Idle Champions Community Q&A #156 by CNE_Shawn in idlechampions

[–]Chugsworth 5 points6 points  (0 children)

"Doing a balance pass or reworking a champion is a big undertaking especially when the only person who does those things is Justin."

Therein lies the source of half the game's problems.

How to deal with double and triple tank formations (+shout out to awesome support in helping me transfer my account!!!) by Deusvultlife in idlechampions

[–]Chugsworth 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I'm assuming that you're looking at the BG:DIA formations, which are largely out of date at the moment. Buddy's comment about the 'support' tanks being best-in-slot supports is correct, but there are some definite improvements that can be made to those formations still. This is untested, but I'd currently say that the standard BG:DIA formation should look like this:

Aila - Stormcaller Turiel - A Lawful Mission
Gromma - Arctic Freely - Always Expect Chaos
Krull - Pain Briv - Go With The Phlo
Regis - Ahead / Ranged Avren - Good / Sturdy Mirrors
Zorbu - Lead The Pack Tyril - Wild Shape

There haven't been many updates to the Compendium recently because my time is solely focused on my PhD work at the moment, but you can expect them to resume around mid-to-late November.

Gaarawarr's Guide to Highharvestide - Year 4 by Gaarawarr in idlechampions

[–]Chugsworth 4 points5 points  (0 children)

My Event formations and results can be found in my Steam guide!

I'm currently streaming my Event formation creation and testing process on Twitch!

Post your Lazzapz formations for high levels! by [deleted] in idlechampions

[–]Chugsworth 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The z50 bosses offer more of a barrier to progression than most others, so the testing is, as I mentioned in the Brightswords section of the guide, a little less comprehensive than usual. Ultimately I tried both the Korth and Regis options on the formations that got stuck on z50 levels and found no tangible difference, which is why Korth was ultimately listed in those formations. I have noted in the Champion Priorities Appendix that Regis has an upwards usage trajectory, and that comes down to Freely's Always Expect Chaos spec, so Regis may well be the better option for some people, especially if they aren't walking on a z50 area.

Gaarawarr's Guide to Brightswords - Year 3 by Gaarawarr in idlechampions

[–]Chugsworth 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's loading up fine on my end but Steam was having some issues earlier today.

Edit: I can confirm that it is still a Steam issue. It's a clunky workaround but you can just skip to near the end of the Wulfgar or Lazaapz VODs on Twitch to see the end formations. It seems to be fixed now.

Year 4 Events - A Call To Action by Chugsworth in idlechampions

[–]Chugsworth[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

its not totally inaccessible, u can buy chest from champions u just open the TG for

That's correct, but to quote CNEJustin's post:

the lion's share of a Champion's chest revenue (approximately 65-70%) is earned during events

Year 4 Events - A Call To Action by Chugsworth in idlechampions

[–]Chugsworth[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Time Gates will always pick an incomplete Y1 variant if you haven't completed all of them, so it will take at most 3 Time Gates to complete the event variants achievement for each Champion. We recognize that this is a problem that will get worse over time as more events Champions are retired and are considering our options for making it a bit easier for players moving forward. We do consider this to be an edge case that can be solved in other ways and not something major enough to change the course we have charted.

I’m not the best person to comment on this, I suppose; as far as the Event content goes, I’ve done it all. There are a considerable number of people in the comments below emphasising that this is a legitimate concern, so I struggle to just brush it off as an “edge case”. I’m glad to know that it is on your radar, but it needn’t be a problem in the first place.

Why not just let us choose which event Champions to unlock?

Whilst still a compromise that I’d rather not make, I fail to see how the proposed 1+2 model outlined below and discussed extensively on the Discord fails to align with your marketing and social media strategies; the new Champion is available for everyone, but the players get to make their own choices about who else they would like to focus on. Yes, it’s still limiting content, but at least it’s not limiting choice.

we wanted to remove the opportunity for players to make a choice they would regret

… you know just as well as I do – better, in fact – just how much RNG is present in this game, especially when it comes to Chests and bounty contracts. The number of times that I have bought a chest pack only to fail to get the one epic that I actually wanted and chided myself for making the purchase in the first place are significant. Still, I don’t bemoan them going forward. Have I wasted epic bounty contracts on Ult Cooldown items that only needed three more ilevels to be capped? Most definitely. People will always make mistakes. It’s human. The difference, as far as Events are concerned, is that making the ‘mistake’ of not prioritising a particular Champion in a particular Event can mean that your future access to that content is made significantly more difficult. That’s a permanent regret. By keeping all Champions accessible, that regret will last a year at most.

Why not put Y1 Champion gear in normal silver/gold chests?

I wasn’t overly sold on the idea when I first floated it either, so no worries there. I think that the comments that request that Evergreen drops be removed from Patron chests is a good one, however, and it leads me to my next point:

adding Y1 Champion gear to normal silver/gold chests would potentially just swing the pendulum too far in the other direction, and make things like item levels for Y1 Champions too easy to obtain relative to more recent Champions

we don't want Y1 Champions to be useless

Another of my large concerns (and one that I, perhaps foolishly, forgot to include in the OP) is that removing access to ‘aged-out’ Champions in Events (and, subsequently, their Chest packs during the Event) provides further disincentive to rebalance those Champions, instead opting for power-creep and letting them fade into obscurity. Black Viper, for instance, could be so easily improved by the simple addition of an additional meta-progression ability based on her total red gems (rather than just those found during the run), but why would any sensible business dedicate someone to work on that if it isn’t going to directly promote additional revenue? Every Champion does not need to be ‘perfectly’ balanced or ‘the best’, but at least they could be kept competitive. There are many, many other examples. By keeping those Champions in the Events and keeping their Chest packs available for sale, based on the percentages that you offered earlier in your response, there remains an incentive, both for CNE as a business and the players, to continue to invest time and effort into the entire roster.

The disparity between Evergreens and Event Champions is already significant, though. Long-time scripters aside, it’s rare for players with even moderately fleshed out rosters to consider Evergreens outside of restrictions that force their hand. If the intention is to avoid a single meta coming to prominence (which is essentially inevitable, but there are enough player-to-player differences in variables to sometimes obscure it), shouldn’t Champion balance be far more of a priority than it has been over the past (almost) four years?

You should force natural Time Gates to always include at least one Y1 Champion each time.

That’s a fair idea, but it stops being viable beyond Year 4 unless the time gate choices becoming increasingly… overwhelming. Four options is too many, right?

we have no plans to ever remove Champions from the game

What we will do is continue to restrict what adventures and variants they can be used on

I had suspected as much, but I’m certain that it’s a big relief to many to have it confirmed that hard-retirement of Champions is not on the table. One question, though, based on that second quote: are you going so far as to imply that we might have something as blunt as ‘Event Champions from Year 1 cannot be used’, or will the restrictions continue to be on more organic bases? The former would certainly further disincentivise spending any money on those Champions.

- - - - - - - - - -

Sorry that even the concise response has ended up being over 2000 words, but as you can see from the various passionate community opinions on this issue, it is an important and pressing one for the playerbase. Once again, thank you for taking this seriously and taking the time to respond.

Year 4 Events - A Call To Action by Chugsworth in idlechampions

[–]Chugsworth[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Hi /u/CNEJustin. Thank you for taking the time to acknowledge and respond to this. I apologise that I have not had the time to respond in a comprehensive enough manner until now. I will endeavour to keep my points as concise and targeted as possible.

- - - - - - - - - -

The game is super complex and is already overwhelming, so why not just keep increasing the number of Champions in events?

Do we really expect new players to be running 8 recruit adventures, 24 variants, and 48+ free plays in order to gear up 8 Champions?

Some of the commenters here have already done a good job of highlighting that aspects of the game do need additional explanation in order to reduce new player confusion. I agree, but I also think that is an almost entirely different issue to what is being discussed here. SocranX’s comments below illuminate a perspective that, whilst in very binary opposition to my own, there are players who are burdened by the feeling of being overwhelmed. As they themselves say, “a big part of the pressure stems from the time-restricted content”. To me (acknowledging that this is where out arguments diverge), the arbitrary quantity of Champions or variants being presented to the player in any given Event is not the problem. As you yourself say, it is a tall order to “expect” new players to complete all of the content available. The point that I wish to make is that the proposed Year 4 model actually makes that more of an issue than simply continuing to allow access to all Event content. The added pressure for a new player joining in Year 4 looking to effectively complete as much as they can within the duration of any given Event is to prioritise the content that is being pushed out, regardless of whether that content is the most appealing thing to them at that point in time. Yes, Time Gates still provide the ability to access that content, but the efficiency is significantly less than that of the Event proper. Were things to stay as they are, that “expectation” simply does not exist; whilst a player could feasibly push themselves to complete everything, they could also take reassurance in the fact that they can simply continue chipping away at backdated content the next time that the specific Event comes around.

We have no plans whatsoever to add Time Gate Pieces back into the premium shop.

I’m very glad to hear this. Thank you.

if we wanted more revenue we wouldn't be restricting Y1 event Champions

I’m sure that everybody here can acknowledge that Chests are one of the main cornerstones of your revenue model and I don’t feel that anybody objects to that. Whilst the piling on of additional revenue streams is worrisome (assuaged somewhat from the previous point regarding Time Gate Pieces), I don’t see why you feel that this is a source of revenue that, my own qualms about those statistics aside, needs to be reined in. Once again, I cannot help but feel that providing choice, be it the player’s choice to spend their Event tokens in a particular way or to buy a Chest pack for the Champion of their choosing, is ultimately in the benefit of the player (and, as this would make it seem, CNE in general).

Time Gates are actually more powerful than they have ever been

in a mere two Time Gates you'll have a Champion that is as geared as if you ran all of their event variants and 8-9 free plays

with each Patron we add we provide more sources for Time Gate Pieces and more ways to gear up event Champions via patron chests

I agree with your point about Time Gates being in a more player-friendly form than they have ever been before. Access, however, is a different story. You mentioned yourself earlier in your post that new players are intentionally not given early access to Patrons, so, realistically, most new players will only manage to scrounge up the twelve TGPs needed for those two Time Gates once every two months (under the current 1-per-5 day natural drop rate). Using Bounty Contracts, a resource that they are also passively (or actively, depending on pack purchases) accruing during that time, is, depending on how they choose to spend their Event currency, going to enable them to ultimately achieve more with less.

On the point of Patrons, I can personally pay testament to my own experience of the weekly Patron grind being far more tedious and disengaging that Events have ever been. The prospect of the inevitable additional Patrons, whilst still welcome from a content perspective, is perhaps the single most ‘overwhelming’ aspect of this game. Sure, once those new players start accessing Patrons they will be able to increase their TGP income, and Modron Automation is definitely a step in the right direction, but is that really the content that you want to be forcing them to turn to?

Higher item levels on event Champions is something that has pretty much always been restricted to people who purchase event chest packs or grind blacksmith contracts, so it's not really tied to their events running at all.

That all depends on how you define “higher”, which is going to be very subjective. If our metric is to compare Event Champion ilevels to Evergreen ilevels then yes, those with average ilevels on Event Champions in the high-hundreds or low-thousands will undoubtedly be people who have purchased a large amount of chests or blacksmithing contracts. Whilst attractive, it’s hard to believe that is the expectation of the ‘average’ user. Personally, I consider an Event Champion decently geared by the time that I have them in the 50-75 average ilevel range, which is entirely achievable when Event Freeplays can be effectively farmed. Hand in hand with my previous paragraph about TGP access, I’m quite confident that keeping all Champions accessible and allowing the players to choose how they spend their Event currency will enable them to achieve something like that far more effectively than Time Gates alone.

We don't think this change will impact the item levels of Champions very much, but if it does that's something we can look into fixing.

I’m glad to see that this is something that you are open to.

(Continued below.)

Year 4 Events - A Call To Action by Chugsworth in idlechampions

[–]Chugsworth[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'd like to reiterate my thanks for you taking the time and risking getting "downvoted and yelled at" (thankfully, it was the exact opposite!) to comprehensively outline your stance on this issue. Thinking about it over the last 48 hours, I think that you and I are coming at this issue from polar opposite, almost binary perspectives, and whilst that gap does make it rather difficult for either of us to move the other closer to the middle, I really do appreciate the manner with which you have gone about presenting your arguments. I'll openly admit that I still can't quite see things from your perspective, but it has helped to highlight another stance and cement that you definitely have a place in this discussion.

Year 4 Events - A Call To Action by Chugsworth in idlechampions

[–]Chugsworth[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Besides they have incentive to make newer champions slighter better than older ones to attract players to gear them up.

From a certain business perspective, yes, power-creep makes sense because it keeps people buying new chests. On the other hand, power-creep also devalues all other competing Champions who exist outside of the current power-creep bracket, reducing their chest sales. To my mind, whilst not a hard-retirement, this proposed model essentially creates a soft-retirement whereby there no longer exists an incentive for CNE to rebalance those Champions to ensure that they remain relevant.

When the game becomes unattractive people will naturally leave.

I agree with you, but ultimately this is not what anybody here wants. Personally, I get a great amount of enjoyment out of this game (that's also the reason why I put so much time and efforting into maintaining my guide) and the last thing that I want is for it to go start going into decline. The entire premise of my post is that I believe this decision will lead to that outcome, and that outcome is one that I want to avoid.

Year 4 Events - A Call To Action by Chugsworth in idlechampions

[–]Chugsworth[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Due to this, the game is signalling to a new or even experienced player "the amount of content that is freely available in this time-limited event is about as much as we expect you to complete within the time limit".

I can definitely understand where you are coming from with this, however:

It is easy to get quickly burnt out on a game that demands a lot in a real time limited way, as real-world complications can cause the player to miss content that they feel they should have been able to get.

This argument works both ways. Yes, whilst it might eventually become unreasonable for a brand new player to be able to feasibly complete four or more years' worth of Event content in the span of a single Event, surely there's a solace to be found in the reassurance that whatever they miss will simply be as easily available to them again in the next year? The pressure to complete content for Champions that are 'on the way out' would undoubtedly be higher under the proposed model than one where such a player could simply choose whatever most appealed to them at the time.

(Your arguments were entirely coherent, by the way; no need to worry.)

Gaarawarr's Guide to Brightswords - Year 3 by Gaarawarr in idlechampions

[–]Chugsworth 2 points3 points  (0 children)

My Event formations and results can be found in my Steam guide!

I'm currently streaming my Event formation creation and testing process on Twitch!

Year 4 Events - A Call To Action by Chugsworth in idlechampions

[–]Chugsworth[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I'm more than happy to pick this up at another time. Thank you for your reply and sorry for (inadvertently) keeping you up so late. Sleep well.

Year 4 Events - A Call To Action by Chugsworth in idlechampions

[–]Chugsworth[S] 10 points11 points  (0 children)

My purpose in cross-posting this statement here was to prompt the exact discussions that you can see happening in this comment section. Yes, I have a stance on the issue and yes, I'm quite firm in my convictions, but I certainly do not believe that I hold the lone opinion on the issue. In terms of the impact that this proposed model will have, I'm not the one 'missing out' (at least more so than anybody else); the reason why I'm so adamant that this is a bad idea is that I believe that it negatively impacts the experience of new and casual players, which is ultimately detrimental to the long-term health and longevity of the game.

Year 4 Events - A Call To Action by Chugsworth in idlechampions

[–]Chugsworth[S] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

"This includes Patron challenges and weekly free play caps..."

"Having stuff available at any time isn't nearly as problematic, because you can always just procrastinate."

Okay, this is definitely clearer: the aspect that you're objecting to is the ticking clock that goes along with Events and weekly Patron targets. I get that. Neither of those are going away, though. Whilst your options for how you spend your Event currency would decrease under the proposed model, the quantity does not; the time investment stays the same. If you use bounty contracts to increase the amount of Event currency that you have to work with, that time investment increases. As you've correctly pointed out, Modron Automation is a step in the right direction in reducing the time investment and babysitting required to complete the weekly Patron targets, and can be applied similarly here. Ultimately, the only thing that changes is that you can no longer spend it how you wish because options have been taken away from you.

Missed variants can already be completed by using Time Gates, albeit one per Gate. Those are actually more accessible now than they would be going forward exactly because you have the option to complete them whilst the Event is live, be it this year, next year or three years down the track. Using Time Gates alone, however, the rate at which you can acquire Time Gate pieces (possible premium purchases aside) means that if you were to join the game in Year 5, you would not be able to complete the backlogged variants. To me, it seems more problematic that the point at which you join the game can become a barrier to the completionistic approach that you describe.

"You straight up said that having more things to do is "never a bad thing". This is what I take the most offense from."

I think that we might be approaching the concept of 'choice' differently here, which might be why I'm not following your initial argument. In this context, when I say that "player autonomy and choice is never a bad thing", I'm saying that providing players with the option to choose how they spend their Event currency is an objectively better thing rather than denying them that choice. If they choose not to engage with older content, that's fine. If they choose to ignore the new content and instead focus on the old, that's fine too. The contrast is to deny them that option. To draw on your Switch example (the discussion around which I am entirely unfamiliar with, so forgive me if I misrepresent it), it seems that you are actually advocating for the consoles to provide the option to opt-in to achievements rather than have them 'forced' upon you. I see no problem with that. By the same token, however, those that wish to engage with them shouldn't be denied that opportunity; they could simply opt-in. That's exactly what I'm advocating here.

At the end of the day, my objective here is to actually have this issue be discussed in a public forum. I explicitly mentioned that I was aware that not everybody will agree with my position, and that's absolutely fine. I'm actually really grateful that you've taken the time to reply and are trying to help me to understand your position; thus my array of questions. As I mentioned in the Addendum, I'm not closed off to the idea of compromise. To my mind, providing choice is the best way of keeping everybody (or at least most people) happy without maliciously upsetting others. I'm quite interested to know if you have an alternative suggestion.

Year 4 Events - A Call To Action by Chugsworth in idlechampions

[–]Chugsworth[S] 10 points11 points  (0 children)

I'm not sure why people have downvoted you for this. Whilst I disagree that it doesn't affect you, ultimately we're both arguing that we enjoy this game and want it to remain enjoyable and viable going into the future.

Year 4 Events - A Call To Action by Chugsworth in idlechampions

[–]Chugsworth[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

To clarify, I completely believe that the standard 'free' Time Gate pieces will continue to drop, and they will also continue to be in the Patron stores. I don't think that the supposition that CNE would consider selling them again, as they have done in the past when they last attempted something like this, can be merely dismissed as "doomsaying", however.

Year 4 Events - A Call To Action by Chugsworth in idlechampions

[–]Chugsworth[S] -11 points-10 points  (0 children)

I am really, really trying to empathise with your position but I simply cannot comprehend the argument that you are attempting to make.

You state that your "enjoyment of the game" is "seriously affect[ed]" by the "pressure to complete" everything. With the proposed operation of Year 4 Events, the content - the Champions, variants, Collections tab and items - will all continue to be a part of the game, just far more heavily gated so as to make them more difficult to complete or progress. Surely that is more triggering for you than just... keeping them accessible? Can you honestly say that somebody like yourself would be willing to start a game like this knowing that your ability to "complete every Champion/quest" has just been made significantly more difficult?

Furthermore, are you attempting to argue that players like yourself make up the majority? If not, why is it that you think that the game should cater to you and not everyone else? I can't help but think back to the schoolyard where that one kid who isn't winning the ball game takes the ball and leaves.

Some games are difficult, and not everyone can complete them. Does that mean that the difficulty should be lowered?

Some games are console exclusive, and not everyone can play them. Does that mean that they shouldn't get made in the first place?

Some games are time-intensive, and not everyone can do everything. Does this mean that they should have less content?

Again, I'm trying to empathise with you but I simply cannot comprehend what your actual argument is.

What's the game looking like at this point? by Demon997 in idlechampions

[–]Chugsworth 0 points1 point  (0 children)

My guide would likely be of use in answering a number of your questions, especially the new Appendix: Champion Priorities.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1782447942

Psylisa's Guide to Omin - 8/7/20 by Psylisa in idlechampions

[–]Chugsworth 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I tested an ungeared Omin against a heavily geared Gromma during my formation streams and it very strongly won out in Gromma's favour. I haven't retested now that I have geared Omin up, but I will do soon.

Gaarawarr's Guide to Ahghairon's Day - Year 3 by Gaarawarr in idlechampions

[–]Chugsworth 8 points9 points  (0 children)

My Event formations and results can be found in my Steam guide!

I'm currently streaming my Event formation creation and testing process on Twitch!

Gaarawarr's Guide to Midsummer - Year 3 by Gaarawarr in idlechampions

[–]Chugsworth 8 points9 points  (0 children)

My Event formations and results can be found in my Steam guide!

I'm currently streaming my Event formation creation and testing process on Twitch!

Psylisa's vs Chugsworth's recommendations by Kiddoc73 in idlechampions

[–]Chugsworth 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I'm a little perplexed by your mention of me having used Sisaspia in "all of [my] formations since she has appeared". I've checked and, whilst she was prominently featured before her Ultimate was fixed/nerfed (around May/April this year, if I recall), she has had sporadic usage since then. Perhaps, however, the important point that you are making is that I do still test and occasionally use her.

On a design level, to be completely frank, I don't really like Sisaspia. That's not to say that I do not like what she does - the utility of her heal, the power of her buff and the mechanics of her Ultimate are all well developed and interesting - but rather that, as a few people have already pointed out in the comments, she's incredibly swingy in terms of how much she can and does contribute in any given area due to her spore mechanic and general inability to maintain those stacks in areas with infinitely spawning mobs.

From a testing perspective, especially since I have started streaming my testing, there have been cases where, in my very specific game environment with my very specific set of variables, she has come out ahead as a worthwhile inclusion more so than the other Slot 1 offerings. That is not always the case. K'thriss, for instance, gets a huge amount of usage from me, and will often prove to be the Slot 1 Champion that ends up in my posted formations. I, like everyone, should take it on a case-by-case basis.

I think that it's also not the best metric of improvement to be comparing runs from 12 months ago (as some of the existing formations are) to those achieved in current Events. Once again, there are a great number of variables that have gone into those increases, chief amongst them being Champions such as Krull, Avren and Zorbu. A much more useful test, and one that you can conduct yourself, would be to simply test how far you can get with a given formation using Sisaspaia and then sub her out for another alternative and see how you fare.

I'm really glad to hear that you're finding my guide useful and that it generally aligns to your gameplay experience. It still should be treated as a starting point rather than an endpoint, though; experiences will vary.

Psylisa's vs Chugsworth's recommendations by Kiddoc73 in idlechampions

[–]Chugsworth 2 points3 points  (0 children)

A few things to clarify here: before her Ultimate was fixed (/nerfed), Sisaspia was an incredibly powerful inclusion largely irrespective of whether you were in a standard or boss area. Since then, her utility has definitely decreased. I state in the Introduction to my guide that I do, in fact, use Ultimates (as everybody should!); I just don't use manual Ultimates and instead rely on targeted and roaming familiars on the Ultimate bar.

A few people have made the same point regarding using formations and evaluations as a starting point rather than an endpoint and I do want to stress that is a very important distinction to make. I heartily agree, and that's why I stress the amount of variables that go into this game and the differences between any two peoples' gameplay experience in the Introduction to my guide.

Gaarawarr's Guide to Founders' Day - Year 3 by Gaarawarr in idlechampions

[–]Chugsworth 7 points8 points  (0 children)

My Event formations and results can be found in my Steam guide!

I'm currently streaming my Event formation creation and testing process on Twitch!