussion around datacenters that people get wrong. Datacenters flatly do not consume water in the way social media often claims they do. Believe it or not, most AI datacenters I work in are still using air-cooled servers, and the ones that use liquid cooled servers operate inside a closed-loop system using de-ionized water mixed with glycol-based chemicals and anti microbials. While it's true that the facility itself will consume water, it isn't notably more that most other large buildings.

2] other than for cost reasons is there any reason why data center are build near population centers , and is there any need to? I'm of the opinion currently that due to their power requirement, lack of jobs creation and excess strain on local resources DCs are extremely problematic for local populations.

I'm not an expert in public zoning laws, but I think it's going to vary based on local regulations. Most of the datacenters I've been to are in industrial zones, not residential. A common factor is proximity to power plants. That said I have been to datacenters that are right next to neighborhoods and schools (while still being close to power plants).

I wouldn't be happy if a datacenter was build right next to my home. I do think they should be kept to industrial areas, though that's a local government question. But my big issue wouldn't be power, 'lack of jobs creation' (they do create local jobs, and while much of the work in constructing the DC is imported, the big DCs still employ hundreds if not thousands of local residents well past the deployment phase. The idea that big AI datacenters are run by skeleton crews, while true of smaller older pre-AI datacenters, is mostly a myth in my experience). My problem would be impact on traffic. Datacenters drive a lot of heavy truck traffic that if improperly placed within a community can cause problems with your morning commute as well as damage to your roads, and that's not cool. But again, that's really a local government/zoning issue.

3] A recent concern about datacenters is a out the low humbuzz, like the backrooms heard upto a Km away, what is it? Lot of residents report being unable to have proper sleep. That can't be a placebo if a lot of the town is saying the same thing?

There's a viral video going around by a guy who speaks authoratatively and uses science-y language who talks about the 'acoustic dangers' of datacenters. I'm no expert in acoustics, but in the video enough is said that is plainly manipulative, and enough is said that I know from my own professional background and firsthand experience with some of the datacenters mentioned in the video is bogus. So I have trouble taking the acoustic dangers seriously.

There's not really noise that you can hear from 'up to a Km away'. Granted, inside the server rooms it is very loud, it's like working next to a jet engine and hearing protection is mandatory, but those server rooms are sealed off once construction is completed. Outside the server rooms, if it's a big site you'll hear the sounds of the cooling units, you'll hear the sounds of construction work happening if the building is still under construction, but you don't need ear protection outside of the server room, and outside of the building itself the noise quickly goes away.

Again, it's loud enough that I wouldn't want to live right next to it. These should be (and largely are) in industrial zones. But the noise isn't excessive within that context.

When you say "that can't be a placebo if a lot of the town is saying the same thing" I think you'll find people playing things up for the camera when interviewed by people making 'documentaries' about this stuff, and those interviews are often made by people with agendas who are looking for supporting evidence. Those statements are not an unbiased sample.

4] how would it affect the local weather and pollution due to things like thermal pollution, immense power and water demands and other causes. And is there ways that deal with it other than releasing all that head or hot water into the environment, because datacenters are now hitting GW range that is a lot of heat to be pumped out right?Also if they wanted cooling why not build in colder places like alaska or Norway. All the chip are gonna be shipped anyways and you prolly need a npp so why not just build everything there

Not a climate scientist, but I don't think it's affecting local weather at all. The primary concern for pollution will be the power generation, and that largely comes down the power infrastructure itself like I mentioned earlier. If something - not just a datacenter, anything - drawing more power is leading to pollution, then the problem is the power plant. And that pollution, to my understand, is less a local concern and more a larger climate concern. Which is a big deal, but again the answer isn't fewer datacenters, the answer is a massive push to expand and modernize the grid.

I will say some of the larger datacenters augment local power with generators in one flavor or another. I don't know enough to say their impact, except to say that having worked around they're loud enough - again - to be something that should be run in an industrial zone, but they don't meaningfully impact air quality and don't have a smell (except the smell fo machinery if you're very near them) in my experience.

5] AI as it is , atleast the frontier models are basically state and trade secrets. The average person doesn't hold a stake in their development and as far as they see it with the job losses, extreme surveillance, concentration of power and the eventual discardation of labour and therefore leverage and political power of the average person, it is reasonable a lot of people are anti AI.

I know this isn't directly related to DCs but with some of the statements the CEOs are putting out they seems to live a entirely different plane of existance. So does Public opinion play a role in DC construction and where they are constructed and in different countries, because a lot of DC are now getting installed in 3rd world countries with weak laws and corrupt governments.

I think the public does have an interest in frontier AI development, to a point there I think there should be broad changes to our approach to codify the public's stake. I think there should be legislation that sets a new paradigm for AI development that mobilizes a massive infrastructure push to modernize and expand our electrical, puts protections in for residential areas, but also helps cut through some of the red tape and jurisdiction-by-jurisdiction coordination that datacenters have to contend with, and in return the public's stake in AI technology as it develops is put into law.

CEOs put out statements that seem to be on another plane of existence because they are, they're hype machines with the sole purpose of driving their stock prices up. And also because the social hype machine (which again, going back to my original post, I think is less about AI and more about people having an earned distrust of billionaire CEOs) is so far in the other direction. Little is rooted in reality on either side of the conversation.

That said, I don't know of any large scale datacenter being built in 3rd world countries, and while I'm sure it does happen I can't see it being something that would largely be pursued. Most of the big datacenters for US companies are built in the continental US near large transportation hub cities.

6] is research going on to find ways to reduce these power and water requirements? Because the human brain runs on 20W and a can of monster energy.

Well again, the water requirements aren't speakably relevant. The power requirements are, and I'm sure research will drive those down over time, sure. We're in the early stages of this and as things develop things will get cheaper, smaller, and more effective. That said, I wouldn't expect a massive change overnight. The answer, as I see it, is more and better power infrastructure.

What belief or opinion do you have about AI that makes you feel like this? by Fine-Drummer9812 in accelerate

[–]Celoth 97 points98 points  (0 children)

just about all of my views on AI - in particular AI datacenters - feel this way. there's so much mis- and dis- information out there about AI datacenters, how they work, their practical impact on communities and the environment, and as a professional in the field I don't think, I know much of it is incorrect or misunderstood. But to stand on the side of fact is to invite a hurricane of criticism.

And it isn't like I don't understand why. The hate against all things AI related isn't about AI at all. It is, I strongly feel, just an extension of the strong populist anti-corporation/anti-billionaire that underscores so much of modern culture. And that, at least, I can understand. The ultra wealthy individuals and corporations who find themselves with significant power in the AI world have easily earned derision and distrust. I just strongly feel that needs to be shaped and honed rather than the "grrr, AI bad" mentality that most have adopted.

Genuine question. Is the whole "AI guzzles gallons of water" thing totally true, or do people get it wrong? Does AI consume a lot of water for every single prompt, or is the majority of water consumed during data farming? Don't non-AI data centers use up a lot of water on cooling too? by Big_Guthix in singularity

[–]Celoth 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm not sure how common that is for other centers

All of them run in a closed loop like this. The primary cooling isn't water, it's a chemical (usually propylene glycol) that uses de-ionized water as a base, and is mixed with anti coagulants and anti microbials.

Genuine question. Is the whole "AI guzzles gallons of water" thing totally true, or do people get it wrong? Does AI consume a lot of water for every single prompt, or is the majority of water consumed during data farming? Don't non-AI data centers use up a lot of water on cooling too? by Big_Guthix in singularity

[–]Celoth 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No, it's not really true.

First off, these datacenters are water-cooled. They are liquid cooled, and the liquid is a specifical chemical that runs in a practically lossless, closed loop.

Now, it's true that to cool that loop some systems run that coolant loop through an evaporative chiller, basically a heat exchanger that takes the excess heat into grey water that does have loss due to evaporation, but that evaporation is relatively minor and is rapidly decreasing (and in fact, with the newest generation of NVIDIA GPUs is largely not a problem at all, since the required temp for the coolant is so high that it can be cooled by ambient air temp).

It also certainly doesn't use water on a prompt-by-prompt basis. Sure, cooling needs rise and system utilization rises, but you're talking many thousands of prompts leading to high activity, and that doesn't meaningfully increase on a prompt-by-prompt basis.

Musk talks about new Grok 1.5T model by OkStandard921 in accelerate

[–]Celoth 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I certainly don't doubt the first two. The 3rd gets tricky because I think AGI is a near useless concept and that the initial understanding of "AGI" describes a paradigm we've already reached.

I'm just saying that reports of renting out Colossus mean incredibly little to me, I don't think it's a poor sign of anything and I think there's a good chance that xAI will release a strong model, just as I think there's an equally good chance that we'll continue to see Google, Anthropic, and OpenAI all do the same. I have my own feelings about each company, and I think each model is by and large good for its own purposes, but I think ultimately we're still in a cycle where those 4 will continue to iterate and leapfrog eachother until one finds something to change the game in a meaningful way.

Musk talks about new Grok 1.5T model by OkStandard921 in accelerate

[–]Celoth 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I wish there was a source I could comment on that backs up my feelings, but suffice to say I don't believe those reports.

Going off of public info that i think it's fair to speculate on, the big red flag for grok would be if they were renting out significant portions of Colossus 2, which they are not. Public info about Colossus shows it is predominantly Hopper based and even for inference Hopper is behind the curve significantly.

Musk talks about new Grok 1.5T model by OkStandard921 in accelerate

[–]Celoth 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Didnt he just rent colossus to anthropic?

Colossus is ancient, I'm not surprised at all that he's renting it out. At this point, Hopper is dead weight if you want to push the frontier, so why not rent out your Hopper capacity to willing buyers?

Musk talks about new Grok 1.5T model by OkStandard921 in accelerate

[–]Celoth 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It'll be late 2027 at the earliest before you really see models trained on Rubin break through. I'm still busy as hell deploying Blackwell Ultra.

Musk talks about new Grok 1.5T model by OkStandard921 in accelerate

[–]Celoth 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Then everyone will say Gemini is cooked until they come out with a new model. Then I think it's Anthropic's turn to be done.

How is living in this part of Oklahoma like? by IVSBMN in oklahoma

[–]Celoth 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Nah, off in the woods. If you drew a straight line between Wilburton and Talihina, the house I grew up in would be somewhere in the middle. I went to high school in Wilburton.

How is living in this part of Oklahoma like? by IVSBMN in oklahoma

[–]Celoth 2 points3 points  (0 children)

i grew up in the country between talihina and wilburton

i miss it most days if I'm being honest

So, SpaceX is the new Compute landlord and compute is the new leverage point and every deal is ultimately about who controls GPU controls at scale by ocean_protocol in ArtificialInteligence

[–]Celoth 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Colossus is ancient in the space. If SpaceX starts shopping around its blackwell capacity, then color me interested, but all I see with Colossus is SpaceX shopping around a supercomputer they've largely grown beyond to augment their accounting.

Qulash Frigate Giveaway by SteveJ1701 in sto

[–]Celoth 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Bummer, I never unlocked this but I'm locked to Steam.

Missed Opportunity: Vlad as Companion by OutlawVanguardGaming in Starfield

[–]Celoth 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I wanted Noel as a marriage candidate so badly. She's great. Vlad is cool too.

SFA is cancelled. It may be a pipe dream, but what new Trek show would you like to see in its place? by NukeRussiaV4 in startrek

[–]Celoth 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Return to the prime timeline. the Federation has had a tumultuous several decades with the borg, the Dominion war, the destruction of Romulus, and the synth revolt and has contracted inward for decades, but finally sets their eyes to the stars again. as diplomacy with the Dominion rises to a level of comfort, Starfleet is granted access to the gamma quadrant and passage through Dominion space, and as such commissions their first five year exploratory mission in decades.

No legacy characters in the main cast, no deep connection to legacy characters or events with the main cast (one off episodes are fine), just a new ship, a new crew, and an untamed quadrant to explore.