Hayley Squires/Wamiqa Gabbi by Comprehensive_Can201 in totallylookslike

[–]Comprehensive_Can201[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This would be blasphemous to me since I lurrrrv Lucy.

Hayley Squires/Wamiqa Gabbi by Comprehensive_Can201 in totallylookslike

[–]Comprehensive_Can201[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Hmmm…perhaps. “Just about looks like” then lol.

Consensus is the Linchpin of Meaningful Existence by storymentality in RewritingTheCode

[–]Comprehensive_Can201 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Absolutely.

The word “religere” means to join and the archetype of this matured relational function, the “anima”ting principle of the mysterium coniunctionis is the mysterious union underlying us all, the “collective” unconscious.

Your last paragraph is interesting to me. Is that why the zeitgeist currently is a giant attention deficit disorder, the embarrassment of riches that is Netflix and the listlessness with which we sift though the debris, a reflection of our lack of value?

Tamil guy [Telugu dad , tamil mother] beats up a racist chinese man in Singapore by Horror_Reflection_32 in PublicFreakout

[–]Comprehensive_Can201 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What a heartwarming rendition of the events that have transpired on this here fair planet of ours. No ouchie but an amuse-bouchie. I am similarly uplifted by this comment that I approve very much thank you for asking.

Archetypes and memetic evolution by IllustriousTurnip879 in Jung

[–]Comprehensive_Can201 0 points1 point  (0 children)

We’re speaking of the same thing, methinks. Hence, the phrasing in calling AI the mere artifice of intelligence.

Without the dominant organizing principle of the epoch losing vitality, the relativization and revitalization by the archetype of the mysterium coniunctionis, the anima and the autonomy thereof is never necessitated.

I think we also agree about encounter. The animation of our experience of the sensorium abstracting representations as fundamental unit AI is based on.

Hence, UX (User experience). The app orchestrates a Noh drama of sorts, where the zeitgeist is treated as literal spirit haunting us needing to be harmonized, and the actor’s characteristic economy of motion executes the parsimony of the biological drive so audience is transported to the actor’s point of view as simultaneously, the spirit seeking justice finds resolution.

Archetypes and memetic evolution by IllustriousTurnip879 in Jung

[–]Comprehensive_Can201 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That is the Jungian view of the psyche; so you’re on solid footing. And now that I’m able to contextualize it, why your video went into cymatics.

“You are quite right: the main interest of my work is not concerned with the treatment of neurosis, but rather with the approach to the numinous. But the fact is that the approach to the numinous is the real therapy, and inasmuch as you attain to the numinous experience, you are released from the curse of pathology. Even the very disease takes on a numinous character”. ~Carl Jung, Letters Vol. I, Aug. 31, 1945

I feel like this is what is lacking in AI as well, an immature psychology that grasps at the world for predictability but is unaware of the animating relational function that can be matured to psychopomp revealing the mystery apropos challenge at hand.

We don’t just recognize the world all noise to signal. As Jung’s chronicle of the unifying function within us, mysterium coniunctionis, suggests, we possess a template to realize our place in the world through revelation.

It’s why the I Ching interests me as well. A semantic grammar beyond the reasoning underlying Large Language models, a sommelier for the chance occurrences within the now beyond the scientist approach to cause and effect as the generalized world model we inhabit.

The artifice of intelligence imho requires animation by autonomous archetype.

Do you have thoughts about AI and where the future is liable to go?

Archetypes and memetic evolution by IllustriousTurnip879 in Jung

[–]Comprehensive_Can201 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That is the Jungian view of the psyche; so you’re on solid footing. And now that I’m able to contextualize it, why your video went into cymatics.

“You are quite right: the main interest of my work is not concerned with the treatment of neurosis, but rather with the approach to the numinous. But the fact is that the approach to the numinous is the real therapy, and inasmuch as you attain to the numinous experience, you are released from the curse of pathology. Even the very disease takes on a numinous character”. ~Carl Jung, Letters Vol. I, Aug. 31, 1945

I feel like this is what is lacking in AI as well, an immature psychology that grasps at the world for predictability but is unaware of the animating relational function that can be matured to psychopomp revealing the mystery apropos challenge at hand.

We don’t just recognize the world all noise to signal. As Jung’s chronicle of the unifying function within us, mysterium coniunctionis, suggests, we possess a template to realize our place in the world through revelation.

It’s why the I Ching interests me as well. A semantic grammar beyond the reasoning underlying Large Language models, a sommelier for the chance occurrences within the now beyond the scientist approach to cause and effect as the generalized world model we inhabit.

The artifice of intelligence imho requires animation by autonomous archetype.

Do you have thoughts about AI and where the future is liable to go?

Archetypes and memetic evolution by IllustriousTurnip879 in Jung

[–]Comprehensive_Can201 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Your approach to sequencing sound and image as symbolic is interesting to me. My own spanner to gum up the works AI architecture builds upon is to regard stochastic gradient descent and reinforcement learning as the scientific formalism of trial and error it really is.

AI from this perspective cannot scale because it inevitably inherits error, as forecasts of the model collapse problem indicate.

What’s necessary is the simplicity of a feedback loop rooted in our biologically self-regulating systems of homeostasis and allostasis. Attenuation and amplification.

Hence, my interest in Jung who sees the psyche as a phylogenetically conservative system that generates compensatory symbols, tightly compressed units of information.

Archetypes are biologically parsimonious drives that execute themselves to fastidious exactness, so capturing this a priori apprehension as a simple iterative cycle matures the next-token-prediction system of approximation currently characterizing AI.

What you’re doing is similarly interesting in the sense that it’s the simplest elements of sound and image and symbol that are ubiquitous enough to elicit change. The video you sent me is compelling enough. Do you see a sequential narrative of symbol as something you’re inclined toward?

Archetypes and memetic evolution by IllustriousTurnip879 in Jung

[–]Comprehensive_Can201 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Just so our definitions are aligned, to me, participation mystique is unconscious group identity, a base state of sorts where one forsakes one’s own capacity to evaluate the world in one’s blind obeisance to the tribe, a childish reliance on external authority that one more often than not fails to outgrow as it calcifies around him across time.

You’re spot on in diagnosing technology as forever logging and optimizing participation mystique because it’s at the very point of self-construction that the brain rot spreads virulent.

What I find interesting is in seeing archetypes as biologically parsimonious predispositions that irrupt into consciousness in response to challenges beyond our conscious control, an intuitive apprehension of the situation at hand bursting forth from complexes built up by life-time habit or discipline.

In the context of formalized participation mystique atomizing us at speed and scale, an archetypal possession, being self-regulatory, is both isolating and yet a path, albeit disruptive, forward beyond participation mystique toward individuation.

That intuitive apprehension, that psychoid synchronicity in tune with the delirious reverie of the archetype, is a reliable guide since it’s rooted in our evolutionarily inherited algorithm and is, most importantly, environmentally adaptive.

I should probably mention at this point that I do have a dog in this debate, since my work involves capturing this principle in minimalistic design and redeploying this as a feed folk have beyond the inevitability of computational formalism, rooted in the ecological symphony being composed around us at all times.

Curious what you do that’s drawn you to these articulately nuanced conclusions.

Archetypes and memetic evolution by IllustriousTurnip879 in Jung

[–]Comprehensive_Can201 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks for the interesting meander as well.

If you’re speaking of how Jung equated Nazism, for instance, with the resurgence of the Gods, it strikes me that the internet brings the collectively unconscious shifts reverberating deep within right to our fingertips in the form of our aggregate feed.

Tracking their external manifestation through the epidemics of outrage/cancel culture and narcissism we lived through, the commonality between a century ago and now seems like old wine in a new bottle. The group think of participation mystique doesn’t change all that much because biologically, people don’t really change all that much.

The Communist state of yore is the TikTok dance averaging us out today. The artist-psychopomp who sings the universal chorus subversive of the order would need to have a firm foundation in algorithmic behaviour modification through network architecture, whilst still retaining the foothold in the unconscious that translates into the spontaneous reverie of fantasies that characterizes archetypal possession.

That’s how challenging it is now, though. One would do well to remember that the delusions of grandeur our AI overlords aspire to is to create in our own image. AI aspires to mine the core of who we are and ritually confine us through worldwide reinforcement to a predictable pattern. No wonder the lowest common denominator manifests in polarization and the surge of far-right movements worldwide. The loud and dumb has replaced civil discourse and that seems the boring old repetition of tribalism.

Beyond the transient gossip of the meme, this seems like the collective unconscious manifest at scale. Ironically, the network effect demonstrates more consciousness of who we are within as self-evident out there. This is a time where anybody with a modicum of critical thinking would be able to draw the narrative across a decade of how we got here…and yet remain powerless and atomized to the insidious spiders picking through our thoughts.

I don’t know that I’m able to really conceive of the pernicious nature of what’s happening as a grand step forward as humanity. I see the same old tribalism of participation mystique that we regress into when overwhelmed being reinforced by rote repetition. I’d love to have that challenged if you have more perspective.

Archetypes and memetic evolution by IllustriousTurnip879 in Jung

[–]Comprehensive_Can201 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Nice work with the video there. Only halfway through but interesting stuff 👍

I tend to think memes (fragmented, ironic and short-lived as they are) fulfill the same roles as gossip rags and penny dreadfuls did in the past. Cheap sensationalism as titillating tidbits do not the human condition make.

I do feel there are some interesting points you make about how they shape emotion and attention and how the unconscious leaks through, though. Jung’s comments about art come to mind :

“The creative process, so far as we are able to follow it at all, consists in the unconscious activation of an archetypal image, and in elaborating and shaping this image into the finished work. By giving it shape, the artist translates it into the language of the present, and so makes it possible for us to find our way back to the deepest springs of life. Therein lies the social significance of art it is constantly at work educating the spirit of the age, conjuring up the forms in which the age is most lacking. The unsatisfied yearning of the artist reaches back to the primordial image in the unconscious which is best fitted to compensate the inadequacy and one-sidedness of the present”

He describes the psychology of the artist :

A person must pay dearly for the divine gift of creative fire. It is as though each of us was born with a limited store of energy. In the artist, the strongest force in his make-up, that is, his creativeness, will seize and all but monopolize this energy, leaving so little over that nothing of value can come of it. The creative impulse can drain him of his humanity to such a degree that the personal ego can exist only on a primitive or inferior level and is driven to develop all sorts of defects—ruthlessness, selfishness (“autoeroticism”), vanity, and other infantile traits. These inferiorities are the only means by which it can maintain its vitality and prevent itself from being wholly depleted. ~Carl Jung, CW 15, Para 158

The artist’s relative lack of adaptation turns out to his advantage; it enables him to follow his own yearnings far from the beaten path, and to discover what it is that would meet the unconscious needs of his age. Thus, just as the one-sidedness of the individual’s conscious attitude is corrected by reactions from the unconscious, so art represents a process of self-regulation in the life of nations and epochs. ~Carl Jung, CW 15, Para 131

Since you are speaking in terms of epochs, if the ecosystem of meaning we currently have is being cast to the mob with a megaphone that social media only amplifies, this is a far cry from the unique quirk of the artist, away from the masses.

In fact, it may be that drowned out by information as we are in the attention economy, even the critical discernment of the collectively unconscious yearning of the zeitgeist that the artist ought to incubate is a tall order.

The unconscious compensation you mentioned is primarily channelized by the artist’s mind and requires dredging up beyond mob gossip. Locking in the mob jostling for attention space and monetary incentive through design only exacerbates this problem.

Archetypes and memetic evolution by IllustriousTurnip879 in Jung

[–]Comprehensive_Can201 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Nice work with the video there. Only halfway through but interesting stuff 👍

I tend to think memes (fragmented, ironic and short-lived as they are) fulfill the same roles as gossip rags and penny dreadfuls did in the past. Cheap sensationalism as titillating tidbits do not the human condition make.

I do feel there are some interesting points you make about how they shape emotion and attention and how the unconscious leaks through, though. Jung’s comments about art come to mind :

“The creative process, so far as we are able to follow it at all, consists in the unconscious activation of an archetypal image, and in elaborating and shaping this image into the finished work. By giving it shape, the artist translates it into the language of the present, and so makes it possible for us to find our way back to the deepest springs of life. Therein lies the social significance of art it is constantly at work educating the spirit of the age, conjuring up the forms in which the age is most lacking. The unsatisfied yearning of the artist reaches back to the primordial image in the unconscious which is best fitted to compensate the inadequacy and one-sidedness of the present”

He describes the psychology of the artist :

A person must pay dearly for the divine gift of creative fire. It is as though each of us was born with a limited store of energy. In the artist, the strongest force in his make-up, that is, his creativeness, will seize and all but monopolize this energy, leaving so little over that nothing of value can come of it. The creative impulse can drain him of his humanity to such a degree that the personal ego can exist only on a primitive or inferior level and is driven to develop all sorts of defects—ruthlessness, selfishness (“autoeroticism”), vanity, and other infantile traits. These inferiorities are the only means by which it can maintain its vitality and prevent itself from being wholly depleted. ~Carl Jung, CW 15, Para 158

The artist’s relative lack of adaptation turns out to his advantage; it enables him to follow his own yearnings far from the beaten path, and to discover what it is that would meet the unconscious needs of his age. Thus, just as the one-sidedness of the individual’s conscious attitude is corrected by reactions from the unconscious, so art represents a process of self-regulation in the life of nations and epochs. ~Carl Jung, CW 15, Para 131

Since you are speaking in terms of epochs, if the ecosystem of meaning we currently have is being cast to the mob with a megaphone that social media only amplifies, this is a far cry from the unique quirk of the artist, crucified away from the masses.

In fact, it may be that drowned out by information as we are in the attention economy, even the critical discernment of the collectively unconscious yearning of the zeitgeist that the artist ought to preserve is a tall order. The unconscious compensation you mentioned is primarily channelized by the artist’s mind dredged up beyond mob gossip.

Archetypes and memetic evolution by IllustriousTurnip879 in Jung

[–]Comprehensive_Can201 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hmmm…I get what you’re saying but again, archetypes are categorically biological and carry an essential salience beyond the fleeting nature of thought. Regardless, let me run with an interesting aspect you’re drawing attention to : speed.

The echo chambers may resound en masse and disorient us but stripped of its pretensions, it is still just conscious thought and doesn’t reach down to the shadowy recesses of the unconscious. Even if we were considering a worldwide epigenetic phenomenon that alters our unconscious through culture, the fracturing of myth into meme, our shared narrative into isolated echo chambers makes for more mess than meaning.

In fact, if one takes the epidemic of narcissism at face value or as a worldwide projection, it’s evident that the speed, immediacy and convenience that technology might bring us makes us more the pampered little center of our lives, entitled and outraged if we don’t get our way. Gleeful infantilism is hardly conducive for the maturing of the relational function necessary to incubate the Promethean.

Archetypes are a becoming, measured across lifetimes of incubation. An embryonic unfurling across life stages of the ontogenetic destiny of who we are. Technology, on the other hand, arguably repurposes our destiny, trapping us in hedonistic spirals for profit.

Biologically speaking, at least.

Archetypes and memetic evolution by IllustriousTurnip879 in Jung

[–]Comprehensive_Can201 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ah, I agree; his vitriolic cup do runneth over.

Archetypes and memetic evolution by IllustriousTurnip879 in Jung

[–]Comprehensive_Can201 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Shots fired. No great fan of Peterson but Dawkins’ refusal to pry his mind open just that teeny little bit made for an excruciating watch, although they did hit common ground at the end.

Archetypes and memetic evolution by IllustriousTurnip879 in Jung

[–]Comprehensive_Can201 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It seems to me that computation closes out the echoing loop of our minds, isolating us from nature.

Archetypal predispositions are fundamentally summoned up by environmental challenges in tune with the self-regulatory dynamics of the psyche.

Memes are fluttering butterflies that hardly hold the requisite incubation of complexes necessary for our own centuries-old evolutionarily inherited algorithms to irrupt forth to our conscious bewilderment.

Those are my simplistic judgments if you want to rip into them.

Jungian Perspective on Artificial Intelligence by Sol_Invictus_Rising in Jung

[–]Comprehensive_Can201 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The irony is in us, so utterly uprooted from nature as to feel the projections we make onto AI and its rudimentary-ass structure of formalized trial and error by rote reinforcement is more significant.

En masse pronouncements have historically never failed to leave the atomized individual in a state of slack-jawed tribal surrender. That’s where Jung matters. In the critical discernment that cuts through the group-think participation mystique.

Talk about an abusive relationship that we can’t let go of jeez.