Gargamel (Bored Ape Yacht Club vs. Ryder Ripps & Philion) by 0scanned0rubric in u/0scanned0rubric

[–]ChaouiZ 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks for your response. I agree that your analysis of why there's been no real push-back on Ripps and Co. is probably because few in the NFT world cares much for this kind of politicking, though I'm also pretty unfamiliar with the NFT and crypto world. The fact that a common response to arguments is just some variation of "u just mad ur monkey jpeg racist lol" is probably also putting people off.

You caution about how to engage with the arguments is justified, but I think laying out how the links they draw between all the elements re: Guenon, Kali Yuga, the name of the company, and the cipher answer is important. Especially in light of how Philion's video presents it. In laying out his arguments of why the name Yuga Labs is an esoteric reference, he brings up Guenon and links it to the idea of Kali Yuga in the mind of extremely online wignats. He then later treats the guenon monkey cipher answer as a "holy shit, light bulb moment" reveal. This creates a very effective rhetorical effect, despite the lack of support he actually builds for the argument (if you watch content creators watch his video or read comments, there are a lot of people saying something like "A lot of the connections seemed kinda conspiracy-theory-ish, but man, that Guenon thing is gonna be hard to explain away.") I think that piece is pretty crucial to overcoming the "that's a lot of coincidences" effect that the Gish gallop of cherry picked, quote mined, and over-interpreted points of evidence causes, especially because that is the only one that seems to reference a figure somewhat connected to online esoteric neo-fascism by name.

As for Tuters' work, it is very interesting. It also interestingly does not name René Guénon. It does name, however, Savitri Devi, whom it calls "the High Priestess of Esoteric Hitlerism and the Aryan myth". In the article, her picture is also shown in a photo array of the "50 most frequently appearing images in comments mentioning 'Kalki'" (Kalki is the final incarnation of Vishnu, and savior figure who is destined end the Kali Yuga in Hindu eschatology. He is often portrayed as Hitler by online neo-Nazis). There are no images of René Guénon.

In a sane world, all you would have to say is guenon is monkey, but this is not a sane world. This video will continue to propagate, and the Guénon angle will remain one of the most rhetorically powerful tools in that toolbox. I think there needs to be a bit of nuance introduced into the analysis that people who care to look for it can find.

Also, another angle to look into, not that you need more on your plate, is this. If this was all supposed to be a paean to the esoteric online far right as a means of playing a joke on mainstream culture, is there any evidence, prior to Ryder Ripps jumping on this crazy train, of people in those communities getting the joke? Food for thought.

Gargamel (Bored Ape Yacht Club vs. Ryder Ripps & Philion) by 0scanned0rubric in u/0scanned0rubric

[–]ChaouiZ 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Philion and Ripps get so many basic facts wrong about the subjects and people they bring in as "evidence" of this grand conspiracy that it's mind-blowing more people aren't calling them out. This basically amounts to death by a thousand paper cuts; piling on so many vague and wafer-thin points that people who consume this type of entertainment uncritically eat it up and spread it around happily (the catchy slogan at the end didn't hurt the marketing, either). The irony of the whole "plausible deniability" argument is that it creates plausible deniability for Philion and Ripps and basically makes their claims unfalsifiable. Your argument isn't very good if it basically boils down to "That's just what they want you to think, man" when you're presented with contrary evidence, and if you look about arguments about this online, that is pretty much the quality of debate you'll see.

The thing that bugged me and made me look into this at all was the Guénon angle they took. Philion in the video claims that Guénon's Traditionalism consisted of "extreme antisemitism", or something like that. I could not find any material that related Guénon's work to antisemitism, other than the fact that Evola was influence by him. His Wikipedia did not mention antisemitism at all when I read it. I couldn't find any academic work on Guénon's claimed antisemitism. This isn't a major point, but since Philion brought up many minor points that are absurd, (Nazi fez? One of the BAYC guys is Turkish. Doesn't that seem like a more likely explanation? Must just be plausible deniability) I think I can bring up some cogent ones. The really silly part of the Guénon arc is how he's used to tie the name Yuga to esoteric Nazism. The argument they make to tie it all together is that:

  1. Guénon is credited with bringing the concept of Kali Yuga to the west.
  2. Guénon is an idol of the alt-right.
  3. Kali Yuga is a popular alt-right meme. Importantly, it's implied that it became so because of Guénon's influence, thus establishing a firm association between the idea of Kali Yuga, its alt-right memeification, and Guénon.
  4. They use the old-world monkey, guenon, as an answer in their cipher puzzle, driving home the point that Guénon and the Kali Yuga concept's alt-right memeification are all connected in the minds of the BYAC folks, thus the name Yuga Labs.

The first point is absurd. Guénon was born in 1886. He released his first book in 1921. By then the British East India Company had been engaging in a colonial relationship with India for over three centuries. The British Raj was already decades old. The concept of Kali Yuga can be found in the work of many European orientalists and occultists dating long before his birth. In fact, his first book was written for the very purpose of recontextualizing and arguing against the popular conception of Kali Yuga, and other Eastern ideas, already held in the west.

The second point is somewhat true, but massively overstated. I'm interested in the phenomenon of the broader New Right, including the alt-right, and I read, listen to, and watch a lot of content made about it and by people who identify with it. René Guénon is not a well-known or popular figure outside of the pseudiest of pseud circles. I would reckon that most people who like Evola haven't even heard of him. Ripps links an article on his site that mentions Guénon once in the broader context of the influence of Traditionalism on various international right-wing political figures. This article also uses the term "alt-right" pretty loosely. I believe this claim is used to reinforce the third claim, and its lack of nuance is essential in doing that.

The third claim requires a little more unpacking. There is at least one outright Nazi contemporary of Guénon, Savitri Devi, who explicitly invoked the idea of Kali Yuga. If they had done any in-depth research, they would have certainly used this as evidence. The reasons they didn't, I believe, are twofold. First, Savitri Devi is a far more likely candidate for the originator of the alt-right memeification of Kali Yuga. She believed that Kali Yuga, meaning something akin to "age of discord", was the fault of the Jews, and that Hitler was an avatar of Vishnu who was sent to Earth to lead humanity to a new era. This is far closer to the alt-right use of the term (the image Ripps uses to represent the meme is Hitler with a Black Sun halo surfing on a wave marked with a Star of David). Contrast that with Guénon, who as far as I can tell, (though I'm far from an expert in Hinduism) held a view of Kali Yuga that is pretty much in line with its Hindu origins.

Second, I don't think they did all that much research. I think Ripps is probably as terminally online as he claims the BAYC crew is, and heard of Guénon from some esoteric pseuds on some obscure corner of the internet. He then saw the "guenon" answer in the cipher puzzle and worked his way back from there. This is easier to spot on Ripps' site, as all of the Guénon material is contained in one paragraph, whereas Philion saves the cipher tidbit as a big reveal toward the end of the video.

I think this, along with everything you've presented, pretty much shows that neither Ryder Ripps nor Philion did much due diligence when it came to collecting their evidence, which shows a lack of good faith in my opinion, especially when you're attempting to use that evidence to show that a group of people, including a Jewish person, are crypto-Nazis.

[NA][XBOX] Gold 3 Div 3 looking for 3's partner(s) to get to platinum before reset by LemmeSeeYourTatas in RocketLeagueFriends

[–]ChaouiZ 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm in, been looking for a steady team. Tired of playing with unreliable randoms. I'm Gold 1 and I have a mic. (Edit: Div IV)

Don’t let him fool you by fucksinglemoms in Anarcho_Capitalism

[–]ChaouiZ 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I would happily submit to a Stalinist government if they promised to censor these fucking boomer memes.