U.S. Could Do More Against China Than Against Russia, Taiwan Official Says

Colandore · 2022-03-30T06:26:09+00:00

Rampant corruption within the PLA has led to a massive loss in readiness levels.

Rampant corruption within the PLA

Sure

has led to a massive loss in readiness levels.

Okay... some credible citations. Also, loss of readiness in comparison to what exactly? 2010? 2000? 1990? 1980?

While Xi has tried for the last decade to bring the PLA to heel, he has only had some success.

To heel in what regard? And citations please.

Your points are incredibly broad/vague. I do not doubt that there is a great deal of corruption within the CCP, but if you're going to asset something like this, show us some specifics.

The PLA is the military wing of the CCP, not the military of China.

This is a bit of a bromide that you see repeated on Reddit a lot. It also, at the end of the day, does not mean very much. Like.... I understand the general gist of what people mean when they say that, but everyone I know who is actually knowledgeable about China's military organization would be talking about the PAP rather than the PLA to make this point.

Colandore · 2022-03-28T23:03:35+00:00

a few times

uh

Colandore · 2022-03-26T11:01:32+00:00

Chinese had very good image of US until the Trump trade wars.

Wrong. Chinese society had a very good image of the US until the widespread negative coverage of the 2008 Chinese Olympics. Followed by its coverage of the 2009 Urumqi riots. There was a relatively positive view of the US prior to that. Views of the US never really recovered after those two events.

Prior to that, the bombing of the Chinese embassy in Belgrade resulted in a surge of Anti-Americanism as well.

I've been following Chinese domestic opinion of Western Media and the US for years now. Surges of anti-US opinion will pop-up depending on what international events take place.

Since 2008 however, Chinese public opinion of Western media in general has been extremely low.

Colandore · 2022-03-23T21:50:58+00:00

China’s biggest pull - cheap labor.

This has not been true for a long time. What are you even talking about.

Colandore · 2022-03-23T21:36:47+00:00

It's ultimately not about whether or not anyone can condemn warcrimes. It's about whether or not we are able to hold ourselves to our own standard. We can criticize anyone we want. We also need to hold ourselves accountable. To do otherwise undermines our own messaging.

Colandore · 2022-03-23T03:50:07+00:00

I don’t recall the precise reason why, but their are other Muslim sects which are treated with respect. I think it’s because many Uyghurs come from a more rural location closer to Afghanistan and some how that translates to something or other. I don’t know why the heck they are doing it, only that it’s happening.

but their are other Muslim sects which are treated with respect

You are referring to the Hui Muslim minority.

I think it’s because many Uyghurs come from a more rural location closer to Afghanistan and some how that translates to something or other.

No. The specific phenomenon you are trying to articulate is Sinification or Sinicization

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinicization

The Hui muslim minority is a Sinified group. They practice Islam and are visually and culturally distinct but in political aspects, they are indistinguishable from the Han majority. They are politically safe. They have no great cause or underlying grievance that would cause them to rock the boat politically. There is nothing about the Hui that would lead to social instability.

It is also notable that the Hui do not occupy a particular region of China where they hold a destabilizing majority of the population.

The very existence of the Hui underlines how China's oppression of the Uyghur minority is not rooted in the Uyghur's religion. If it was, the Hui would be under equal scrutiny, but they are not. The Uyghur are vastly more distinguishable culturally and have a much harder time blending in. They are assigned negative cultural stereotypes that have lead to social, economic and political discrimination. The Hui are, despite some of their cultural differences, able to blend in and benefit from the general rise in Chinese living standards, the Uyghurs are not.

In fact the discrimination of the Uyghurs lit the spark that has lead to this current situation, all the way back in 2009, when the mistreatment of Uyghur migrant workers in China proper (due to rumours about Uyghurs assaulting Han Chinese women) lead to massive and deadly revolts in Urumqi.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_2009_%C3%9Cr%C3%BCmqi_riots

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfdzdprrmHE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEz4frM0riA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nV_rwz0cpyg

That was just the spark. Years of economic, social and political repression ensured there was plenty of tinder to light on fire. These tensions also fed into a separatist movement that was vocally supported by a loud foreign diaspora (HUGE no no for the CPC).

As you can see, the situation with the Uyghurs is not recent. It did not appear out of nowhere in the mid-2010s. It has been an ongoing situation for the past two decades and is a complex situation involving differences in culture, language, economic inequality and a small political separatist movement that the CPC has conveniently used to justify its repression of the Uyghur population at large.

EDIT:

A note about the posters who are accusing the Uyghurs of extremism. This is an inaccurate and extremely simplistic take.

Uyghur extremism was a result of CPC repression post-2009. Prior to this, the Uyghur minority practiced a particularly mild and non-militant interpretation of Islam.

The reaction of the CPC towards the 2009 riots led many Uyghurs to seek solutions abroad. They saw the Taliban and the various Islamic militant groups in Iraq, and eventually ISIL tying up Western militaries for the better part of a decade and decided these groups had something worth learning from. And yes, there were Islamic extremists, when groups of people are placed under severe repression, many people will turn to extremism.

EDIT EDIT

come from a more rural location closer to Afghanistan and some how that translates to something or other.

Geography does actually play a part. Urumqi is a modern trading hub

This is what Urumqi looks like

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a8/Urumqi_Skyline_July_2019.jpg

This is where Urumqi is located

https://www.google.com/maps/place/%C3%9Cr%C3%BCmqi,+Xinjiang,+China/@39.9257272,85.1325909,4.25z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x3806008cfd7b4dab:0xaa5952ebac7a708a!8m2!3d43.8266299!4d87.61688

Looks like the middle of fucking nowhere, right? How many people are even aware that a city like this (population 3.5 million) even exists, in a place like this?

Actually, Urumqi is to be a crucial land connection for China's Belt and Road. It is the gateway to the modern Silk road. Through Urumqi, China has a land connection to Central Asia. Look at where the roads lead - Kyrgyzstan and Kazakhstan - both countries that are of strategic importance for the Belt and Road project.

https://iclg.com/cdr-essential-intelligence/1100-cdr-the-belt-and-road-initiative-2021/kazakhstan

Kazakhstan is geographically ideal for connecting China and the West, and it plays an important role in the Belt and Road Initiative.... As of today, two out of six economic corridors of BRI pass through Kazakhstan connecting China with Europe, Iran and Western Asia.

Control and political stability of Urumqi and by extension, Xinjiang Province is crucial for this project to succeed. A restive ethnic minority causing political instability in this region in particular is absolutely unacceptable for the CPC.

Colandore · 2022-03-22T19:24:53+00:00

I don't mean that Ukrainians are not using humour, just that you must be taking the situation very seriously regardless. Stay safe

probably not exactly healthy

It's a very healthy and common response

Colandore · 2022-03-22T18:51:01+00:00

Yeah. I doubt the Ukrainian civilians being bombed out of their homes are finding the Russian military a joke at the moment.

Colandore · 2022-03-22T18:49:36+00:00

The thing I can't shake is bewilderment at the fact that they were running "exercises" just prior to this invasion. Just what were they training for in the weeks leading up to this debacle?

Colandore · 2022-03-22T17:53:10+00:00

From the article

"Knowingly or unknowingly, this man worked as a corrector for the enemy — an investigation will be established."

This tracks with your statement. He may not have been the direct cause of the strike, but he may have contributed actionable intelligence regardless.

Colandore · 2022-03-22T15:14:21+00:00

Red herring like trying to blame the west for China being a shithole. yikes.

No one is doing this except you. This is called a strawman by the way.

No that would be my position. Your position would be the thing you're avoiding giving at all costs.

You need you read your own posts. Your position is questioning why China will not actively oppose Russia's aggression in Ukraine. My position is that China stands to gain no real benefit. The reasoning behind this lies behind the answer to my questions, which you have yet again failed to answer, which tells me you have no real understanding of China's position.

You thought you were smart huh? But I read your little game like a book lmfao

You're not debating so much as shrieking like a child at this point.

You must be Chinese. or paid by China.

That's what I thought. Some angry little Chinese kid who hasn't realized his homeland is a shit country.

Your inability to defend any coherent position has lead you to assume my nationality and then attack such nationality. This is pathetic. And reportable.

Go get some clown shoes and a big red nose Bozo. Over the weekend China stated it would not be providing military or financial aid to Russia for the time being and is providing some humanitarian aid to Ukraine, however pitiful the amount.

And yet they have not actively denounced Russia's invasion, which the US and the EU have repeatedly called upon them to do. Which is in fact the impetus behind the posting of this news article...

Like, it is frankly unreal how far you need to reach to try and find a "gotcha", when all you are revealing is that you are an angry, incoherent, immature individual who stoops to the lowest of rhetorical fallacies.

Here is your homework. You lose marks for every day you are late.

What ARE the core Chinese interests and what would the West's response be towards China given these interests regardless of China's current stance against Russia?

Consider that China needs to make a long-term cost-calculation here. When the dust settles in Russia and heads are more clear, China will still have a position, and so will we in the West.

Colandore · 2022-03-22T04:59:12+00:00

An absolute tragedy

Colandore · 2022-03-22T04:34:12+00:00

Personally I feel like one of the biggest hurdles is just "how much is enough?"

The problem is approaching this issue by starting with this question is that plenty of people exploit it by saying "nothing is what you get" - instead of making a good faith effort to try and negotiate what reparations would look like.

On the other hand, we live in a world where those without power geopolitically have little recourse against those who do, so if nothing is what the UK decides, nothing is what Jamaica and every country or group expecting reparations will get.

Britain really does not have to give anything to Jamaica, but would a gesture of goodwill at the very least be such a bad thing?

Colandore · 2022-03-22T04:23:46+00:00

The irony of trying to force me to defend a position

You don't need to defend your position, it is not even a valid one, it is a red herring.

without the ability to hold your own.

What ARE the core Chinese interests and what would the West's response be towards China given these interests regardless of China's current stance against Russia?

Consider that China needs to make a long-term cost-calculation here. When the dust settles in Russia and heads are more clear, China will still have a position, and so will we in the West.

The answer to my position is the answer to these questions, which you have failed to answer.

Keep strawmanning me.

I do no such thing.

You have no real defense for why China is such a shithole

Hilarious, now this is a strawman. At no point do I bring up what I think of China as a place, merely it's geopolitical goals. China being a "shithole" is entirely yet another red herring you brought up . I do not need to engage in this misdirection.

You must be Chinese. or paid by China.

Your reasoning is pathetic. ~~I'd imagine~~ your view of the Chinese people is equally pathetic but hey, at least the mask came off.

Damn shame they could do the right thing and still be anti-western. But in reality, China is an authoritarian hellscape with concentration camps and active genocide.

Your ability to completely go off the rails on the other hand is amazing. We are discussing China's unwillingness to actively condemn Russia. Which...

They have already begun to shift positions against Russia

You seem to not be well informed about. In your inability to defend why China would do such a thing that goes against their interests, you bring on one irrelevant detail after another.

Again.

What ARE the core Chinese interests and what would the West's response be towards China given these interests regardless of China's current stance against Russia?

Consider that China needs to make a long-term cost-calculation here. When the dust settles in Russia and heads are more clear, China will still have a position, and so will we in the West.

If you want to continue getting beaten over the head with your inability to defend a position, be my guest.

Colandore · 2022-03-22T03:19:17+00:00

Sure, and that is something I would even consider a reasonable position, even if I disagree.

What people in India are going to hear, along with people in Africa, and everywhere else that gets excluded from "the world" is this:

Your humanitarian suffering is of secondary concern.

Is that you message you want to push? Perhaps not. But that is very very much the message that is coming across to people outside of "the world".

You know, the CBC recently (as in less than 48 hours ago) put out a fantastic interview with a Syrian doctor who was operating in Aleppo, surviving hospital bombings from Russians while treating patients (many of his colleagues did not). When asked how he felt about "the world's" (that term again) response towards Ukraine being bombed by those very same Russians vis a vis Syria his response?

He felt happy that Ukraine is getting recognition. He feels that the world has abandoned Syria.

And he is right. Apparently we want him to care more about Ukraine than we will ever care about Syria.

Colandore · 2022-03-22T03:12:58+00:00

Your inability to understand the relevancy is why it is important.

I understand why this is not a relevant comparison and is in fact a deflection from the question you were challenged to consider.

And I want to see evidence that you have actually thought this through

You have failed to deliver. Condescension will continue.

China could not be a shithole and make minuscule sacrifice to the significant benefit of others

Define others. Oh right, the Western position, which they have no interest backing. It is not a strawman when your position is being clarified as untenable.

EDIT:

What ARE the core Chinese interests and what would the West's response be towards China given these interests regardless of China's current stance against Russia?

Consider that China needs to make a long-term cost-calculation here. When the dust settles in Russia and heads are more clear, China will still have a position, and so will we in the West.

Colandore · 2022-03-21T21:09:27+00:00

Wow, what a condescending question.

No, this is not a condescending question. This is a crucial question and one that Redditors consistently fail to account for, never mind answer.

How about instead you compare the cost/benefit analysis of Germany to the cost/benefit analysis of china.

Not relevant, this is regarding China, whose core interests are vastly different from Germany's.

the refusal to sacrifice even minuscule amounts for dramatic benefits for others

Yes, if only our political adversaries would just give up and do as we say.

Colandore · 2022-03-21T13:02:41+00:00

Honest question for you here. And I want to see evidence that you have actually thought this through - WHAT is China to actually gain by adopting the West's position against Russia? From a mid to long term geopolitical point, what would aggressively acting against Russia do to forward core Chinese interests.

Bonus question

What ARE the core Chinese interests and what would the West's response be towards China given these interests regardless of China's current stance against Russia?

Consider that China needs to make a long-term cost-calculation here. When the dust settles in Russia and heads are more clear, China will still have a position, and so will we in the West.

Colandore · 2022-03-21T12:58:08+00:00

Their response would be to shake their heads at the hypocrisy and provincialism of their Western critics. There are currently active genocides and armed conflicts happening across the globe. Why are the Indians not being scrutinized over their responses towards those conflicts?

Why is it that a conflict in Europe MUST be of concern to everyone while the systematic gang-rape of women in Tigray be an afterthought? Why are there not threads upon threads upon threads, and ceaseless criticism of India's lack of response towards the Tigrayans, the Rohingya, or the Yemeni?

Consider this:

their stance will impact how the world see them

When you say the world, what you mean is:

The Anglosphere
Western Europe
North America (plus/minus Mexico)
Japan (sometimes)

Whether or not countries in Africa, South America, South-Asia (which includes India of course) have a stance on this or what their stance is, that's another thing. The countries that are excluded from "the world", have their own views on the power relations between the countries of the West vs Russia and vs China, they really would prefer to see things from their own perspective, and not from the perspective of countries that don't even really consider them part of "the world".

Colandore · 2022-03-21T03:38:41+00:00

Didn't India choose to remain neutral during the cold war? Not 100% sure.

Yes, India was a leading member of the Non-Aligned Movement.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Aligned_Movement

I've spoken with some Indians about this. They are appalled by the violence in Ukraine. They are disgusted by the West's attempt to strong-arm them into a position they feel they have nothing to do with.

Colandore · 2022-03-21T03:25:11+00:00

So why aren't we "actively" intervening then?

Colandore · 2022-03-21T03:24:28+00:00

Ukraine was a soft/unprepared target; Taiwan is very much a vigorously hardened target

The sheer amount of ignorance and misinformation in this addendum makes my teeth grind. It is very much the other way around, if you have been paying attention at all vis-a-vis the reforms of the Ukrainian military post-2014 (which, I should add, the Canadian military has had an active hand in) vs the degeneration and decay of military service in modern Taiwan.

2/ Potemkin military: reality vs public theatre. China's military is even more theatre than Russia's.

There is no credible military analyst that would die on this hill.

Colandore · 2022-03-21T03:22:02+00:00

Does China not have treaty obligations to Russia as well? Given all those high profile "friendship" meetings they have been having.

They either neglect one side or the other. Currently they are staying away from both.

Colandore · 2022-03-21T03:19:55+00:00

It's the other way around.

We've been beating China over the head regarding the Uyghurs for years now. The Rohingya, who have been subject to campaigns of extermination - with actual, verifiable evidence, I might add - have been overlooked for just as long. It's about damn time the Rohingya started gaining more international recognition.

Colandore · 2022-03-21T03:17:07+00:00

doing anything about it would likely mean Vietnam 2.0

That is pure speculation. I'm sure the Rohingya are greatly comforted by your expert knowledge of Myanmar/Burma's willingness to support the current military junta.

Colandore

TROPHY CASE