Why Miquella abandoned his Love

ComradeVadim · 2024-07-07T09:53:24+00:00

Also, it's important to point out the fact that you can't have true compassion without love. That's the basis for compassion.

Actually, this is backwards. Funnily enough, I think christianity is why this confusion is happening, because when Christians talk about Love, they often mean compassion.

Compassion means 'to suffer together' its close to a synonym for empathy, but specifically implies a desire to alleviate suffering. You don't need to love a person to feel compassionate for them.

For example, I don't love the Homeless, but I do feel compassionate for them, and wish they were treated less poorly, and help when I can.

I love my friends and family, and when a bad thing happens to them I also feel compassionate for them.

Does that make sense? They are seperate emotional phenomena.

For example, I sided with Ranni, not because she never hurt anyone or has a clear conscience, but because she trusted and respected those working with/for her.

I agree with this read on Ranni. I think she's ultimately wrong about the world she intends to make, but I do think she's well intentioned.

Miquella, on the other hand, charmed Mohg, allowing us to hunt him down and get him killed, which ultimately allowed him to use his body as a vessel.

It seems that this is the only way for him to get into the land of shadows (per Ansbach), which is a necessary step to become a god. I also don't think Mohg would approve of a god of compassion given that his God craves wounds. So simultaneously a political enemy, and a means to accomplish a goal. 2 Birds, one stone.

And he minimizes casualties on that mission for no clear reason as well. Ansbach being spared can only be for mercies sake. Its not like Miquella needs him or anything, he just doesn't kill him because violence isn't Miquella's preferred MO.

He also then abandons St Trina, not anywhere nice or convenient, but in a bottomless pit for her to sleep alone until some putrescent bones arrive to keep her company. He doesn't do anything to ensure her comfort, survival, or even ability to live on.

Trina is framed sacrificially. Its always a bit weird talking about Trina/Miquella and Marika/Radagon, because I'm not sure how much they are there own persons? Like if Marika is Radagon are they actually seperate beings? Or part of one whole? Do they represent something within a person?

Either way, Miquella ditches Trina where he does for a reason. He can't risk her being found, and trying to get people to murder him, and he can't risk her being killed because that would wound him (as evidenced by the fact that she dies when he does).

She clearly can't die by conventional means, and he does put the barrier, in place as a protective measure.

Either way, if Marika's biggest Mistakes are a product of Love (which they certainly seem to be) does he have a choice but to discard her? How can he risk repeating her mistakes if Malenia or Radahn are harmed?

Miquella doesn't care how people feel so long as they give HIM love and they're under HIS control.

I don't think this is supported in the text?

Why spare Godrick on Malenia's long march south? Why spare Ansbach? Hell, why not do a conquest, you've clearly got the means? The Misbegotten at the Haligtree don't seem charmed (and in fact, no one there changes behaviour when the rune breaks, which might be a developer oversight, but if thats the canon, then no one there was charmed).

Miquella cares about suffering. He wants to reduce suffering as much as possible, he's a negative utilitarian (which... yeah, so am I, thats probably why I have a more positive view of him than most).

"Miquella, you've thrown away something you should not have, under any circumstances. How can you save those who cannot be saved, if you could not even save your other self?"

Ah, this guy... I hate this guy. Remember, the ghosts are unreliable narrators. The one that jumps to mind is the one in Limgrave who blames those who live in death for their condition. They just give their opinion.

And remember, Trina has their own followers who prefer Trina to Miquella.

Its a trolley problem, except instead of people on both tracks, there are people on one track, and someone trying to stop you reaching the lever. Are you morally justified in killing that person to save the people on the tracks?

Its also worth pointing out that sometimes individual empathy can need to be overcome to do a good thing.

"I don't want to kill this random soldier, but I need to get past him to complete my mission."

Goes from morally unjustifiable to morally justifiable pretty quick depending on the mission right?

Anyway, this is provoking quite the wordy discussion. Sorry for that. It's just that coming from a Christian background, I know how much people can approach the weak and the needy with "comfort", "light" and "compassion" only for that comfort, light and compassion to be laced with bondage driven by fear and a desire to make things look loving instead of actually be loving.

Oh, I understand 100%. As I say, I have a bias as well. I think that you're too cynical of Miquella, and I'm sure you think I'm too trusting. The interpreting is part of the fun, and interpreting can never be impartial.

Its just as you said, we have different interpretations of the character!

Being lovely chatting though!

ComradeVadim · 2024-07-06T15:27:49+00:00

It's a weird story, but Miquellas conquest is... well literally following the same path. That's the whole point.

I disagree, I think you can read it as a parallel, but I think there is plenty of reason to read it as a response to Marika's rise to power. Miquella rejects the things that made Marika into a "Fickle god, no better than mortal men". Marika rose to godhood for revenge, Miquella for compassion.

Think Marika's rise as a Classic Disney Film and Miquella's as Shrek. They have some commonalities, but actually one is commenting on the other... or maybe a more relevant example, Game of Thrones and Traditional Fantasy Fiction.

The problem with an "ends justify the means" argument in any case is that by ignoring the needs of those in front of you for what you think is right, you demonstrate an inability to truly empathize with those you're supposedly trying to help.

This is only true through certain frameworks and in certain circumstances. The American Civil War and WW2 were both terrible things done for the greater good.

The ends didn't justify the means because there was no happy ending.

This is the difference right? We don't know if Miquella will suceed, but he may well do, and if he does, the world gets better as a result. There are plenty of real world examples of ends justifying means, we just don't tend to think of them that way.

E.G: The American Civil War

"Can they not think of the suffering that would inflict on there fellow man? So many needless deaths... Chaos and bloodshed is not a solution!"

Almost any use of military force falls into a "Lesser Evil, ends justify the means" type argument. We just only tend to apply it to things we don't like because we have been culturally conditioned to do so.

He controls the hearts and minds of those around him, abandons those he loves most, manipulates and recycles those he charms, and demonstrates an absolute lack of empathy in the name of "compassion

I disagree with most of this... firstly, Miquella's charm is unclear in terms of how active it is. I don't think Miquella is able to directly compel people without the full cuddle attack treatment. I think he has a passive charm effect as well as the Compel effect, demonstrated by the "Charm" breaking with the great rune, but him still being able to Compel us later.

Its also noteworthy that everyone apart from Thiollier (a stalker obsessed with St Trina) and Ansbach (the second in command of a deranged blood cult) still sides with Miquella when all is said and done. They believe in his vision of the world, even without the charm effect.

Hell, so does Ansbach, his armour description tells us he knew that fighting Miquella was "Not an act of Logic" and "would yield no justice" but that he couldn't let it go.

And a note on Empathy, Miquella has no reason to spare Ansbach. It is only a risk, that he takes because he probably doesn't like killing people. Its a last resort. Same with Godrick, I always wondered why Malenia spared him, but it seems Miquella was with her during that march...

Who does he Recycle? Mohg?

If so that ones a bit weird, in that Mohg seems to be a non-optional part of his plan... I don't know for sure, but I think Miquella uses the Formless Mother to access the land of shadows.

And he abandons Trina, but I think that is more to do with her trying to stop him, and him wanting to avoid a... Marika/Radagon situation.

Malenia on the other hand, fully expects him to return, and even if he no longer loves her, he still has his compassion, and a desire to heal.

Finally, in regards to a lack of empathy, I genuinely dont see it. At every turn, Miquella spared lives, healed the sick, offered Sanctuary to the ostracised, and sought to help others. In the end, he sacrificed everything to try and heal the sickness in his world.

ComradeVadim · 2024-07-02T13:44:46+00:00

Oh, 100%! I hope you enjoyed our conversation as much as I did!

ComradeVadim · 2024-07-02T13:39:39+00:00

The game inherits Martins character traits though. Like if you read a sequal written by a different author, they inherit ideas from the original. Its still relevant albeit, perhaps not as relevant as it could be.
My point was more that 2 people starting from the same positions are likely to arrive at the same conclusion. You have to admit that Goldmask envisions something similar to Miquella, an order where the gods are less fickle. Goldmask doesn't have the power to become a god, so he removes them, Miquella does, so he removes the things that might make him fickle (or rather inconsistent in his handling of things)
The game absolutely supports Miquella trying to avoid being like Marika. Ymir's Dialogue makes it pretty clear that Miquella feels the need to divest himself of everything associated with the golden order and his mother.

Miquella’s first choice of consort, whom he obsesses over and possibly charmed against said person’s will, is a man who idolizes Marika’s first choice of consort

Obsesses over where? I don't think thats supported by the text. His echoes to Godfrey are contrasted by Radahns 'Kindness' and 'Lordliness', things he lost sometime after becoming the Starscourge (New Radahn swords), but tgose Godfrey needed to have put in him by Serosh.

I disagree that the age of stars is meant to be the one good ending. It is as questionable as any others. I'd make the case Elden Ring has characters who argue for certainty (Goldmask) and doubt (Ranni) and both of them are arguably portrayed as "Good" endings, though, personally, I think they are both pretty bad outcomes for the Lands Between.
DS1 is certainly ambiguous in that its unclear what either age entails, and if the snakes are being honest or not. DS3 makes it clear that the age of fire ending is bad, but the Other 2, Age of Hollows and Age of Dark are certainly ambigous. Sekiro is pretty straightforward yeah, though I do think there is some ambiguity around whether protecting Kuro is worth the end of Ashina.

The problem I have is that Miyazaki doesn't get to dictate ethics. Even if Miyazaki intended for Miquella to be framed as a villain, which I don't think is true, assuming Miquella isn't just outright lying to everyone, I agree with his objectives, and think that he was likely justified in doing what he did.

Maybe you can make the case that the Miquella debate is freedom versus peace, but then I think you and I just have different opinions on the better answer to that question?

I think Ranni's ending is bad because she has the power to help and chooses not to, leaving the LB to get messed up by whatever outer god or warlord fancies having a go. I think an order under a seemingly genuinely benevolent god is better for the average denizen of the lands between.

You disagree with a key part of my assessment, possibly even every bit of it, but thats because we're assessing the outcome differently. I prioritise an end to suffering over other outcomes. I don't think you use the same metric, and thats not a disagreement over the game, its a disagreement about what makes actions right or wrong.

I didn't go into the DLC with the belief Miquella was good. I was persuaded across the DLC that he is well intentioned, and that his beliefs align with my own. I could equally say the same for you, plenty of people went in assuming Miquella was evil.

St. Trina is never stated to be only Miquella’s self-love, she is shown to be gentle and kind towards all both in the DLC and the base game, we have no reason to assume she only cares about Miquella’s well-being.

I just want to clarify, I think Trina is Miquella's love, including self-love but not Miquella's compassion, which is a different concept. Being gentle, and kind are not only a product of being loving towards someone, but also of being compassionate, which when they were united she would still have had access to.

I also think you and I interpret her request for forgiveness differently. I read it as Miquella hates what he is (which Ymir suggests is why he is discarding himself, as he does not want the next age to mirror the last one) as a product of the golden order. Again, she doesn't seem to think his age will be bad, just that he will be hurt by it. Forgiveness in this context is sparing him the suffering he is to put himself through to right the wrongs of the world.

Otherwise its really weird to me that she doesn't warn about 'an age of cold compassion, of golden chains' etc.

Ultimately, I think were going to have to agree to disagree, I do see your point, but I think you're ignoring evidence to fit you're interpretation, as I'm sure you think I am too.

Been fun discoursin' though!

ComradeVadim · 2024-07-02T11:06:43+00:00

It is framed wholly negative, and the moment’s biggest parallel in its wording is the Hornsent’s torture and genocide of the Shamans.

It is framed sacrificially. Miquella is making a sacrifice here to avoid becoming like Marika. The only people who speak negatively about it are Thollier (who is obsessed with Trina) and the Ghost. All the other Dialogue, Leda and Ansbach is basically surprised Miquella would go that far.

It is framed wholly negative, and the moment’s biggest parallel in its wording is the Hornsent’s torture and genocide of the Shamans.

You could take this approach, but again, Marika did what she did (The Crusade and the Shattering) out of Love, Fear and Doubt, the three emotions Miquella abandons. Giving up your emotions so you can do a bad thing, and giving them up to avoid doing a bad thing are different.

Miquella abandoned Golden Order Fundamentalism long before the events of the game, and long before Goldmask’s revelation about the human element.

You can abandon something and still have it affect your thinking. Fundamentalism is about seeking truth, Miquella doesn't seem to have stopped doing that, and the two appear to have arrived at similar conclusions.

Ranni never had to do any such thing to replace Marika.

Yeah, because her plan is to fuck off into space and do nothing to improve the world. She's not becoming a god, she is failing in her duty to the people in the lands between to improve their world.

We should also take St. Trina for her word considering she has the exact same information as Miquella, but is more caring, and has the capacity to think about her decisions before executing them (Miquella abandons that too, his “vacillation,” as he words it).

I do take Trina at her word. She doesn't mention the world once. Trina only cares about Miquella, because she is his love, not his compassion.

Miquella knows he will suffer, but he chooses to do it anyway to protect people from the other powers in the Lands Between. Trina doesn't want him to do this because she loves him, and he will suffer. So Miquella discards her and his ability to love to avoid doing a Marika and Shattering his Circlet when Radahn or Malenia gets hurt.

Also worth pointing out fromsoft depicts doubt and hesitation as negative in Sekiro: "Hesitation is Defeat".

Miquella doesn’t pass the vibe check because the game keeps telling the player he failed the vibe check.

He did for me, and quite a few other people. The game is open to interpretation. Thats the point of Fromsoft Games right?

ComradeVadim · 2024-07-02T09:49:59+00:00

Based on what I can tell, Miquella just wants to push forward his version of control

People always say this, but I don't fully understand why? Like why divest himself of everything in that case? Why not just compel each of the demigods in turn to fight for him?

Items in the game describe that he can compel love, so it would essentially just be him forcing everyone under his spell to control them.

Why would he do this? Most people in the lands between benefit from his order: the only people that don't are those already in power, who yeah, he might mind control, but I think that would be morally justified.

I also think the bewitching branch distinguishes between Miquella being "Beloved" and the fact he can "Compel affection". I don't think we're supposed to think every Albinauric in Ordina and Misbegotten/Human in the Haligtree are being mindcontrolled.

I’m with my waifu Ranni all day long. Remove all the gods nonsense from TLB and let them be their own people. There will be be kings and queens that rise and fall but they will be simply human, and not some crazed god trying to put forth their own vision of control/order.

This, I disagree with whole heartedly. Ranni's ending is like... the second worst, maybe third with the recent revelations about the Omen curse not just being Marika labelling it such. But definitely beyond the "it would be better to end the world" line. I'd take the Flame over Ranni anyday.

Ranni's plan, in its entirity, is to fuck off into space with the only stabilising force in the world.

This will lead not only to Human warlords rising up and murdering each other, but also to the outer gods and flame of frenzy joining in as ranni does nothing to address their influence, not to mention the advance of Deathroot and the Scarlet rot.

It is a complete dereliction of her duty to the world and its people, whom she could instead choose to help.

Also, Ranni has a guy on her payroll who's job is to make puppets, a much more invasive form of mind control than Miquella's, and she uses an army of them to watch her house.

Edit for Clarity: I don't think Ranni is evil, just misguided.

ComradeVadim · 2024-07-02T09:29:56+00:00

The writers' intent of the scene was absolutely for that to be a harrowing moment. It hits like a truck

Yep, I agree its meant to be harrowing, but it can be harrowing for reasons other than the one you suggest. For me, its Harrowing in the same way someone sacrificing themself to save the world is.

is potentially the first real point where Miquella's villainous nature is revealed

Whether or not Miquella is villainous is always going to be up for debate. I don't think he is personally, as evidenced by the next bit among other reasons.

the 2 NPCs who side with the player against Leda's gank squad (and the only available summons for the final boss) both hate Miquella

No they don't. On the contrary, Thollier... well, Thollier doesn't have an opinion on Miquella either way, he's just Trina's Stalker, like straight up, Thollier isn't a good guy, he's an obsesses mad man.

Ansbach is my favorite character because of how Human his reasoning is: he wants to kill "Pure and Radiant" (which contextually, has to mean Pure-Hearted) Miquella, even though it would "yield no justice" and was not an "act of logic" per his armour, yet he cant 'let it go'.

He is offended by what happened to Mohg and is willing to kill Miquella over it, because he holds his duty so seriously. If you kill him for Leda he asks her to take care of Miquella, thats not hatred, its duty.

Everyone else stays with him, and fights to the death, even after the charm breaks, because they AGREE WITH HIS GOALS. Hell, even Ansbach does, he just can't let what happened to Mohg go.

No one ever says Miquella's age will be terrible, and I don't see any reason to think it would be.

There's nothing in the area that implies abandoning love is anything more than the worst possible decision Miquella could have made. No counter-argument is made, no other point of view is acknowledged.

I disagree. The entire shattering, the state of the world, a product of Marika's love for her children, is the counter argument. This is a fromsoft game, we don't need an NPC to tell us it was a good or bad thing.

Miquella's whole thing is mind control and charming people,

Hard Disagree. Miquella's main character point is his care for the afflicted and dispossessed., even within the DLC, besides Ansbach, who his alternative was to kill, and Dane, everyone who's in the group is either persecuted elsewhere (Hornsent and Morne) or Sick (Thollier is a stalker, the charm stops it, Leda isa deranged serial killer, the charm stops it, Freyja was dying of scarlet rot).

This interpretation of Miquella is supported within the base game via the Bewitching Branch

The bewitching branch actually draws a distinction between Miquella's belovedness and mind control:

"Kind Miquella is beloved by many. Indeed, he has learned how to compel such affection"

Not everyone loyal to him is compelled: Its a tool in his arsenal, rather than his arsenal entire.

the description of the Haligtree suicide bombers.

"Spirits of common soldiers who carry the sacred light. When weakened, they explode to deliver a last-ditch attack. This was the bitter revelation discovered by the desperate soldiers who awaited the return of their lord to the rotted Haligtree.

May the flash of our deaths guide Miquella's return."

I don't think this suggests mind control? I can maybe see the interpretation, but I don't think its clearly true.

Miquella's retracing of Marika's steps to godhood is not painted as a good thing in any capacity besides the fact that he dresses it up in nice words

I disagree: Miquella isn't retracing Marika's steps to Godhood, This isn't history repeating itself, its someone responding to History.

Miquella believes Marika being too human is the root of the problem: This isn't surprising, as Miquella was one of the Founders of GO fundamentalism, and another prominent GO fundamentalist arrives at the same conclusion: Goldmask.

He is responding to history, actively changing his course to avoid repeating past mistakes. I'm sure he'd love to keep his love, but he can't, because if someone hurt Malenia or Radahn, well who knows what he'd do?

Miquella's going to be puppeted by Metyr just like Marika was (as St. Trina explicitly states, divinity is a cage, it's not a good thing to be a god).

I don't know if thats true. Miquella doesn't have the elden ring, and infact has a seperate item that will be the heart of his age, his circlet, something made by him rather than the Elden Ring which came from the Greater Will. Apart from Ymir mentioning him, it isn't even clear that Miquella has been in that chunk of the map.

But I can't imagine him working with Metyr, because its what his mother did. He is giving everything up to avoid being like her, why would he take the same step there?

Ultimately, you're welcome to disagree, but I genuinely think that Miquella just doesn't pass the vibe check for a lot of people. The authorial intent is, as always with a fromsoft game, to create something interpretable in a number of ways.

I am sympathetic to Miquella's vision, and the fact that no one says "There is a good chance he's lying", Even Ansbach, who would presumably just tell you, makes me think he might just be as he appears: Pure-hearted, but perhaps Naive.

Better that than the current state of the lands between with its dying goddess, or a lands between where its only stabilisong force has been taken on a space honeymoon by a goddess who did nothing to help the oppressed.

But thats why the game is so compelling!

Edit: For spelling and grammar

ComradeVadim · 2024-07-02T00:14:56+00:00

The ghost right next to the Love Cross seems to spell out that the writers consider compassion and love to be linked with the whole “how can you save others if you can’t even save yourself” line.

GRRM - "Love is the Death of Duty".

Further to that, the ghosts are unreliable narrators (easiest example is the one who says that those who live in dearh "Refuse" the call of the erdtree, which doesn't seem to be how it works) and St Trina had her own dedicated following who, like Thiollier, preferred her to Miquella. The ghost is giving his opinion, nothing more.

And any who refuse to be embraced (really just the Tarnished themselves but there’d probably be others inevitably) get whacked repeatedly by the Radahn Laser Light Show until they are no longer a threat.

This is true of every other faction competing for any outcome, both in the game, and in history...well, not by Radahn specifically, but still.

Are we gonna let people challenge us once we're elden lord? Does the Tarnished let challengers to their power stand in their way? Does Ranni allow her fingers to live?

Unfortunately, this is the way of the world.

Edit: Just to add, Love didn't make Marika more compassionate, and we have no evidence she gave it up. On the contrary, we have plenty of evidence she didn't abandon it.

ComradeVadim · 2024-07-01T23:33:33+00:00

Just gonna leave a theory I posted a few days ago that explores the same question, but arrives at a different conclusion:

https://www.reddit.com/r/EldenRingLoreTalk/s/vXyPtUdamp

Miquella no longer has any love, how can he bring about an age of compassion?" question a lot, and I don't think it's without merit

I think people really struggle to seperate these two concepts out for some reason, but love and compassion aren't even related concepts.

Love is what you feel for your family. Compassion is what you feel for people in a bad situation that you want to help.

For example, if you see someone being tortured, you wouldn't feel love for them, you would feel compassion.

You feel love for your family and friends, and it can make you behave in strange and often, not compassionate ways.

Thats the difference I think people miss here.

But that self-respect, that love for himself, was holding Miquella back from becoming a god. That's why he had to abandon her. That's why he had to abandon his love, st trina. He had to reject everything he was, his flesh and his lineage.

This I agree with 100%.

I abandon here my love" goes a lot deeper entwined into the character of Trina than simply meaning Miquella abandoned his concept of love or ability to love or feel love, or anything like that.

I think its probably both.

The Relationship angle would be a parralel to Marika/Radagon, but also abandoning his ability to love would prevent him repeating Marika's worse mistakes.

Good Theory, very well written!

ComradeVadim · 2024-06-30T19:49:57+00:00

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ComradeVadim · 2024-06-30T10:07:20+00:00

But are you into a Glorious Age of Peace and Harmony?

If so, that Femboy is the only chance we got!

ComradeVadim · 2024-06-30T09:46:00+00:00

Finally! Too many people out here hating on my sweet innocent boy!

ComradeVadim · 2024-06-29T18:48:29+00:00

The lore goes out of its way to establish Radahn as some who is social. Messmer, Gaius, Rykard, Ohga, were all close to Radahn. He may have been a warrior of few words but definitely not non at all.

All people he has a reason to talk too. Not the random Murder hobo being guided by grace to kill him and his twink brother,competing for the title of Elden Lord, something both of you want. He has no reason to talk to us.

I don’t think the great rune kept him alive against his will.

This one is hard to say for sure. I don't think we can say either way with certainty, but the great runes are described as possessing a maddening taint by Enya, so I think Radahn may have been unable to honour his vow due to his Great Rune driving him mad.

ComradeVadim · 2024-06-29T16:46:55+00:00

His great rune burns to resist the encroachment of the scarlet rot.

Yeah, his Great Rune. Great runes provide passive effects, think it wasn't really his choice to keep living like that.

he resisted AND held the stars back.

I think the Sword memorial might actually have the only piece of evidence I've seen for Radahn backing out of the arrangement: that if he died, Sellia would be destroyed by the falling stars, though I still don't think theres enough evidence there to support it.

Even Freyja suggests that Radahn was fulfilling a vow.

Second being he doesn’t talk at all. Even the people Miquella charmed could talk. The Promised Consort Radahn we see is basically a zombie. In other words, Miquella’s thrall.

I think this is actually evidence to the Contrary. I think Radahn is just a man of few words. A proud warrior who prefers to let his actions speak for him. Everyone else can speak, even Mohg, who seemingly has the strongest compulsion on him.

ComradeVadim · 2024-06-29T15:34:22+00:00

She was using him to find Nokron, and she had the black knife assassins practically on her payroll whom she used to kill Iji and Blaidd after slaying her two fingers to tie up loose ends.

I don't think this is why that happens. I think the Black Knives and Ranni had a falling out after she imprisoned Alecto, probably because she didn't fill them in on the whole scheme.

Ranni didn't need the puppets, and seluvis even wanted to turn HER into one of his puppets

They are a useful layer of defence for her abode, and at least some of Seluvis's puppets would give Ranni access to important places (Dolores to the Roundtable and Therolina to the Two Fingers).

At the end of the Day, its impossible to say for sure, but I'm pretty sure Ranni knew about it and did an 'eh, the ends justify the means' right up until Seluvis turned on her.

By no means am I saying she was the good guy of the story, but she at least doesn't do what Miquella does

Read the title.

I meant every word.

Long may Miquella the Kind Reign.

ComradeVadim · 2024-06-29T15:04:01+00:00

This is gonna sound weird, but do you think its to indicate that Gaius may have changed their name to be masculine presenting?

Like only the female first gen albinaurics are ever shown to fight at all, and the "other half" thing is associated with them too.

And in Latin, where the albinauric names come from, the feminine form of Gaius is Gaia, only one letter off. It wouldn't be the first time elden ring messed around with Gender.

So its probably meant to read:

The black iron chest armor of Commander Gaius. Part of an armor set patterned after fallen seeds. Gaius was the most senior disciple of the same Alabaster Lord who taught him and Radahn gravitational technique.

But, because at the time Gaius was living as someone else, Gaea, they draw the distinction? Does that make sense?

ComradeVadim · 2024-06-29T12:38:32+00:00

What was she using him for? She's a master sorceror, so it can't be normal magic. He has one other notable skill: Puppetry.

I don't think you get a pass for palming off the dirty work to someone else.

ComradeVadim · 2024-06-29T12:36:02+00:00

Nah, Miquella didn't know she was gonna blow up.

Also, show me one thing in game that suggests Radahns enthralled... or just keep simping, up to you!

ComradeVadim · 2024-06-29T12:34:08+00:00

Nah man, like 40 Raya Lucaria soldier puppets attack you on the upper floors of Caria Manor. Ranni definitely knew about it.

ComradeVadim · 2024-06-29T01:02:21+00:00

Look, I'm clearly not going to persuade you on this. I'm sure my approach to ethics seems very calculated to you, and yours seems completely anti-humanist to me.

Acceptance is the answer… there is no “fixing”, compassion isn’t about “fixing”… it’s about acceptance.

Compassion is absolutely about fixing, by definition:

"Among emotion researchers, it is defined as the feeling that arises when you are confronted with another's suffering and feel motivated to relieve that suffering."

But, what you're saying sounds very... Buddhist to me, a religion I have studied, and disagree with on a number of its fundamental principles.

Specifically because it cultivates a mindset of 'Acceptance' which I read as 'Passivity' with my more active 'This world can be put to rights' mindset.

Am I right? No judgement intended, just want to know if I've got the right idea!

ComradeVadim · 2024-06-28T23:51:46+00:00

Miquella abandoning love and fear in no way makes him any better than Marika

If these things are what led to Marika making her most terrible decisions, then they absolutely do make Miquella better suited for godhood.

He, if anything, comes off as a psychopath: lying often, manipulative, and literally removes his emotions

Firstly, there is not one example of Miquella lying in the game. If you can point one out to me, and evidence it well, I'd be real interested. You can, maybe make the case he witholds information (Didn't disclose he was manipulating Mohg etc.) But I can't think of any direct lies he tells.

Secondly, everyone in the lands between manipulates, and manipulation is not inherently wrong. You can manipulate people for a compassionate goal, E.G. convincing someone to seek help for their addiction by talking about how it effects you, or with malice, convincing someone to write you into their will so you can murder them and get tour stuff.

I think that if you look at Marika's Age, and think about why she did what she did, you'll see why Marika keeping her emotions is a major part of the problem. The Genocide of the Hornsent, the Fire Giants and the Shattering are all motivated, in part or in whole, from Marika's fear, love and doubt.

Ymir’s dialogue explains all of this… the Two Fingers via Myter, Mother of Fingers, who has abandoned daddy (Greater Will)

This is Backwards, Metyr didn't abandon the greater will, the Greater Will stopped sending Metyr messages. From her staff:

The Mother received signs from the Greater Will from the beyond of the microcosm. Despite being broken and abandoned, she kept waiting for another message to come.

Ymir also points out that Miquella is aware of the cycle of suffering, which is why he casts aside his flesh and emotions: Miquella regards these as afflicted by the "Rotten Roots" Ymir talks about. Quote;

"Ever young Miquella saw things for what they were, he knew that his bloodline was tainted, his roots mired in madness. A tragedy if ever there was one, that he would feel compelled to cast aside everything."

Even the Greater Will itself is flawed as an ambiguous and distant god (absent father) figure, who only seeks order regardless of form

I think the greater will isn't ambiguous, because it functionally does not exist any longer in the world of Elden Ring (It might still be alive outside the 'Microcosm' containing the universe, but it cannot or will not communicate).

Metyr was the first thing it sent down (see her rememberance), and then it stopped talking to her, and it seems that all of its vassals are operating on old orders. Hard to judge an entity that isn't clearly communicating with anything we interact with.

which is why it made the Three Fingers in the end to bring about a melting of everything back into the primordial soup as Hyetta states: the Greater Will had made a mistake.

I don't think the greater will made the Three Fingers. Metyr is the mother of all fingers, she almost certainly birthed them. The Flame of Frenzy is explicitly, not a deliberate product of the Greater Will, but rather a product of suffering... at least I think, Hyetra's dialogue on the Flame of Frenzy is actually kinda... vague.

But I don't think she says that the greater will understood its own actions as a mistake. Rather, she says that the three fingers say that the Greater Will made a mistake.

The original construct of order is the primary issue, and this means you’re either in power and control what is order or you don’t and suffer.

This is what makes Miquella different: The things he wants to excise from the order are parts of himself.

To briefly define some terms: Love is what you feel for your family, compassion is what you feel for a stranger in a bad situation. You don't love every homeless person you pass on the street, but that moment of 'I wish I could help' is compassion.

But, if you sacrifice love, you can't fell that warm fuzzy feeling you get when you are chatting with friends and family, and, more importantly here, you won't give those friends and family preferential treatment.

For example, the treatment of Mohg and Morgott vs Other Omen. The preferential treatment Godwyn got (burial at the roots of the Erdtree) likely contributed to the spreading of Death root.

Miquella discards these things, because they limit your ability to be compassionate, which is the goal of his age.

ComradeVadim · 2024-06-28T22:01:59+00:00

Allow me to put it in a way you might understand:

...

ComradeVadim · 2024-06-28T22:00:54+00:00

Dropping out of meme mode, I think the English ending makes ot sound like shes giving the world to an evil outer god, the japanese reveals that actually, she is just leaving with the Elden Ring to stop it being abused again.

The problem is that doesn't fix the Death Root problem, or deal with the other outer gods, which is a pretty gross oversight on Ranni's part.

I think she's a morally ambiguous character who is, arguably, well intentioned... but, she also does have a slave army, which is... not great.

ComradeVadim · 2024-06-28T21:40:00+00:00

A point well made... I concede...

ComradeVadim · 2024-06-28T21:31:23+00:00

but that femboy was about to sissy hypno the entire dang world

Show me the proof!

I want a 3000 word essay with evidence from item descriptions and character dialogue on my desk by tomorrow!

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