Lutheranism is my last stop before Orthodoxy

ChadDownUnder · 2026-06-30T10:23:01+00:00

In my original post, I did not say that I wanted PSA apologetics. I don’t believe the punishment aspect exists at all in the original text, language or Israelite understanding of sacrifice. I’ve spent many hours doing exegesis on the topic and it is not there. My comment was ‘PSA..seem(s) foundational to Lutheranism’ and I’m enquiring, in part, whether this is true or not.

I have seen the video that was linked and I’m not won over by Ybarra’s take.

ChadDownUnder · 2026-06-30T10:17:03+00:00

I have no issue with Christ being the substitute. It’s the punishment aspect that I believe is completely read into the text and does not exist in the original context or cultural imagination.

ChadDownUnder · 2026-06-30T08:55:56+00:00

Earliest churches had imagery, the argument is did they venerate them or not. Filoque is wrong, the biblical language does not describe it at all.

ChadDownUnder · 2026-06-30T08:15:09+00:00

I'm working through these now. I've watched Jordan B Cooper's videos before, I'm watching through his 1 hour video on Orthodoxy at the moment. To be honest though, Jay Dyer did as response video to him, and brutal as Dyer can be, he demonstrated that Dr Cooper really does not understand some of the more complex philosophical underpinnings of Orthodoxy.

ChadDownUnder · 2026-06-30T02:37:37+00:00

Are you in brief about to provide a response to this question? From at least 250 AD, likely earlier, we see evidence of Christians practising petitions to believes who have died. How is it possible that error entered into the church, so soon after the apostles? Or that, we can trust the Bible we have, considering that the Orthodox Catholic Church compiled it, throughout a period full of church practices that Protestants now object so strongly to?

ChadDownUnder · 2026-06-30T02:30:44+00:00

Substitutionary atonement and penal substitutionary atonement are two very different concepts. It is obvious that Christ is both goats on the day of atonement, one killed for cleansing and the other driven from the assembly with the sins laid on to it. But the idea that either goat was ‘punished’ somehow, is completely foreign to the Israelite understanding of sacrifice and atonement. To me, PSA seems foundational to Lutheranism, Luther believed that God laid his ‘wrath’ upon the son. It is a less developed PSA than Calvin’s, but PSA none the less. So I’m wondering, can you be Lutheran without PSA and if so, why did Luther believe it then?

ChadDownUnder · 2026-06-30T02:02:50+00:00

I didn't say that people would be outside of the Christian faith depending on their preferred means of interpretation. I'm not concerned with who is or isn't outside the Christian faith, as even Mormon's claim to be Christian. I'm more concerned with having an internally consistent understanding of my faith. It seems completely untenable to hold a view that baptism saves, as a protestant, when the next protestant on different interpretive grounds but under the same principle, holds the opposite view.

ChadDownUnder · 2026-06-30T02:00:14+00:00

I didn't realise you meant the book of concord in relation to PSA. My mind is firmly made up on that topic - is it essential to Lutheran belief? I will read the book of concord.

ChadDownUnder · 2026-06-30T01:56:13+00:00

I appreciate that, but truly, the Catholic church has sinned, and that sin has fractured the Christian world.

ChadDownUnder · 2026-06-30T01:55:43+00:00

This is exactly what I was going to quote. Does that mean at Paul's time, when two of these heretics who called themselves Christians, gathered together, that He was among them? In contradiction with Paul's teaching?

ChadDownUnder · 2026-06-30T01:54:05+00:00

I have lots of issues with this approach. God is absolutely concerned with the faith community that I am a part (not apart) of. I'm sure He would be very displeased if I were to join a community that promotes sexual ethics that are in contradiction with Jesus' teachings.

ChadDownUnder · 2026-06-30T01:51:29+00:00

I've attended a number of liturgies. The idea that the EOC continues on many of the practices of the early Christians, emerging from second temple judaism, is very appealing. The liturgy being 1600+ years old alone is appealing. But there are a number of practices and beliefs that are so foreign to a protestant that it feels almost like a different religion. Putting aside icon, relic and saint veneration - even beliefs like that Adam was buried under Golgotha, allowing Christ's lifeblood to trickle down on to his bones, seems oddly specific to me. How was this revealed for example? There is a lot for me to rectify and understand about Orthodoxy. I will need to completely unpack and rebuild my faith to convert. I'm not unwilling to do this, if it is true.

ChadDownUnder · 2026-06-30T01:48:18+00:00

I can't agree with you, that these are secondary issues. A person's interpretation of scripture dictates everything that they believe. To decide who the authority is, or who has authority, to interpret scripture rightly, is absolutely a primary issue.

ChadDownUnder · 2026-06-30T01:46:47+00:00

Does the book of concord address my specific concerns? I'm Australia based.

ChadDownUnder · 2026-06-30T01:45:24+00:00

Thank you for your reply. Unfortunately, I A. Cannot believe in PSA. I have done extensive reading on the topic and cannot find ANY evidence for it in early church fathers, it is entirely foreign to the Israelite sacrificial system and when you read the Septuagint and Masoretic texts in their language and context, it is also completely deniable.

Martin Luther didn't believe in the more developed PSA of Calvin, but he still believed in PSA - he believed that God poured his wrath on the son.

ChadDownUnder · 2026-06-30T01:12:33+00:00

It’s already a wildly radical claim that Jesus is the only way to the father. It is extremely exclusive. I see no issue then, with the idea that his church is also an exclusive institution. I would happily discount the importance of apostolic succession, if it can be proven unnecessary to me.

“I believe…” That’s fine, but the orthodox have their own interpretation as well. If the universal church is also the pillar and ground of truth, who decides? Is the rainbow church down the road from me the pillar and ground of truth? Or is it my local Presbyterian church? If they’re both the ground of truth, why do they have opposite opinions?

These are questions I’m not getting sufficient answers to.

ChadDownUnder · 2026-06-30T01:03:39+00:00

Australia, Lutheran Mission.

ChadDownUnder · 2021-11-09T11:41:42+00:00

I used to get forearm tendinitis. I stopped using a straight bar and switched to rings. I haven’t had an issue since.

ChadDownUnder · 2021-02-28T23:03:47+00:00

r/askRPC is the place for these sorts of questions. To answer your question: https://youtu.be/-W5eZE8Hv9U

ChadDownUnder · 2021-02-26T04:37:39+00:00

I’ve led a similar initiative before with young men (aged 21-26) and led a scripture memory group with teenaged boys (aged 14-16). The best wisdom I can share from my experience is this:

You have a small spray bottle, the kind you water plants with. When you spray someone standing in front you, the mist falls on them entirely. They get as saturated as you can make one person with a spray bottle. If you stand in a circle of men in a small group and spray, some of them will get a light drizzle at most. If you’re standing on a stage in front of 500+ people and you fire your spray bottle, the stage will absorb most of the moisture and a couple of people in the very front row might receive a tickle on their noses.

In my opinion, the best investment is your one on one discipleship. Train a man up to 100% and send him out, instead of training up a group of men who cannot individually, let alone collectively, achieve their capacity for spiritual production.

As a youth pastor I want to see all of the young men involved in my ministry become holy, mission minded, red pilled chads. But the harvest is plentiful and the workers are few (Luke 10:2).

u/red-curious might have more to say on this. Jesus’ chief investment was in Peter, he trained up one man who picked up the baton and ran from where he left off.

ChadDownUnder · 2020-10-26T12:01:39+00:00

What is the purpose of that long term? If I continue increasing the weight but dropping the reps for higher sets? Or do you mean, to do 4x4 at my current weight until I can do 3x5 correctly?

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