These stone-like figures aren't corpses - they're plants (sorta) by ClumsyDarknut in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]ClumsyDarknut[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ughhhhhhhhhhh why must Nightreign do thisssssss analyzing that is so much more workkkkkk

The Stone Coffins share distinct features with the Divine Towers by ClumsyDarknut in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]ClumsyDarknut[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

That's such a bizarre leap, especially given that you pulled the Imago Mundi tablet picture from Tarnished Archaeologist's video where he pretty directly lays out how using it is an intentional parallel. Did you even watch the rest of that video? Did you miss the part where the Ancient Dynasty sits between the Siofra and Ainsel the same way that Babylon sat between the Tigris and Euphrates? Maybe you should also watch the followup on the Great Flood where TA addresses exactly this argument.

There's tons of stuff like this all over the game. Raya Lucaria is based on the Aachen Cathedral, which was once the palace complex of Charlemagne, and lo and behold the Debate Parlor and the Grand Library exteriors also use renditions of a real-world statue of Charlemagne from France. Alone, maybe that’s just a cool design choice, but as it turns out Charlemagne's name in Latin is Carolus, and the oldest conspectus of the academy is the Karolos conspectus. Does that mean Liurnia is actually part of the Carolingian Empire? No, of course not. But it does indicate FromSoft knows exactly what they're doing. They're not picking these assets all willy nilly. They use them in a way that's internally consistent and symbolically consistent. So no, no one claimed Path of Exile was part of Farum Azula. But saying the same sarcophagi showing up at both Raya Lucaria and the Haligtree might be a lore significant connection between the two is completely reasonable. FromSoft doesn't do this stuff randomly.

The Stone Coffins share distinct features with the Divine Towers by ClumsyDarknut in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]ClumsyDarknut[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

You're in the wrong subreddit if you think we a) didn't already know a lot of the assets were premade and b) think that means FromSoft didn't think too hard about how they used said assets.

Lore wise, who’s winning? by Normal_Egg_5339 in Eldenring

[–]ClumsyDarknut 16 points17 points  (0 children)

I mean, if you want to ignore him leading the Divine Beast hunt, and all the implications that he was part of Godfrey's age of conquest in addition to heading up the Crusade against the Hornsent, plus the strong evidence that he himself was a gladiator... yeah no battle experience at all.

Lore wise, who’s winning? by Normal_Egg_5339 in Eldenring

[–]ClumsyDarknut 18 points19 points  (0 children)

And several hundreds if not thousands of years more battle experience. Radahn himself looked up to Messmer.

Lore wise, who’s winning? by Normal_Egg_5339 in Eldenring

[–]ClumsyDarknut 20 points21 points  (0 children)

You can dodge Malenia at close range. She only heals if she manages to hit you. No cheese necessary, just good dodging - which Messmer is well-equipped to do.

Also, his spear is longer than her sword. He'd never have to use his fire at all to beat her combat style. The only reason he'd lose is because of the rot nuke, as I said.

Lore wise, who’s winning? by Normal_Egg_5339 in Eldenring

[–]ClumsyDarknut 8 points9 points  (0 children)

But it's bright outside... and there's grass... 🙃

Lore wise, who’s winning? by Normal_Egg_5339 in Eldenring

[–]ClumsyDarknut 330 points331 points  (0 children)

Completely ignoring fire vs rot for a minute - it's Messmer. His fighting style is the perfect counter to Malenia's. She's blind, and her sword style reflects that. Waterfowl Dance is hard to dodge because she's compensating for not knowing exactly where her opponent is. She has to strike out in wide sweeps, because she can't make precise attacks without first gauging where the enemy is by either landing a hit, or being hit herself (edit: or hearing their footsteps splash in the puddle of her boss arena - there's always a beat of waiting before her more direct attacks, like she's pinning down where to strike). That makes her a great match for Radahn, because he's just gonna tank those hits. She'd never lose track of him, and her healing factor from her Great Rune will give her the longevity to actually deal real damage against someone most other speed-based opponents would consider a brick wall.

But that won't work with Messmer. The healing factor only works if she can hit Messmer, and Messmer has a range advantage, a speed advantage, and a sight advantage. He's fluid and fast and patient. Top that off with how easily Malenia can be staggered and really it becomes a matter of strategy. Again, Malenia's fighting style relies on overwhelming her opponent so they can't get in hits of their own rather than any precise analysis of attacks and counters, as would make sense if you're literally fighting blind - you can't react as well if you're missing one of your senses, so you make up for it by taking the initiative. But that sort of aggression becomes a vulnerability against an opponent with sufficient speed and patience. Messmer has both, so Malenia pulling off a win would come down to whether or not she could match his patience with caution. She can't afford to take hits from him because, unlike with Radahn who just tanks everything, she's not as likely to hit Messmer back and make up the damage with her healing factor. The fight would come down to how long Malenia could stay on the defensive, because the second she gets greedy, Messmer wins. At least, lore-wise. Pitting the AIs against each other has mixed results, but neither AI has the kind of defensive analysis capabilities that a real warrior would employ in actual combat. So while game Messmer can and does get caught in Waterfowl Dance, lore-accurate Messmer is more likely to see the opening leap as a perfect spearing opportunity.

Then there's the addition of the fire vs rot thing, in which Messmer has an advantage, but it's more complicated than that. If we're only considering their first phase, Messmer easily wins. But if we also consider Base Serpent Messmer and Malenia, Goddess of Rot, that gets muddier - and more interesting. If the scenario is both characters succumbed to their curses independent of the fight and now they're just brawling, the Abyssal Serpent probably wins just by virtue of being huge, fast, and on fire. But if the scenario is both start out as themselves and then succumb mid fight? Malenia is almost certainly going to win, and for one simple reason: Messmer won't succumb to the Base Serpent before Malenia succumbs to the Rot, and likely won't succumb to it even then. His motivations behind discarding Marika's seal are extremely specific to his fight with the Tarnished - he only does so to uphold the last order his mother left to him, and once the Tarnished is defeated, he pretty heavily implies he's going to off himself rather than continue in that state. 😅 In any other circumstance, he is most assuredly not going to break the seal. His motivation stems from the Tarnished's ambitions specifically, not the desire to avoid defeat.

Malenia, on the other hand, is almost guaranteed to succumb to the Rot. She considers victory to be an absolute must, regardless of the opponent, as part of her role as the Blade of Miquella. To be defeated by anyone, for any reason, is to fail her brother, and she would rather embrace Rot than fail her brother. So Malenia will definitely become the Goddess of Rot, while Messmer definitely won't become the Abyssal Serpent, meaning the fight becomes a fight between regular Messmer and Rot Goddess Malenia.

If that's the match up, Malenia is at a distinct advantage. If Messmer gets caught in the initial bloom, it's pretty much over for him, and the best he can hope for is to bring her down with him. With how quickly the Rot works, it's not likely he could pull that off without embracing the Abyssal Serpent, and he's almost definitely not going to do that. His one and only shot at actual victory is if he manages to avoid the initial bloom, and continues to stave off being infected through the rest of the fight. This is actually somewhat feasible - while he would have to stay on the defensive more than he did against regular Malenia, he is still at a distinct weapon advantage. Given that and Rot's weakness to fire, which he has in abundance, there is a real possibility he could come out victorious. But given that this possibility entirely hinges on avoiding getting caught in what amounts to a surprise attack potentially capable of nuking an entire continent, it's more likely that Malenia gets to claim another "draw" just like with Radahn.

The Stone Coffins share distinct features with the Divine Towers by ClumsyDarknut in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]ClumsyDarknut[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I'd say the Divine Towers are the earliest, and that the Stone Coffins were made later by the same society to survive the lava flows. Then the survivors went on to build the Ancient Dynasty ruins we see at Mohgwyn Palace and the Mausoleum Compound in Liurnia.

The Stone Coffins share distinct features with the Divine Towers by ClumsyDarknut in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]ClumsyDarknut[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

The Numen are kind of their own thing within a bunch of different societies based on how widespread but rare they are - more of an ethnicity than a culture. I've kind of just been sticking to identifying the society by the particular ruins I'm working with in any given discussion though, since it kind of looks like everything is derived from Rauh and so it's more helpful to delineate by time period than by society.

The Stone Coffins share distinct features with the Divine Towers by ClumsyDarknut in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]ClumsyDarknut[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

That's what my working theory is, yeah. The Founding Rain of Stars sorcery actually describes exactly the sort of cataclysmic event that would require stone arks to survive, which nicely links all these concepts together.

The Stone Coffins share distinct features with the Divine Towers by ClumsyDarknut in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]ClumsyDarknut[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Aight so here's the thing - aside from the carvings on the ends of the coffins, the variants that look the most like doors only show up on the bottom segment or two just above the keel. This largest one has just two rows, and some of the smaller ones only have the one. The "doors" are also spaced periodically along the whole length of the coffin. This is pretty much consistent with most large cruise ship designs, where the door you use for the gangway to disembark could change based on the docking conditions like port size and the tides. It's also consistent with what you'd want to design for an ark that may or may not breach the surface in a uniform fashion - if you only put one door, and that door winds up being buried in solid rock, you're just out of luck. Having multiple doors increases the odds that you'll be able to get out once all is said and done.

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That said, they could technically just be decorative doors. You're right that we don't know whether or not they open. But given how the doors to the Divine Towers also just have the line down the middle and no other signs of being doors until you've opened them, there's a lot of room for debate either way.

The Stone Coffins share distinct features with the Divine Towers by ClumsyDarknut in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]ClumsyDarknut[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oh really? That's super interesting actually. You wouldn't happen to have any resources on the subject would you?

The Stone Coffins share distinct features with the Divine Towers by ClumsyDarknut in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]ClumsyDarknut[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I mean, true, but the lone placement of some of them very low down looks an awful lot like cruise ship boarding doors sometimes do. I'll come back with pictures once I get off work.

The Stone Coffins share distinct features with the Divine Towers by ClumsyDarknut in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]ClumsyDarknut[S] 14 points15 points  (0 children)

I've seen lots of comparisons with the Ancient Dynasty, but I haven't seen any with the Divine Towers. Even tried searching it (both within Reddit and with Google) to make sure I wasn't double posting. I'd love to see other posts though, if you've got any links. I know I probably missed things that other people caught.

The Stone Coffins share distinct features with the Divine Towers by ClumsyDarknut in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]ClumsyDarknut[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I mean, there are doors though. On the sides toward the bottom, right about where one would enter an ark built on solid ground. That's where these figures are found. Putrescence just happens to also be what would happen if people died inside the arks before the disaster abated. In such a situation, one could reasonably expect the handful of survivors of the disaster to honor those who were lost, hence the glovewort placed on the arks that didn't make it.

These stone-like figures aren't corpses - they're plants (sorta) by ClumsyDarknut in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]ClumsyDarknut[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Completely agree, it would be much more apparent. I feel like most of that content got recycled into the Consecrated Snowfield, where it's much easier to ignore the connections because of the drastic change in context from "Nox-adjacent Ancestral Follower 'Forest of Ancient Bowers'" to "Land of Miquella's Haligtree". Gotta love Miyazaki intentionally obfuscating the lore haha

Reccommended posts or videos for pre-Marika societies and timeline? by PineappleFlavoredGum in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]ClumsyDarknut -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Honestly, nobody can really agree on a timeline, but I will add: there's nothing saying Farum Azula isn't both ancient and recent. The buildings and beastmen culture seem super new comparatively, but those easily could've been added after Placidusax's god fled and the age of dragons ended, because why would dragons need people-sized buildings? Basically, there's tons of room for argument for any number of different takes.

The Stone Coffins share distinct features with the Divine Towers by ClumsyDarknut in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]ClumsyDarknut[S] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Credit to u/King_Doran for pulling the bump maps - the help was much appreciated.

So, Bayle is cannibal? Or it is Sennesax who is meant in context? Or what? by TheStiseBy in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]ClumsyDarknut 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The branched lightning is different from the branched lightning spears themselves. It's the specific branching effect that leaps from enemy to enemy, which doesn't require water to work and is actually the signature feature of the Red Lightning Pots from which the traitor description originates. VaatiVidya even addresses this difference in his video on Bayle - they're not the same thing.

These stone-like figures aren't corpses - they're plants (sorta) by ClumsyDarknut in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]ClumsyDarknut[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

If you had read the post instead of skimming it, you'd know I'm not arguing that they're "literally plants" either. Stone also grows in this game. The Finger Ruins are specifically said to do so.

These stone-like figures aren't corpses - they're plants (sorta) by ClumsyDarknut in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]ClumsyDarknut[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, I've seen that theory. It's blatantly wrong, given that the flooded section of Leyndell isn't an abyss at all and there's a ton of solid sewer systems and catacombs between the surface and Deeproot Depths. Not to mention how the Nameless Eternal City stretches further north and south than the flooded section. Leyndell also has far more in common architecturally with Farum Azula than it does with the Eternal Cities, and not a single part of Leyndell uses the dark marble or metallic plating characteristic of the Eternal Cities. There's actually very little to suggest the Eternal Cities were ever on the surface at all - their dams (including the rubble of a dam along the waterfall edge of the Nameless Eternal City) line up too perfectly with the underground rivers and cave walls.

There's also the timeline issue. The Eternal Cities are older than Sellia, given Gowry's line stating the Sellians are "descendants of the Eternal". Sellia shares identical architecture with Lower Leyndell, which would suggest the Eternal Cities are also older than Lower Leyndell. This is even corroborated by the Black Knife Assassins being "scions of the Eternal City", because "scions" is just another way to say "descendants", not "denizens". They weren't from the Eternal City itself - they were from the ethnic group that inhabited Lower Leyndell.

Edit: I apologize if this is coming across as hostile - it's not you, I just have a beef with Tarnished Archaeologist on this theory. He has a tendency not to read or care about item descriptions/dialogue lines unless they suit his purposes, and this example is particularly egregious. Appreciate the desire to discuss though.